wont start

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Brown8404

Brown8404

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Ok for the last few days I have been trying to get my slant 6 started.

First problem
Bad gas. I removed the gas tank cleaned and refilled with good gas.
I do have gas flow into the carb.

Second problem
No spark. Found my issue and fixed it.

Third problem
Timing off, my uncle and I reset the timing by feeling the cylinder pressure. (well as close as you can.)

I changed the ignition coil

So we have spark, we have fuel, we believe the timing is near correct, but it still will not turn over, we get the occasional backfire.

We also have compression,
cylinder 1 105
cylinder 2 140
cylinder 3 120
cylinder 4 120
cylinder 5 120
cylinder 6 120

these were checked twice. so now I am at a loss, I am not sure why it still will not start. Any help would be awesome.

Thanks
Tony
 
1...That is not a good way to set the timing. What year do we have here, and what do you have for ignition, IE, points, Mopar breakerless, Pertronix, "other?"

2...What led up to this? Have you been driving it, and it "just quit? You have described what seems to be a LOT of problems to happen at once. What was (for example) the "no spark?" Generally ONE notable problem will be the key

On the other hand "bad gas" seems to suggest it has NOT been run lately.

==============================

So read your shop manual, the engine section, and check cam timing. Maybe the cam drive slipped. (timing chain) You can download free shop manuals at MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

There's a procedure in there to check the timing chain

(By the way some of those manuals came from the guys here on FABO)

===============================

Timing. You need a better way. Frankly if you are going to "operate" on these girls you need a timing light. If you can't afford new, O'Reillys may loan one, I do know they load out some tools

Check garage sales and CraigsList

But you can set timing "closer" than you did. .........Use your finger, and determine compression. Then rotate the crank carefully so the timing marks come "on up" but do NOT set them to TDC. Rather, set them to "where you want" the timing to be, say, 8 BTC or whatever.

At this point, index the cap tower no1 wire to the rotor, it should be "just coming to" the correct tower contact. Examine the points or pickup / reluctor. The points should be just electrically opening (use a 12 V light, key on) or the reluctor should be "right in" the center of the pickup. Usually, you can wiggle the rotor with the key on, and that little "wiggle" will generate a spark if timing is correct.

===========================================

Also CHECK the spark. "How good" is it? You MUST use the key to crank the engine, because of the resistor bypass circuit. Either "rig" a spark gap or buy a spark tester....they are not expensive. Rig it from the coil tower to ground, and watch it while cranking the engine. You should have a good blue "snappy" spark at least 3/8" long.

More on timing chain / cam timing...........Why did you feel the need to set or change the timing? Unless the cam drive slipped, the timing should NOT have changed. In other words if that happened, you may have shot yourself in the foot for troubleshooting. To put this another way, if you had accurately checked the timing, and it was not correct, you would then suspect that the timing chain has slipped
 
Was this a car that you had running when parked or acquired as non running? Make sure all plugs are clean and dry, squirt some lubricant in all cylinders, spark should be bluish white and not yellow. May even try some good starting fluid.
 
Yes we have tried the Extra strength staring fluid. we changed all of the plugs. and wires
 
this car was not running when I got it. of course they said it was running when they (auto body) shop got it. they told me they wanted to turn it into a big build but customer cars came first and it just took to long.

not sure if i believe that.
 
are the spark plugs wet with fuel after cranking on it? is it flooding ? firing order correct ? distributor 180 out ? sure you have adequate fuel pressure ? strong spark ? have you rebuilt or cleaned the carburetor? new fuel filter?
 
Yes the spark plugs are wet after we crank
it doesn't look like it is flooding
yes the firing order is correct.
I am thinking the distributor is 180 out.
adequate fuel pressure not sure I'm currently adding a fuel pressure gauge
I do have strong spark
I have not rebuild the carb, but I have cleaned it out.
and yes i have a new fuel filter.

I didn't know I had bad fuel when I started to crank on it. until i could smell the varnish smell. I stopped cranking on it and I was hoping the valves were not stuck. so I checked the compression and I think cylinder 1 is low so I am looking at that one for now
 
With what you stated doing already, if it has spark and compression it will run on starter fluid with no fuel, it has to be timing, bet it's 180 out.
 
PhillH said:
With what you stated doing already, if it has spark and compression it will run on starter fluid with no fuel, it has to be timing, bet it's 180 out.
Click to expand...

Or the timing chain has slipped....
 
