Looking for some info on using a summit brand wiring harness for a 69 RR with upgrade electronic ignition. I will try to make this short. A friend of mine is putting an x race car back on the street, mostly complete except having issues with the wiring directions that came with the wiring kit. Another guy installed the wiring but can't get it fired up, so I looked at it. All the wires are stamped to locations, but I'm puzzled on why we have no spark coming from the dist. We have the starting circuit working,(it cranks). There is only 3 wires at the starter relay. two on the Hot post and one that's right above it. I looked on the relay and there is an ign. side and grnd. Not sure what the other one is for a total of 4. Only 2 are used at this point. When the key is on the run position, with the cap removed and the point on the reluctor is slightly moved, you can hear a buzzing noise but no spark between the reluctor and the pick up, thus no spark out of the high tension wire from the cap. Pick up coil was new about 3 years ago and worked fine then. It appears to me that we have current going to the dist, but loose it in the cranking side. I looked throughout the aftermarket harness for other wires but found nothing but a white wire stamped exciter with it and goes to the one side of the resister. Factory wiring schematic shows the 4 wire resister but his shows only the 2 post resister being used with the harness having terminals installed. Also I'm a little confused with the field wires from the alt. One goes to the voltage reg. and the other field wire ? Alt has 2 field wires and the hot bat post. Been out of the old school Mopar wiring a few years and mostly forgot more than I can remember (lol) just trying to help out a fellow Mopar guy who I helped convert over from the darkside. Sorry for being so long, but the aftermarket schematics has me a bit confused at this point. If anyone has used this wiring please in the past the help would be greatly appreciated, trying to get this thing fired up, engine in question is a 383.
Wiring?
- Thread starter 75ddart
- Start date
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67Dart273
Well-Known Member
EDIT. Noticed you have 3 terminals you said. The push on terminal comes from the key, is the start signal
STARTER RELAY....the two push on terminals are the coil. They are electrically interchangeable. On an automatic, one goes down to the neutral safety switch (middle terminal) on the trans and becomes grounded in park / neutral.
On pre- 70 stick cars, if you have a 4 terminal relay, just ground one "push on" terminal. On 70 / later cars, the 4th push on was grounded by a switch on the clutch pedal.
The other push on terminal gets the start signal from the key.
Big stud is battery, small exposed "square" screw feeds the starter solenoid. These last two are the relay contacts
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IGNITION...... Older factory ECUs were "5 pin" and must use a 4 pin resistor. Most / all replacement ECUs are 4 pin. A 4 pin box can have either 4 or 5 physical pins and can use either a 2 or 4 pin resistor. It's simply that the 5th pin is a dummy
In the diagram below, if you have a 4 pin box the left side of the resistor, the green going to the ECU is not needed / not used. NOTICE the upside down U at the bottom of the resistor drawing. This properly orients the resistor (which is two resistors in one housing) to get the proper one IE they are different values
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SPARK.....If you crank engine by jumpering the starter relay, you get a weaker spark as the resistor is still in the circuit, see below. You will NOT get a spark at the reluctor in the distributor. Try wiggling all connections and make ABSOLUTELY certain that the ECU is GROUNDED
Try running a clip / jumper lead from battery to coil + and see if you have spark. Inspect all connectors, the resistor, the ECU, and especially the distributor. "Work" them in/out to scrub the terminals. Check reluctor gap with a .008" (inches not metric) brass feeler. Inspect the reluctor and pickup for strike damage, debri, and heavy rust.
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IGNITION SWITCH.......... Notice "ignition 2" This may not be hooked up, AND MUST BE .....Clip a meter to coil+ and crank the engine USING THE KEY. You should get "same as battery" at coil+ when cranking, and in no case less than 10V
For a temporary "fix" run a clip lead from a battery source (starter relay battery stud) direct to coil+ and see if you have spark
NOTICE that the start circuit from the ignition switch is not shown........it is IMPORTANT to understand that the 'start' which feeds the starter relay and the 'brown bypass' (IGN2) are DIFFERENT and isolated contacts on the switch. Otherwise, there would be a feedback problem
To explain further, all Mopar ignition switches are really SEVERAL separate switches. They are accessory, ignition run (IGN1), start, and bypass (IGN2)
Many of these aftermarket harnesses do not or poorly document the IGN2 wire.
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FIELD WIRING......... Also covered in the diagram below, Either field connection at the alternator is interchangeable. Notice that one field goes to "ignition run" as well as the one post of the regulator. MAKE SURE the regulator is GROUNDED. The remaining (green) coming off the regulator goes to the remaining field terminal at the alternator.
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Can you provide a Summit part no. and is there a place we can download the original destructions?
