2016 Sema Mopar Hemi Swap

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Well the "345" crate HEMI already has the "stage 1" calibration.
Scat Pack 2 & 3 is really just a collection of hardware right (technically it does not come with a PCM)... so should fit onto any 5.7.
As for calibration... well that may require some additional tuning to work properly of course. Scat pack 3 cam is pretty aggressive, plus ported heads, different manifolds, etc...
 
Interesting. That explains the small bump in HP on the crate 345.

For some reason, I thought stage 2 and 3 had PCM's, but I knew at least stage 3 required tuning. I guess it doesn't really matter, provided the PCM in the kit can be tuned for ported heads and a cam.

Thanks!
 
I was told that Hotwire was working on adding cruise control as an option , If it a must have you may check with them to see if it is available .
 
Map63Vette said:
Sounds like it is a factory unlocked PCM by the stories I have read. Certainly looks like one in the pictures at least compared to the old AEM setup. I think these are only for VVT motors though, which could be good and bad depending on how you want to look at it. There are getting to be a lot of newer engines out there, so it open up the pool of what you can use as a donor.
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Hey guys, why does the sema post I read say the new classic car harness will work for 2014 or newer 5.7 and 392 engines
 
superbirdrag said:
Hey guys, why does the sema post I read say the new classic car harness will work for 2014 or newer 5.7 and 392 engines
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2013 and newer 5.7 & 6.4.
So Challenger/Charger/300 engines.
Won't work correctly with 2012 or older engines because the older engines have a different crank target ring and crank position sensor.
 
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The crate 5.7 comes with a clutch flywheel set up , will my 833 4 spd bolt directly to it and work with it
 
It comes with a flywheel and clutch from a 2015 Challenger 5.7.
Clutch - 05038119AH
Flywheel - 05038113AD
part numbers for reference.

You'll have to search/ask around to see what is needed to mate the engine and trans.
 
Driftacular said:
2013 and newer 5.7 & 6.4.
So Challenger/Charger/300 engines.
Won't work correctly with 2012 or older engines because the older engines have a different crank target ring and crank position sensor.
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If you changed the tone ring and sensor on a 2012 and older engine to the newer 2013 and up tone ring and sensor would that work?
 
Both those questions get this answer:

45869665.jpg


seriously though... I can't tell you that it will work for sure or not.
Those engines, (pre-2013) and RAM engines are different than the intended engines for the kit. But of course very similar.
RAM engine for example has a different intake manifold and front cover, so some wires (to the alternator) will be on the wrong side, or wrong length. Some sensors might have different connectors, some sensors may be different (pre-2013 crank position for example). Different exhaust manifolds. Comparing the differences between the intended engine and the engine you wish to use down to sensor part numbers will help you decide if you want to make this kit work with your engine choice.

The instruction sheet does have each connector on the wiring harness broken down pin by pin if you are trying to use a different engine and may need to use a different connector or other wiring needs. For example:
upload_2016-11-18_23-8-30.png


but pre-VVT which is what? pre-09... now your getting complicated.
 
The above mentioned tone ring and year brake comments are incorrect. The eagle series engines have the same reluctors. Whats going to cause issues for the masses is exactly this. Many are going to assume their 09 and newer pull out engines work with these controller kits. And the same "Ls swap" fallacy of a magic $2000 junkyard swap is going to cause a steep learninG curve when someone learns they pulled a hemi out of the wrong year/car in hopes of using this controller. Eagles probably have 6 cam profiles and mds or non, and several combinations across the board. The mopar kits will only work with one configuration... its just like the ls kits gm has. They control one single engine profile out of the box. Period. Every day I talk to someone whom has a pullout pile of parts they think is the answer to all their problems and they end up burried financially because nothing is compatable.

Please use caution with assumptions and mopars lack of clarifications on these.

I will gladly tear into the first one I get for you guys to help more, but I gotta sell one first to channel it through the warehouse.

These may be tunable with something like hp tuners...but keep in mind 2015 and newer chrysler pcms are locked from the factory to the point where diablo cant even sell you an in tune without swapping you ecm's....so tunability remains to be seen, and HP is not for the novice.
Thats just my long winded 2 cents to hopefully save some future headacheheadaches for someone.
 
Looks like me and driftacular were typing at the same time lol. Agreed sir.
 
