318 build problems & new direction

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yellow rose said:
I've been in the PER business. I'm not proud of it. In fact, I'm sure it took years off my life. Almost every morning I threw up in the shower. I lost my hair in the shower. It looked like a cat fight in there. They did **** I would NEVER do. The warranty is designed to absolutely **** the customer. Every loop hole, every nick nack bullshit deal and they would absolutely bend the customer over and lay it to them dry.

I moved to management, which made it worse. most of the people there weren't machinists. They were dudes off the street that were taught to run a machine. They had no idea why they did something, or why they shouldn't. 90% of these production engine rebuilders are ****.

I almost never mention my time in the PER business. I detested it, what they did and what they do. We straight out fucked people.

STAY AWAY FROM PER's.

And that is the last I will mention about that part of my past.
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PER means????
 
Production Engine Rebuilder. Mass rebuilders just plain don't care about anything but bottom line. Ever seen valves with the stems' OD turned down to fit in guides with bronze inserts? It's cheaper than guides and new valves. but it cuts away the hardened layer on the valve stem. Never seen one with accurate valve jobs/seat heights/spring installed heights. Absolute garbage. But - for the price first shopper - they still get considered because of the buy in cost.
 
moper said:
Production Engine Rebuilder. Mass rebuilders just plain don't care about anything but bottom line. Ever seen valves with the stems' OD turned down to fit in guides with bronze inserts? It's cheaper than guides and new valves. but it cuts away the hardened layer on the valve stem. Never seen one with accurate valve jobs/seat heights/spring installed heights. Absolute garbage. But - for the price first shopper - they still get considered because of the buy in cost.
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I have access to a supplier/vendor of reman engines and heads--I NEVER use them cause I KNOW it will come back on me--been there done that. I just politely send them to the wrecking yard if I don't want the job. J.Rob
 
cudaracer said:
So if nobody uses a PER, everyone just uses a builder and reputable machine shop instead.

thanks
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Yup. The rate of incident with PER's is astronomical. Don't even ge me started on th CRIMINAL way they calculate warranty rates. Makes them look good but it's 100% BULLSHIT.

Save the grief and find a great machine shop and never look back.
 
Some 350hp path options for my stock 318 short topped with current 308 cast heads and 268/280 cam, DP & 600 eddie.



1. Machine 318 to 324, add pistons and headers totals to $350 + $380 + $600 = $1330 (just basics)

2. Purchase machined 360 short, will need damper, flex plate, oil pan, motor mount totals to $800+200+100+100+50 = $1250

3. 390 stroker kit and balance and damper and flex and minimum cleanup on block totals to $1500+200+200+100+250= $2250


Option 3 is more, but is capable of far more power, if I ever redo the top end.


So as I waffle yet again, I am back to this.
 
I've got a 318 right now built pretty good. Decked to where the piston sits .002 in the hole with flat top Icons..about 9.8 with my gaskets and a pretty good quench. Not stroked with indy 192/162 valves 62cc chambers. Goes like heck but needs gears and converter to get it going at the green light. Power comes on HARD between 4500 and 5800 rpm. Comp XE268H cam. It's a screamer and shows my buddies built 350 chebby luv my tail lights. He pulls me on the start but I catch and pass him over 150' before we cross the line @ 12.93 104mph.
If I had to do it over again I would have went with a 360...in fact I am doing it over again with a 360/408 stroker. More power at lower rpms but still capable of spinnin right up there. the cost between a 318 stroked and a 360 stroked is about the same. Ive got 2800 in mine right now with the donor long block and all I have is a machined block, Forged 4" crank, forged I beams, forged mahle pistons, Timing chain, bearings and rings. I still need many small dollar items but need heads and roller rockers for the roller cam and lifter retrofit...See where I'm going with this...I love my 318 and have no regrets other than I want more power down low. I think a limiting factor for the 318 stroked would be shrouding of the valves with the smaller bore.
Run a rev limiter...you wont regret it...
 
cudaracer said:
Thanks,
but, do I really need a rev limiter with an auto, that stays in D 99% of the time?
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If you have a sure grip, rpm will be easier to control when you break em loose. If you have an open diff and you break em loose that 1 tire is gonna spin up pretty quick. In either case, with a short stroke 318 built a bit, it will rapp up pretty quick on wet pavement when you mash the gas. I very unexpectedly learned the hard way.
FBO ignition systems makes a pretty nice setup and it works.
 
^

Thank you. I do have sure grip. Right now, it revs up so slow I can't imagine over-revving. Maybe after I build it right, I will keep this in mind.
 
