Duane
Well-Known Member
Show me another way to feed the drivers side.
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hard or soft copper line for a valley oil gallery bypass line?
- Thread starter Rapid Robert
- Start date
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Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Both of these mods are designed to cut or restrict oil to the lifters. That’s a given.
No argument from me there.
There is just more than one way to do it.
I agree with you that installing a crossover tube and nothing else is not effective.
I took the time to email you Sanborns notes.
Please read it. Don’t put your own interpretation on what he says.
There is a specific paragraph where he explains where he puts a cup plug to stop feeding the galley from number 1 main.
Yes the tube is put in to feed the galley and
if needed pushrod oiling. But what you continue to leave out is why we are always
Blocking the oil to #1 main. If you were running solid lifters, you would not need to tube the drivers side galley. We don’t want those lifter leaks, but you just need the set screw to cut the flow to that side.
If you want to ask any individual why he is putting in a crossover, you should first ask him if he knows to put in the set screw. If he says no or does not know about it, then there would be a validity to your argument,
but afaik you never asked Rapid Robert about the screw, you just focus on the crossover alone. Perhaps we should call the
Modification the Set screw with crossover mod lol. No arguments about all you said about the two columns. I heard another guy call it turbulence. You could tube the lifter galley. But after you dimple the tube with the dummy lifter, that galley is not nice and round anymore and who knows what exact path that oil will take. Who knows exactly
Where those two columns will meet. It matters not. The oil will still end up at the bearings because it is under pressure and has nowhere else to go except those 4 leaks.
Your rods only get oil from the mains.
I have never totally failed a main bearing either, but I know lots of guys who failed rod bearings. I was just saying if you improve the supply to the mains, you are also insuring supply to the rods.
Sanborn shows you how he modifies the main bearings to get more oil to the rods.
You will never understand the oil speed in the galley because you refuse or don’t understand the issue at number one main.
Number one main is the supply to all the drivers side lifter bores. Those bores leak.
We are in total agreement on that.
We have to cut or stop those lifter leaks.
But Sanborn explains that the main problem
Is the design of the sbm tries to feed those
Lifters from #1 main. Number 1 main is at the very end of the passenger galley. You might as well say that the end of the galley has a great big leak. With a hv pump and high pressure relief spring and a big leak=
big speed in that galley as the pump tries to keep up. That is the root of the problem.
Whether you bush the block, tube the block,
or set screw and crossover the block, all three methods have the same goal to stop the leaks at the lifters and stop supply to the lifters from number one main so that main gets proper volume and pressure. The other main bearings are also helped as well.
Front oiling helps that problem even more.
Did you not notice that Sanborn used bushed
Lifter bores. I am sure they were restricted
Because of the pushrod oiling. So why did he need a crossover if he bushed those bores.
Why not feed that restricted galley from number one main. Think about that.
He already had a supply to the drivers side.
His lifter were bushed. Why a crossover.
He does not even reverse feed number one.
One of his pictures shows where he puts in the plug to block flow from number one.
Because number one main is where all the
Oiling issues begin. You think two columns of oil can’t flow, but you also think a long galley
With a big leak on the end doesn’t flow like crazy(velocity) either. It has to, to try to keep up with those 10 leaks. Look at the Chevy. One galley of oil right from the pump and filter to the cam and main bearings. The lifters are fed from their own galley. That’s what we are trying to do in the sbm.
Dedicate the passenger galley as main bearing supply only.All the galleys in the chev are sealed at the end. The Mopar is not. That is why the blocking of #1 main is way more important than the tube.
View attachment 1716217406
I'm going to print off Sanborn" notes. I just haven't done it yet.
Explain to me why the Chevy doesn't have oil velocity too fast to oil the mains.
One engine oils damn near stock. The other engine has oil issues at about 8k. The difference is one isn't feeding oil to the mains that has HUGE leaks coming off of it. The other difference is idiotic cam grinders sending full time oil to the rockers and engine builders NOT educating their customers about SOME restriction of oil to the rockers. And we ALL know you absolutely, positively can't do that according to the Chrysler book.