Hey Jonny Pace.
Just so I follow your warning, Keep in mind I am a novice to anything past the lean burn set up. I can buy a 2014 5.7 hemi out of a ram (6800km). This engine is vvt/mds. This motor will need the lifters and solenoids changed out to remove mds. Change the oil pan to front sump and buy the flywheel /clutch setup to bolt my 833 4 spd. I will buy TTI headers, Schumacher motor mount ,install manual brake master cylinder and a gas tank with a sump (fuel pump).I will need manual steering or a smaller power steering box. And of course buy the new classic muscle car wire harness kit. How am I doing so far? Please any response DUMB it down so I don't have to get a dictionary out. Thanks
 
superbirdrag said:
Hey Jonny Pace.
Just so I follow your warning, Keep in mind I am a novice to anything past the lean burn set up. I can buy a 2014 5.7 hemi out of a ram (6800km). This engine is vvt/mds. This motor will need the lifters and solenoids changed out to remove mds. Change the oil pan to front sump and buy the flywheel /clutch setup to bolt my 833 4 spd. I will buy TTI headers, Schumacher motor mount ,install manual brake master cylinder and a gas tank with a sump (fuel pump).I will need manual steering or a smaller power steering box. And of course buy the new classic muscle car wire harness kit. How am I doing so far? Please any response DUMB it down so I don't have to get a dictionary out. Thanks
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Good morning!

The largest issue I see right off the bat for using the mopar controller kit is thst the truck has a different cam profile, and intake, than the car. Both of which would require tuning professionally. These kits tunability remains to be seen, and again something line HP tuners is not exactly for the novice.

This is where that ($ 500 engine score) turns into a nightmare real quick.

The truck has a different cam, mds, intake, possibly different plugs on the tb. And a completely different timing cover.

So you end up being a few thousand from turning the truck engine into the challenger engine they are using in this kit. Is all the trouble and skinned knuckles and possible other issues I haven't even thought of worth the headaches vs installing a used engine vs a brand new one? Never has been in my book. And believe me I fall into the "cheap" category. But there are many automotive instances where that "$1000 saved" ends up costing you many many more in the long run.

I sell all this stuff, and we even have complete engine trans packages. Something the mopar version doesnt have.

Basically a used engine ends up needing custom accomodations and additional cost. And there are always unknowns involved
 
sorry for the type-o's above. was on my phone.
to address the other issues you mentio
n.

Headers and motor mounts are correct.
we use the milodon pan, so i cant speak for the mopar fitment yet. again until someone buys one from me and i have it in my hands.lol

one thing about the hemi PS pumps in factory form is they are WAY too much psi to work with a stock box, or even with a MII rack. Has fca fixed that on this PS add on...something tells me i doubt it. but we don't know that for sure.

lets not all forget mopar offered these in the past when the 6.1 was alive and well....those kits were overpriced, plagued by backorders, and very little pre sales tech was avail.

hopefully these new ones are much better... guess we will all learn together.

DCC-68303088AA- 5.7L Eagle Engine HEMI 383 HP Dressed, New, OE Crate Engine
DCC-77072455AB - Mopar 5.7L HEMI Crate Engine Controller. For use w/ 5.7L Eagle Engine 68303088AA


DCC-68303090AA- 6.4L Apache Engine HEMI 485 HP Dressed, New, OE Crate Engine
DCC-77072454AC - Mopar 6.4L HEMI Crate Engine Controller. For use w/ 6.4L Eagle Engine 68303090AA

thats why we made this one...install ready. no fussing with it. plug and play. in a package.
DCC-68259164-FX - Pace Performance 5.7L HEMI 460HP Crate Engine with Controller.
 
Thanks for the reply, so your saying the truck engine is possibly a nitemare ? Ok , I have a wrecked srt8 charger next door with a 6.1 hemi in it ,complete running car just not repairable. This will not work with the new harness. Is it a smarter choice to start with and buy a different harness or should I look for a 2014 charger 5.7 hemi. Or just say the hell with the used cheaper stuff and buy the 5.7 crate you listed. I live up north , the price on the 5.7 crate for me is $7500
 
superbirdrag said:
Thanks for the reply, so your saying the truck engine is possibly a nitemare ? Ok , I have a wrecked srt8 charger next door with a 6.1 hemi in it ,complete running car just not repairable. This will not work with the new harness. Is it a smarter choice to start with and buy a different harness or should I look for a 2014 charger 5.7 hemi. Or just say the hell with the used cheaper stuff and buy the 5.7 crate you listed. I live up north , the price on the 5.7 crate for me is $7500
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The 6.1 is a dinosaur at this point. If it were me I would abandon these used "deal" engines entierly.