STARTER RELAY....the two push on terminals are the coil. They are electrically interchangeable. On an automatic, one goes down to the neutral safety switch (middle terminal) on the trans and becomes grounded in park / neutral.
On pre- 70 stick cars, if you have a 4 terminal relay, just ground one "push on" terminal. On 70 / later cars, the 4th push on was grounded by a switch on the clutch pedal.
The other push on terminal gets the start signal from the key.
Big stud is battery, small exposed "square" screw feeds the starter solenoid. These last two are the relay contacts
==========================================================================
IGNITION...... Older factory ECUs were "5 pin" and must use a 4 pin resistor. Most / all replacement ECUs are 4 pin. A 4 pin box can have either 4 or 5 physical pins and can use either a 2 or 4 pin resistor. It's simply that the 5th pin is a dummy
In the diagram below, if you have a 4 pin box the left side of the resistor, the green going to the ECU is not needed / not used. NOTICE the upside down U at the bottom of the resistor drawing. This properly orients the resistor (which is two resistors in one housing) to get the proper one IE they are different values
===========================================================================
SPARK.....If you crank engine by jumpering the starter relay, you get a weaker spark as the resistor is still in the circuit, see below. You will NOT get a spark at the reluctor in the distributor. Try wiggling all connections and make ABSOLUTELY certain that the ECU is GROUNDED
Try running a clip / jumper lead from battery to coil + and see if you have spark. Inspect all connectors, the resistor, the ECU, and especially the distributor. "Work" them in/out to scrub the terminals. Check reluctor gap with a .008" (inches not metric) brass feeler. Inspect the reluctor and pickup for strike damage, debri, and heavy rust.
===========================================================================
IGNITION SWITCH.......... Notice "ignition 2" This may not be hooked up, AND MUST BE .....Clip a meter to coil+ and crank the engine USING THE KEY. You should get "same as battery" at coil+ when cranking, and in no case less than 10V
For a temporary "fix" run a clip lead from a battery source (starter relay battery stud) direct to coil+ and see if you have spark
NOTICE that the start circuit from the ignition switch is not shown........it is IMPORTANT to understand that the 'start' which feeds the starter relay and the 'brown bypass' (IGN2) are DIFFERENT and isolated contacts on the switch. Otherwise, there would be a feedback problem
To explain further, all Mopar ignition switches are really SEVERAL separate switches. They are accessory, ignition run (IGN1), start, and bypass (IGN2)
Many of these aftermarket harnesses do not or poorly document the IGN2 wire.
=============================================================================
FIELD WIRING......... Also covered in the diagram below, Either field connection at the alternator is interchangeable. Notice that one field goes to "ignition run" as well as the one post of the regulator. MAKE SURE the regulator is GROUNDED. The remaining (green) coming off the regulator goes to the remaining field terminal at the alternator.
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Can you provide a Summit part no. and is there a place we can download the original destructions?
I can try to get a part number for the kit, but from what I have looked through the directions it appears to be a all fit type of kit with breakdowns for different makes. I did try going from the start relay hot to the pos. on the coil by jumping at the relay and with his cranking with the factory switch, still no spark from the dist. Been looking at the factory wiring schematic and it has more than this aftermarket kit. The kit does give the wire color crossover. I'm trying not to even look at the factory wiring and going strictly off of the AM kit as a new build ect. My 75 dart is all stock and has all 4 posts being used on the start relay. He has a 2 wire resister and I believe a 5 wire ECU, it's aftermarket as well. I know this gave me a headache last week trying to figure this out. Looks simple with all the wires being marked, but just feel something is either not hooked up right, or a wire is installed in the wrong position.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
That won't work if it's truly a 5 pin ECU, but it could be either
Only way to tell is to take a meter and "ohm" from the 5th pin to all other terminals and ground, to determine if the pin is a dummy
Boil the thing down to the simplest terms. Simplified diagrams:
Check the resistor. For testing, you can even bypass it. Get a bag of clip leads from Radio Shack if you don't have.
Make DARN sure the ECU is grounded. Scrape the mounting ears and firewall, or add a ground wire and use star lock washers.
Wiggle / inspect connectors. Suspect the distributor connector. You can hook a multimeter -- on low AC volts--- to the two distributor wires and crank the engine. The distributor pickup should generate about 1V AC
If anything extra is hooked to the coil.......like a tach or a radio capacitor, unhook it. Coil, with key on, not cranking will read anywhere from below 6V to around 8V on + side. Neg. side should be very low voltage. This is getting grounded through the ECU. That is, just like points, the coil draws current with key on.