Under 8K most guys need to stop the oil leak at the lifters. The fix the pickup side of the pump. If the have a roller cam they are good to go. If they have a roller cam with grooves on 2 and 4 then that has to be dealt with.
Over 8K is a different game. And a crossover isn't needed for that either.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Show me another way to feed the drivers side.
If I had to have oil at the drivers side I'd pull it off the gauge port. Much cleaner and the lie of oil velocity would die.
Read post one. Robert thinks its a velocity issue. It's not. Its a leak issue. AT 8500 plus a bit I was using a machined down pump. I think I still have the rotor and scroll out there and maybe the pump body. I think it was at 85% of a standard pump. And it was on the big side.
Stop the leaks. Control the oil to the rockers. Fix the inlet side of the pump. That's good enough for 99.9999% of the guys posting here.
Duane
Well-Known Member
The Chev does not have the velocity problem because it has 3 dedicated galleys. All 3 of them are plugged at the end of the run.I'm going to print off Sanborn" notes. I just haven't done it yet.
Explain to me why the Chevy doesn't have oil velocity too fast to oil the mains.
One engine oils damn near stock. The other engine has oil issues at about 8k. The difference is one isn't feeding oil to the mains that has HUGE leaks coming off of it. The other difference is idiotic cam grinders sending full time oil to the rockers and engine builders NOT educating their customers about SOME restriction of oil to the rockers. And we ALL know you absolutely, positively can't do that according to the Chrysler book.
Under 8K most guys need to stop the oil leak at the lifters. The fix the pickup side of the pump. If the have a roller cam they are good to go. If they have a roller cam with grooves on 2 and 4 then that has to be dealt with.
Over 8K is a different game. And a crossover isn't needed for that either.
The chev does not share valvetrain and lifter oiling with the crankshaft oiling.
The Chrysler due to its design, tries to oil 16 lifters. The drivers side galley gets its supply
From a restricted 9/32 oil passage at number 1 main. The chev has a full size dedicated galley for each bank of lifters.The supply to each of those galleys is full volume
From the pump. When the oil gets to the end of each galley, the oil flow is trapped. It has nowhere to go but to where the lifter leaks are. When the oil gets to the end of the passenger galley on the Chrysler, it is not trapped. It can continue down to number one main, then it is not trapped there either. It can then continue on to the 8 more lifters.Because #1 main doesn’t get good pressure, it may not feed the rod bearing that it feeds either.
The Chev gets its valve train oiling from a dedicated galley that has full volume from the pump. The Chrysler tries to feed its rocket shafts from number 2&4 main. This
Camshaft drilled hole is a compromise design
Neither the main bearing or the rocker’s shaft have full time oil. Comp cams tried to improve the feed to the rockers with a groove in the journal. As we discussed earlier, this drastically shortens 2&4 main bearing life. So in the end the Mopar has 1
Main galley trying to supply too many things
and has only one full volume supply from the pump. The hv pump tries to do the job and keep up with all those leaks. But the drawback is all those leaks have the oil travelling down the galley at excessive speed, as the oil tries to get to its destinations. This speed then has difficulty making the sharp right turns to the main bearings. The Chev simply by its design does not have that problem. All the Chev galleys
Get full volume from the pump as soon as they need it. The oil mods (pick your choice)
all attempt to dedicate the passenger side galley to oiling only the crankshaft like the Chev. Class rules may dictate which method
a builder would choose. The reason the crossover is not taken from the oil sender
Galley is that does not slow the speed of the oil as it passes # 4&3 main. The crossover line is placed in a strategic
Location with exacting exit angles if you want to do it right. That’s why I just tube the block. I drilled the front oil feed passage on a brand new X block with hand tools and it was nerve racking. If that drill went in wrong, it would ruin the block. It worked out ok. But no way I was trying that again with two fittings on an angle in the main oil galleys. Robert wants to try it. But I agree with you that the crossover resupplies the drivers side with oil. It’s just that that is not the whole story. But that crossover by itself
Fixed nothing. We have to plug the passenger galley as well. I noticed in the stroker small block book that he never recommended plugging the galley, but he tubed both sides of the block and restricted
the feed passage to the lifters. That may have enough restriction that number one main works properly and cuts the speed down in the galley. He also says that oiling is less of an issue in a stroker motor that does not rev very high. Bob Mullen and Glidden said the crossover mod was reliable to 10,000 rpm in pro stock.