With the engine TDC pull the valve cover. Also pull the distributor cap and see which plug wire the rotor is aimed. Gently move the crankshaft back and forth and look for rocker arm movement. If the rockers on #1 are moving and the rotor is in the #1 position you are indeed 180 out. You can either rewire your distributor cap or remove and reinstall the distributor with proper rotor clocking.
 
Cylinder 1 compression is not all that low, even for a sticky valve, so I would put off looking at that. It may well just be a worn cylinder anyway, as the front cylinder in an inline tends to do that. But that is for later.

Don't use anymore starting fluid....it is very hard on the cylinder wall and rings.

Timing with 'cylinder pressure' is totally inadequate, except for a small lawn mower engine! The backfiring usually indicates either valve timing or ignition timing is off. Assume ignition for now since you have not really timed it at all.

If you have a points ignition set, then set the timing so that the point just open while rotating the distributor slowly CCW and while the . If you have an electronic ignition, then set one of the pointed star points the trigger wheel on the distributor shaft (just below the spark rotor under the cap) so that it point right at the small gap in the reluctor, again, with the timing slot on the crankshaft damper is about 5-10 degrees BTDC. This will get you close but you ARE going to need a timing light.

For points, set the points gap at .018" with the points are maximum opening. For electronic ignition, then set the trigger wheel to reluctor gap to .008" WITH A NON-MAGNETIC FEELER GAUGE. (3 thicknesses of standard copier paper is pretty close to .008".)

Then you need to figure if you are firing at #1 or #6. As said, the best way is just to pull the valve cover and see which one of those 2 has both intake and exhasut valves slightly open while the damper mark is at 0 TDC (this is called overlap). This will be easier if you rock it back and for a bit around that point. Whichever cylinder has both valves slightly open (at overlap), then you are ready to fire the other one: for example, if #1 is at overlap, then #6 shoulf be firing. With that, you can arrange the park plug wires in the right order going CW starting with the one that is firing being over the spark rotor in the distributor with the timing set as in the paragraph above.

And PLEASE do us a favor! It wastes our time to have to guess what you have as for car and year and all that. I have had to write 2 timings setups above, because that was not answered. It is not OK for anyone to ask for help and then not give important info, when asked. (We all do this for FREE.)
 
mguner said:
With the engine TDC pull the valve cover. Also pull the distributor cap and see which plug wire the rotor is aimed. Gently move the crankshaft back and forth and look for rocker arm movement. If the rockers on #1 are moving and the rotor is in the #1 position you are indeed 180 out. You can either rewire your distributor cap or remove and reinstall the distributor with proper rotor clocking.
Click to expand...

That is one way but you do not need to pull the cover. Stick your finger (or something) LOL compression gauge, etc, into no 1, crank the engine until you start to feel compression. Stop and look for timing marks. Bring the marks up NOT to TDC but rather where you want timing, IE 5-8 BTC etc.

Then check the rotor and reluctor for proper time. WHY would it be out of time WHY?
 
That is why I was curious if he bought it running or not. The previous owner could have replaced a distributor, wire set etc... even acquired it with a slipped timing chain trying to fix the same issues....
 
From the thread non 'Carb Too Big?', it is a new to the OP car and was not running when bought. 1974. Looks like a pretty much a total unknown as to condition.
 
TDC on a slant is pretty easy. Stick a pushrod into the #1 spark plug and run the piston up slowly by hand (on crank or just pulling the fan belt with all the plugs pulled) until the pushrod jams and stops the piston. Mark the damper with a grease pencil at 0, Now hold the pushrod steady where it jammed and rotate the crank backwards until the piston raises up and hits the pushrod again in the opposite direction, mark it at 0. Now bisect the 2 marks you made and put a permanemt mark with white-out on the damper. Move that to 0 and you are TDC. Use thumb in hole to determine if you are on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke. IF you have a timing wheel, you can check cam timing with a slant cam card. If you are pointing at #1 tower at TDC or are JUST before it, your cam timing is correct. Make sure your valves are adjusted too. A slant will start with a crappy base timing, its pretty resiliant to bad gas too, with a 7.5-8:1 CR. I started a motor with an open propane torch hovering over the empty carb once just to see if it would start, sure did! I think Mopar even had a procedure to smog cars with propane or set something...?
 
A few more ideas;

If you have pumped a lot of either through the poor girl, the rings will be dry, and the compression will be down. a few ccs of oil, in each cilinder and a half dozen revolutions to distribute it, will get it back.
Make sure the wet plugs were wet from fuel, and not something else.
Or the rotor shaft is not spinning correctly.

Yeah,no, that method of finding TDC, on an OHV I've never used.
 
Propane starting will just prove a bad carb, sorry not to explain that trick.
 
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