If you hook a meter or test lamp to coil NEG and crank the engine, the light should flash, meter should jump indicating coil NEG is being switched on/ off by ECU. Don't forget---coil itself could be bad
In the diagrams below, these are poorly drawn. "Existing wire" is "ignition run." The bypass circuit is not shown. the brown "IGN2" should come to the coil + side of the resistor.
Don't make this harder than it is. On a 4 wire box, to lay it out on a bench and make it work you have only 4 wires and ground:
HOT goes to Coil + and the ECU
GROUND goes to the box
The box has a wire triggering coil neg. This works the same as points
The other two wires are coming to the box from the distributor
Older 5 pin setup
Not sure on the ECU, but I do remember seeing the 5 pin connector,so when I go in Monday I will take along my OHM meter and check pin 5. I also have a spare 4 wire ballast to take along. I do remember that the aftermarket harness has only 2 wires going to the 2 wire ballast that he has on the car now, with one of those wires having 2 wires going into one of the terminals. I know this type of kit has probably been used hundreds of times on new builds/street rods ect using Mopar power so the harness shouldn't be an issue. I'm just trying to go through someone elses deal and try to figure it all out for him. I'm still not sure what the white wire in his harness goes. It's stamped exciter and is now wired to another wire going to the ballast, but the aftermarket schematic shows it going to one side of the voltage reg.. The aftermarket schematic shows one field wire coming from the alt going to the votage reg and the other field wire going to this exciter wire which I guess makes sense. That exciter wire then goes into the wire bundle and terminates in the fuse block. At this point my main objectives is getting good ignition and the charge system figure out. Crank side seems ok, because it does crank.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
That's why I asked if you have a link to a download for this harness
The exciter wire is most likely nothing more than "ignition run" and may be on a separate fuse. Check that it is "on" with ignition
"Exciter" is generally a GM term as the newer integrated 3 wire GM alternators needed an "exciter" on terminal 1
The exciter wire is most likely nothing more than "ignition run" and may be on a separate fuse. Check that it is "on" with ignition
"Exciter" is generally a GM term as the newer integrated 3 wire GM alternators needed an "exciter" on terminal 1
HotLines
Realist - Free Thinker
Wonderful description… I rid my vehicle of all those wired parts and installed a GM HEI distributor coil in cap for the clean de-wired engine compartment look which is problem free, good luck with your 50 year headache...
Don't have a link to download, I do know when I first started looking at this to figure out what goes where the exciter wire had another wire connected to it for length and it was going to the one side of the resister which is wrong, should be going to the one field wire from the alt. I did text the friend of mine and found out that his other buddy is a GM guy who initially did the said wiring, and hasn't come back I guess he is scared or confused so I'm trying to figure this out and get this car running. I do feel more confident when I go in on Monday to look at it again. Will post updates of my progress, Thanks.
Yea, I agree with the 50 year headache,(LOL) Nothing I like more than to go in where other's have been and failed then try to correct their mistakes. Been out of this old stuff to long as I posted I probably forgot more than I remember. It appears simple enough, but trying to rid the cobwebs out of the brain does indeed give one a headache. I told the friend of mine that electrical work is both time consuming and tedious at times and takes patience. :banghead:
HotLines
Realist - Free Thinker
Same here 75ddart, at 70 years old, problems will just shorten my life and I refuse to play games except with my 50 year old lady whose been around for the past 30 years 
Same here 75ddart, at 70 years old, problems will just shorten my life and I refuse to play games except with my 50 year old lady whose been around for the past 30 years
I used to be into these old cars years ago, but then started wrenching on the newer stuff at dealership years ago then ran my own shop until the economy started to go down, again years ago. Glad I got out of it when I did, anyhow I have for the most part I don't (tinker) with cars much anymore so when something comes up from the past I have to do a little asking, and head scratching to figure things out. Now I just do it for the fun, did I say fun ? More like a headache, but if it helps another guy get his project moving forward then I' m glad to help when I can. if I can.
UPDATE: A few days ago I posted about helping with some wiring issues. Monday I went after it again and went through the various checks that were posted on here along with using his shop manual he found. Everything checked out ok so I went further back into the wiring. The problem was no spark coming to sparkplugs, so basically the issue was on the ignition side. Crank side was good but, no spark. Found and intermittent ignition switch malfunction. Stands to reason, 40 + year old factory switch, new one on the way. Can't wait to get this thing fired up, hopefully in the next few days. Thanks to all, for the help. Soon will have another Mopar on the streets:cheers:
dodge71demon
Well-Known Member
Use this http://rebelwire.com/rebel-wire-products.php?cat=Wire%20Kits = mopar engine harness
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