2 destroyed starters in a row...WTH?

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Dusterdenovo

Dusterdenovo

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I have recently suffered 2 broken starters, both times with teeth taken off of the ring gear. The first time was last October with 6,600 carefree KM on a new 408 powertrain. At the time, I assumed that a tooth must have broken off of the starter gear, in turn breaking a tooth off of the ring gear, and also breaking the locating cone off of the starter. No other damage was detected.

After replacing the Starter and Torque Converter, and finding no other problems, I had driven the car only about 10 times and the same thing happened – no teeth broken on the starter gear this time, but 2 teeth off of the ring gear and another broken locating cone.

The first time I assumed a crappy (Chinese??) starter but now apparently it’s something totally different. In both instances there seemed to be a loud bang (no kidding) when cranking the starter, then the starter just free wheeled on the missing teeth.

Here is some info which may or may not be relevant:
-408, 727, TC, Starter, Battery cables, Starter relay all brand new 2 years ago.
-New Optima Red top battery, extra ground strap on back of engine to firewall
-HEI “R2R” Distributor also new 2 years ago – timing 10-12*initial, 34* total.
-Running 94 gas.
-Both failures occurred starting an already warm engine.
-In the past, I had verified that the TDC mark on the Balancer was correct. Timing was checked again just before the 2nd failure.

Besides the 2 busted starters, the Engine runs excellent – lots of power, smooth as silk for a scrappy 408. No indication that there is anything wrong with the whole set up when the motor is running.

Anybody else had this experience? Something is obviously wrong – no clue where to start looking first.

Thanks in advance,


First time
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Second time
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100_8329.JPG
 
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What starters are you using? The mini denso ?
 
I just added a picture of the starters to the OP - yes, both Mini denso type starters. Performance World and then a Powermaster.
 
After expensive aftermarket starters I'm now on my very first Pick-n-Pull junkyard $22 starter from some old Dodge truck that I found on the ground.... It's now been flawless..
 
Weird and shitty! You would think with kickback there would be a timing issue? No shims or anything else needed with the mini starter?
 
I agree with 4spdragtop up there. Had to much timing in my sons drag car and went through 2 starters . Bucking against the ring gear when trying to start it up.
Backed the timing down and no more problems.
 
I'm also going to say it's not the starters. I bought a 40 dollar mini starter off eBay and it's been flawless. definitely try backing off the timing.
 
YEP , our starters looked just like the ones in your pic up there. Broken snouts , luckily we didn't break the ring gear.
 
Yup on the timing , been a mechanic for 30 years ,those starters are flawless except for the contacts it’s all I replace .
 
I would have said timing as well but he stated 10-12° initial. I dont see where that should cause any issues. I run anywhere from 15-20° on my 340 with no problem.
What kinda compression ratio are you running on that?
 
Thanks for all the input guys.

One of the first things I thought of was kickback with too much initial timing, but something that's confusing me a bit is the fact that my combination worked fine for the first 6600 km until it broke, and then broke again only 400 km later. All this time, the timing never changed from the original 10-12*initial, 34* total, which was checked right before the 2nd failure.

I'm wondering if some other malfunction started sometime before the first failure - like the Distributor going haywire and sparking too soon when the starter was cranking? Just a hair-brained theory, but I'm stuck wondering why this issue has come up "all of a sudden" with no other apparent changes?
 
I feel your pain, but when it happened in my w200, I had to pull my transfer case, too, to fix it. I had that problem on a stock Chrysler truck starter, you know the big heavy bastards. I was told by a rebuilder that the starters are supposed to have a leather washer on the end to cushion the impact of the bendix pinion gear on the snout when it spirals out to full throw. I don't know if that's true or not, just repeating what I was told. Don't know if that has any relevance to the Denso minis.
FWIW. I had a big *** powerful new battery in it.
 
I exploded a starter with a hydro locked engine from a head gasket leak. Any possibility you are doing the same but with fuel?
 
Dana67Dart said:
Any possibility you are doing the same but with fuel?
Click to expand...

I never smelled any abnormal gas fumes when they both broke, or any other time so don't think I'm having any carb issues that could lead to that. Couldn't swear to it in court though.:(

Just thinking, the ONE positive thing about all of this is that both starters bought it in my garage instead of who-knows-where.
 
What Dana67dart said is possible you did say it happened on a warm engine?carb float sunk and fuel spilling ?
 
Yes, both times the engine was at operating temp - I had just returned from drives both times, then was re-starting the car.

What would be the symptoms of such a fuel spillage problem (besides the obvious)? Would I have to open up the Carb to check that? Carb is also 2 years old - Holley 750 which seems to work fine otherwise.
 
Dusterdenovo said:
Yes, both times the engine was at operating temp - I had just returned from drives both times, then was re-starting the car.

What would be the symptoms of such a fuel spillage problem (besides the obvious)? Would I have to open up the Carb to check that? Carb is also 2 years old - Holley 750 which seems to work fine otherwise.
Click to expand...
Just look down the carb after you run it and make sure no fuel is dripping into the intake.
 
The hydro locking idea is food for thought. I can't describe exactly how the start ups sounded sometimes, but recently there were times that the engine sounded like it was "fighting itself" a bit before firing up.
 
Dusterdenovo said:
The hydro locking idea is food for thought. I can't describe exactly how the start ups sounded sometimes, but recently there were times that the engine sounded like it was "fighting itself" a bit before firing up.
Click to expand...
That sounds a lot like timing ,the balancer marks could have shifted and give you a false # for your initial timing?
 
Especially if it was ok for 66k then you checked the timing and was 11-15 deg ?
 
Biff said:
Just look down the carb after you run it and make sure no fuel is dripping into the intake.
Click to expand...

I'll check that out tomorrow. The engine hasn't run for a month and I can't start it, so maybe the float bowls levels have dropped due to evaporation? I might have to prime them a bit to check that??
 
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