I can ship relatively cheap to Canada, and I offer a little member price break.

The hemi swap has enough hidden surprises on its own, without getting into the unknowns of a used engine. 6.1 vs eagle is yet again a completely different laundry list.

Say you pull that 6.1 and harness and ecm...where to from there? Removing security features from the ecm. Tuning, harness modification. Etc. Idk if anyone in canada does that. And again thousands if you ship it somewhere.

I suppose at least the 6.1 can use the old msd hemi6. But still...idk. your call in the end. Its easy for me to spend your $. Lol. A new crate isnt for everyone just like a used engine isnt for everyone. There are some very skilled people out there that can do all of the above with their eyes closed. But again, we arent talking plug and play...alot of skill, tuning knowledge, and extra cost involved.

I dont want to just come off as a sales pitch also. I want to throw that out too... I just deal with guys that call in every day with a bunch of takeout parts that might as well be from a different make vehicle because they are nowhere near working, and/or require extensive custom wiring, tuning, hardware, etc
 
Johnny Pace said:
The 6.1 is a dinosaur at this point. If it were me I would abandon these used "deal" engines entierly.

For some of us this is the only way we can get it done. Even the cheapest crate kit is out of our budget.

If I can't swing it with a "Deal engine" and a wiring harness I will just have to stick with the R/B, B, Magnum and LA engines.

Thank you guys for all the replies.

Mike
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Understood entirely, And not knocking it at all. Just pointing out possible hurdles for you, that may end up costing you more $ than the "crate" kits..or even worst...acquiring a pile of parts that requires a bunch of hard parts, or special accommodations to work at all.

Like i said before...(and this is not meant to be directed at you, nor is it an insult) I talk to someone every single day that wants a plug and play, no laptop required, magical ecm/harness kit that will control their hemi, AND their 46rh-w/e, or NAG trans they pulled out of a camper van for $50, AND they want said harness to be $900. And every day i have to burst bubbles that there is no magical ecm/harness kit that grows on tree's. And the "truck" engine" and "camper transmission" they "scored" for $1000 combined is about $5000 away from ever running in a vehicle.

Now, you're being smart and asking questions before hand. So you're chances of getting stuck with a truck engine and a camper trans, and no feasible options, are slim :)
 
Pace seems like he's done a hemi swap or two in the past!

Most of the kits announced at SEMA (except 2 of the add-on kits) are all already on shelf and ready to order.

As for the power steering, it is a production PS pump, some details on the pumps output are in the instruction sheet.

To jump back a few points; the target ring was changed, the change is subtle but there. the valley width between each tooth went from 5.306mm to 6.306mm.
This change would be unnoticeable to any aftermarket controller since it must be taught this, and both rings have the same number of teeth. However it will affect the MOPAR controller.

superbirdrag said:
should I look for a 2014 charger 5.7 hemi.
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that should work just fine with the mopar kit, throw a milodon pan, some mounts and headers, trans, and 6 wires later you'll be done.

I'm on Pace's side with cheap deals costing you more in the end, I've been on that side too many times. I'd take his advise.
But I'm also cheap... soooo.... :)
 
Driftacular said:
Pace seems like he's done a hemi swap or two in the past!

Most of the kits announced at SEMA (except 2 of the add-on kits) are all already on shelf and ready to order.

As for the power steering, it is a production PS pump, some details on the pumps output are in the instruction sheet.

To jump back a few points; the target ring was changed, the change is subtle but there. the valley width between each tooth went from 5.306mm to 6.306mm.
This change would be unnoticeable to any aftermarket controller since it must be taught this, and both rings have the same number of teeth. However it will affect the MOPAR controller.


that should work just fine with the mopar kit, throw a milodon pan, some mounts and headers, trans, and 6 wires later you'll be done.

I'm on Pace's side with cheap deals costing you more in the end, I've been on that side too many times. I'd take his advise.
But I'm also cheap... soooo.... :)
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Well thats 2 of us showing stock on all this stuff...thats quite a marvel for chrysler...lol

the PS pump will blow the seals right of a rack or box. I think heidts or someone makes an inline reduction valve. I have used the LS pumps in the past, so i don't have experience with the valve.