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Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
The Chev does not have the velocity problem because it has 3 dedicated galleys. All 3 of them are plugged at the end of the run.
The chev does not share valvetrain and lifter oiling with the crankshaft oiling.
The Chrysler due to its design, tries to oil 16 lifters. The drivers side galley gets its supply
From a restricted 9/32 oil passage at number 1 main. The chev has a full size dedicated galley for each bank of lifters.The supply to each of those galleys is full volume
From the pump. When the oil gets to the end of each galley, the oil flow is trapped. It has nowhere to go but to where the lifter leaks are. When the oil gets to the end of the passenger galley on the Chrysler, it is not trapped. It can continue down to number one main, then it is not trapped there either. It can then continue on to the 8 more lifters.Because #1 main doesn’t get good pressure, it may not feed the rod bearing that it feeds either.
The Chev gets its valve train oiling from a dedicated galley that has full volume from the pump. The Chrysler tries to feed its rocket shafts from number 2&4 main. This
Camshaft drilled hole is a compromise design
Neither the main bearing or the rocker’s shaft have full time oil. Comp cams tried to improve the feed to the rockers with a groove in the journal. As we discussed earlier, this drastically shortens 2&4 main bearing life. So in the end the Mopar has 1
Main galley trying to supply too many things
and has only one full volume supply from the pump. The hv pump tries to do the job and keep up with all those leaks. But the drawback is all those leaks have the oil travelling down the galley at excessive speed, as the oil tries to get to its destinations. This speed then has difficulty making the sharp right turns to the main bearings. The Chev simply by its design does not have that problem. All the Chev galleys
Get full volume from the pump as soon as they need it. The oil mods (pick your choice)
all attempt to dedicate the passenger side galley to oiling only the crankshaft like the Chev. Class rules may dictate which method
a builder would choose. The reason the crossover is not taken from the oil sender
Galley is that does not slow the speed of the oil as it passes # 4&3 main. The crossover line is placed in a strategic
Location with exacting exit angles if you want to do it right. That’s why I just tube the block. I drilled the front oil feed passage on a brand new X block with hand tools and it was nerve racking. If that drill went in wrong, it would ruin the block. It worked out ok. But no way I was trying that again with two fittings on an angle in the main oil galleys. Robert wants to try it. But I agree with you that the crossover resupplies the drivers side with oil. It’s just that that is not the whole story. But that crossover by itself
Fixed nothing. We have to plug the passenger galley as well. I noticed in the stroker small block book that he never recommended plugging the galley, but he tubed both sides of the block and restricted
the feed passage to the lifters. That may have enough restriction that number one main works properly and cuts the speed down in the galley. He also says that oiling is less of an issue in a stroker motor that does not rev very high. Bob Mullen and Glidden said the crossover mod was reliable to 10,000 rpm in pro stock.
I read this post and I almost laughed. You still have 16 leaks at the lifters on a SBC. That still adds to the oil volume requirement of the engine. And still it will oil to 10k plus. STOCK.
You are still feeding 16 pushrods and rockers and it will still oil to 10k. Stock.
It's getting the oil to the mains on time. The Chrysler doesn't do that and the crossover doesn't fix that.
We are getting ready to do an R block with W5 heads. If I feel like it, I'll make a video of how to make on oil without the crossover and none of the other feed lines.
Or maybe I won't and I'll keep letting people waste their time and money on that modification.
BTW, I have never read where Bob Glidden said he used the crossover. I've read other people say he did, but never him.
On top of that, he was still a mortal man. He wasn't perfect. I doubt he used one. And if he did, he knew it wasn't for slowing down oil velocity. That's preposterous.
Duane
Well-Known Member
All I can say is what Jada said. It is beyond you to understand. You understand how to correct the problem. You understand the leaks at the lifters being a problem. You don’t understand the why. And I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Yes Glidden was a mortal man. The true test of any mods is the results of testing. Sanborn did the testing. AFAIK Bob Mullen designer of the w2 head and the crossover circuit and tubing the block were integral to GliddensI read this post and I almost laughed. You still have 16 leaks at the lifters on a SBC. That still adds to the oil volume requirement of the engine. And still it will oil to 10k plus. STOCK.
You are still feeding 16 pushrods and rockers and it will still oil to 10k. Stock.
It's getting the oil to the mains on time. The Chrysler doesn't do that and the crossover doesn't fix that.
We are getting ready to do an R block with W5 heads. If I feel like it, I'll make a video of how to make on oil without the crossover and none of the other feed lines.
Or maybe I won't and I'll keep letting people waste their time and money on that modification.
BTW, I have never read where Bob Glidden said he used the crossover. I've read other people say he did, but never him.
On top of that, he was still a mortal man. He wasn't perfect. I doubt he used one. And if he did, he knew it wasn't for slowing down oil velocity. That's preposterous.
program. The lifter leaks are not a problem in the Chev because they are not fed from
Main bearing supply. A high volume pump has plenty of volume to feed everything.
The Chev just had a better distribution of it.
The addition of the set screw at #1 main,and the turning of 2&4 cam bearings and depending on rules and lifter choice, stop feeding the entire valvetrain off of those 3 main bearings. There is not one drilled feed passage (other than the cam journals)on the chev that comes off a main bearing. It is clear to see in the pic I posted.
I cannot understand how you can’t see that,
or you just don’t want to see it because like Jada said, you want to deny it.
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Duane
Well-Known Member
I am not going to get into your oil timing.I read this post and I almost laughed. You still have 16 leaks at the lifters on a SBC. That still adds to the oil volume requirement of the engine. And still it will oil to 10k plus. STOCK.
You are still feeding 16 pushrods and rockers and it will still oil to 10k. Stock.
It's getting the oil to the mains on time. The Chrysler doesn't do that and the crossover doesn't fix that.
We are getting ready to do an R block with W5 heads. If I feel like it, I'll make a video of how to make on oil without the crossover and none of the other feed lines.
Or maybe I won't and I'll keep letting people waste their time and money on that modification.
BTW, I have never read where Bob Glidden said he used the crossover. I've read other people say he did, but never him.
On top of that, he was still a mortal man. He wasn't perfect. I doubt he used one. And if he did, he knew it wasn't for slowing down oil velocity. That's preposterous.
I addressed that to you 3 years ago and you have Sanborns notes. Slotting the bearing shells and the bearing saddle fixes that. If you can’t understand the velocity issue, you won’t understand what slotting those bearings is doing either.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
All I can say is what Jada said. It is beyond you to understand. You understand how to correct the problem. You understand the leaks at the lifters being a problem. You don’t understand the why. And I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Yes Glidden was a mortal man. The true test of any mods is the results of testing. Sanborn did the testing. AFAIK Bob Mullen designer of the w2 head and the crossover circuit and tubing the block were integral to Gliddens
program. The lifter leaks are not a problem in the Chev because they are not fed from
Main bearing supply. A high volume pump has plenty of volume to feed everything.
The Chev just had a better distribution of it.
The addition of the set screw at #1 main,and the turning of 2&4 cam bearings and depending on rules and lifter choice, stop feeding the entire valvetrain off of those 3 main bearings. There is not one drilled feed passage (other than the cam journals)on the chev that comes off a main bearing. It is clear to see in the pic I posted.