So you're saying there was not a tooth count change, but a tooth distance change is 2013-14 ish? you taught me something there! but you're right we do use the self learners where its irrelevant.

last point.....you positive that the 2014 charger camshaft has the same profile as a stick shift challenger??...or does it perhaps have one of the other 6 grinds mopar uses...?we both agree that the mopar kits won't "learn"

This is where the hidden "whoops" of a "takeout" bites you in the buns!
 
Johnny Pace said:
I think heidts or someone makes an inline reduction valve.
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Take a look at how that valve operates and you will see that it simply bleeds the fluid reducing the pressure at all speeds, which is not a good thing since the pressure will be lower at idle and slow speeds (parking lot maneuvers - right when we need good pressure).
I am using a real pressure reducing valve (adjustable) set at 1200 psi (for my Borgeson box) so no matter what RPMs are it will put out constant pressure. You can buy those valves at any hydraulic supplies place.
 
lol marvel indeed.

Yah there are many factors for PS pressure, superfragl's method sounds pretty smart to me.

yah, from 13 onward is the target ring change.

The camshaft grind is different in the ramps on charger EZH engine. Shouldn't be a problem with this cal . That camshaft is in A LOT of engines from 09+ (LA/LC/LD/LX/WD/WK/even some DS).
EZC camshaft (Non-MDS) is also 09+, but LC/LA manual only like you said
 
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The crate engine says that it comes with a manual clutch . Will my 833 4 spd bolt to it and work ?
Your talking the different cam shaft grinds, are you referring to the new wire harness/computer being only able to work with the crate engine cam shaft or they all work you just don't get the same power ,truck engine vs challenger engine vs crate engine
 
superbirdrag said:
The crate engine says that it comes with a manual clutch . Will my 833 4 spd bolt to it and work ?
Your talking the different cam shaft grinds, are you referring to the new wire harness/computer being only able to work with the crate engine cam shaft or they all work you just don't get the same power ,truck engine vs challenger engine vs crate engine
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The only reason it has a clutch, is because thats where chrysler plucks it off the assembly line before it would go into a stick shift challenger. I highly doubt it's of much use to you, as it will be for a new challenger. The smallblock bell housing pattern is the same yes, but the fore/aft spacing i'm guessing is not, as well as what spline count it has (tremec)

as for the cam question. What needs to be realized is this engine is one of like 6, 5.7's still in production. you have car, truck, MSD, and non. whatever a 2016 challenger with a stick has, is probably identical to the 345 crate. SO... if you had a different engine, say a truck, it's not that it won't make a "little less power" its that it is straight up NOT COMPATIBLE due to several things. MDS, Cam profile, ETC.

Have you ever heard of someone with an EFI engine "blowing it up" after a cam swap, and not having the ECM re-tuned? i have...numerous times. Factory ECM's are not Fitechs...or Holley snipers...the do not "Learn" anything beyond basic fuel maps.

Now on say an LS swap, You can have someone with livewire or HP tuners re-tune the factory ECM (or the ECM in the swap kits) to work with a different cam profile. (say a cam swap LS3)

BUT on a chrysler... if you have the wrong cam, or swap cams...i'm guessing it's not so simple. These ECM's in the mopar kits are probably 2015+ chrysler ECM's. If you go buy a 2015+ challenger...the factory ECM is locked to the point where you cant even buy a diablo tuners without also having to buy a near thousand dollar "unlocked" ECM... so being these mopar kits are based on production pieces parts... it remains to be seen if a PROFESSIONAL tuner can re-tune them or not. (without needing to swap out the entire ECM w an unlocked unit)

this is why Pace Performance developed our crate hemi's that are swap friendly 2 years ago.

the mopar kits are very cool, and the price point on the 5.7 is great. I sell them both so i'll gladly support either the mopar kits, or my pace hemi kits. BUT the point just needs 100% realized that these mopar controller kits being purchased W/O the intended configuration engine. MAY end up being a monumental waste of resources and funds to make it "right" and may result in serious damage if you try to run it as is.

If you have a takeout 5.7, you're better off with something self learn, but then you face the VVT issues. I heard a horror story last monday of a guy with a "bargain" takeout hemi in a CJ jeep project. He has gone rounds with a VERY "Reputable" hemi tuning/wiring company that many swear buy...and it still doesn't run well over a year of sending a factory ECM back and forth... Just know what hurdles you're getting into. He is WELL over the cost of just buying a complete package at this point.

thousands into tuning/making that Used engine work...is very very close to what you would have had in just buying the new crate engine, and MATCHED controller kit. thats the entire point to my post.
 
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