I cannot understand how you can’t see that,
or you just don’t want to see it because like Jada said, you want to deny it.
Then stopping the leaks at the lifters is priority number 2. Getting the inlet side of he pump corrected is number ONE.
Like I said, the chevy oils, the Chrysler doesn't. It ain't about oil velocity or any other bullshit you or anyine else posts,
You are a follower. You don't question orthodoxy even though its blatantly wrong.
You are dealing with not enough oil due to pickup limitations, excess leaks at the lifters and feeding the rockers off the main bearings.
The crossover fixes NONE of that, like I've said for decades.
Seems to me that its YOU who doesn't get it.
And you still haven't learned about oil timing. I slot my bearings but at 8500 where race engines run at doesn't fix the issue.
Keep doing what you are doing. You don't have a ******* clue what you are talking about except repeating what your hero's say.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I am not going to get into your oil timing.
I addressed that to you 3 years ago and you have Sanborns notes. Slotting the bearing shells and the bearing saddle fixes that. If you can’t understand the velocity issue, you won’t understand what slotting those bearings is doing either.
Another dumb *** post. Time for you to go away.
I just hope the OP and others who are thinking about the cross over don't bother with it. They need to fix the issues, not band aid things along. FWIW the nonsense theory that adding a feed lion to the front of the gallery doing anything is laughable.
Keep telling people horseshit and I'll keep telling them its horseshit. I know you're butthurt but its time to move on. I've wasted way too much time trying to educate you.
Duane
Well-Known Member
You and I disagree on very little. It’s just the cause and effect part where we differ.Then stopping the leaks at the lifters is priority number 2. Getting the inlet side of he pump corrected is number ONE.
Like I said, the chevy oils, the Chrysler doesn't. It ain't about oil velocity or any other bullshit you or anyine else posts,
You are a follower. You don't question orthodoxy even though its blatantly wrong.
You are dealing with not enough oil due to pickup limitations, excess leaks at the lifters and feeding the rockers off the main bearings.
The crossover fixes NONE of that, like I've said for decades.
Seems to me that its YOU who doesn't get it.
And you still haven't learned about oil timing. I slot my bearings but at 8500 where race engines run at doesn't fix the issue.
Keep doing what you are doing. You don't have a ******* clue what you are talking about except repeating what your hero's say.
I would assume that anyone who starts to modify the oil passages already knows the basics like inlet and pan etc. This isn’t done for a daily driver. I am not a follower. Never done the crossover thing. I just understand flow and hydraulics. An engine is not totally hydraulics because it leaks. I agree with you that the crossover alone does nothing.
I agree with you on oil timing except cross drilling is not a good way to fix. I am not giving you bullshit. I posted a copy of the Chev oiling. You can see the differences for yourself. Just follow the flow paths and you can see what is different. If you want to do things on your engine differently, just to be different, that’s your right. I want to do what has been proven for many years to work successfully, because I don’t have money to burn for a new motor. No need to reinvent the wheel.
I agree with you that the stock chev oils and the Mopar doesn’t. But most of the Mopar fixes are very similar, but if you require pressurized oil on the drivers side after blocking #1 main, then you need to resupply the oil to the drivers side from somewhere. You chose the sending unit area, Sanborn chose the front of the galley. Mullen and company chose just before #4 bearing.
Maybe they all work more or less. But your constant repeating that a crossover tube does not work is a distortion of the total modification. The only time you don’t need the crossover is if you are running solid lifters. To deny the rapid movement of oil in a straight oil circuit with very little resistance to it at the end of it because of multiple leaks is a misunderstanding of hydraulics.
The Chev drawing with its 3 plugged galleys
Should make you be able to see the difference.
Like 3 years ago this conversation goes nowhere and you return to different topics
or insults instead of sticking to the facts.
Good luck with your new build and good health to you.
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