Is quench really that important? How much power am I leaving on the table with my big chamber 308 heads, relative to 302 small chamber heads, ignoring the port velocity effect.

Also, considering a small amount of valve shrouding with stock bore 318, how much power will 10 more cubes add with a 0.060" over bore? Most would say about 1hp per cube, but I think one should consider the unshrouding effect, which might equate to something closer to 2hp per cube. Seems plausible.

Here is my hp math summary breakdown, wihch is above the stock 72 318 2bbl engine:

adding 3.97" bore = +15hp
adding DP Weiand + 600 carb = +40hp
adding KB17 flats (9.6 CR) = +50hp
adding 308 heads with port matching, bowl porting = +50hp
Adding comp cam XE268 = +60hp
Balancing with new rods and pistons (264 fewer grams/ cylinder) = +10hp
Magnum manifolds with 2.5" duel exhaust = +20hp
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Total added hp as complete package = 245

So from a wimpy 150 hp base, I am estimating about 395
feel free to second guess my numbers.
 
cudaracer said:
Is quench really that important? How much power am I leaving on the table with my big chamber 308 heads, relative to 302 small chamber heads, ignoring the port velocity effect.

Also, considering a small amount of valve shrouding with stock bore 318, how much power will 10 more cubes add with a 0.060" over bore? Most would say about 1hp per cube, but I think one should consider the unshrouding effect, which might equate to something closer to 2hp per cube. Seems plausible.

Here is my hp math summary breakdown, wihch is above the stock 72 318 2bbl engine:

adding 3.97" bore = +15hp
adding DP Weiand + 600 carb = +40hp
adding KB17 flats (9.6 CR) = +50hp
adding 308 heads with port matching, bowl porting = +50hp
Adding comp cam XE268 = +60hp
Balancing with new rods and pistons (264 fewer grams/ cylinder) = +10hp
Magnum manifolds with 2.5" duel exhaust = +20hp
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Total added hp as complete package = 245

So from a wimpy 150 hp base, I am estimating about 395
feel free to second guess my numbers.
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Well, first you have 2 different hp ratings in your post. The wimpy 150 is NET hp, and your add-ons are listed in GROSS hp. The 318 2bbl had 230 GROSS hp.
Second, my opinion is your over estimating the hp gains. example: I don't see 60 hp in that cam, especially without headers.
I would think if you got 125 hp out of what you have listed, that would be great. That means your total would be roughly 355 gross hp. That is a stout little small block in street form.
 
paper numbers never equal actual dyno results. I was figuring 390 to 410 with my 318 build via camquest...360 ish is what it actually is if you extrapolate from the RWHP dyno results of 281hp and 257Tq.
dyno-sheet-jpg.1714938354.jpg

Mine likes 40* all in @3200 rpm. Made the best power there without detonation on 92 E10 pump gas. People have told me my 40* timing works because of quench.
 
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Thanks for the info and graph.

As far as the cam power, I thought that would be the biggest factor over stock wimpy cam.
 
What will I experience with a lighter, balanced crank assy? There will be 264 grams removed from piston/pin/rod, and I will be replacing damper. Will it actually rev quicker?
 
cudaracer said:
Thanks for the info and graph.

As far as the cam power, I thought that would be the biggest factor over stock wimpy cam.
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The cam is a big upgrade. But that was only given for as ONE example. I think most of the list you have is over estimated.
Honestly, you list of adding 245 hp plus the factory 230 would be getting close to 500 horsepower (475 to be exact). That's just not happening off of that list.

But, if you could land around 350 hp, that would be stout for that build. Remember, a X-head 340 in '68 only listed as 275 hp (but 310 would be more realistic).
 
cudaracer said:
What will I experience with a lighter, balanced crank assy? There will be 264 grams removed from piston/pin/rod, and I will be replacing damper. Will it actually rev quicker?
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BINGO! yes, it will rev quicker. Light weight assembly won't flow any more at shift point.
The fact is, a lot of what you do to a car will make it "feel" and "act" like a bigger motor, or more hp, but not even change it. Examples of this are gears, torque converters, weight of vehicle, and the such. Going from 2.76 gears to 3.91's will make you "feel" like you added 75 hp in the 1/4, but you added nothing.
 
cudaracer said:
So with all that added work, you figure only 120 added hp? Is that so?
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Way too caught up in the HP. What is it that you want the car to do?
Let me ask you this: If you bored a 360, port and gasket match the heads, throw in a XE 268 with no headers (manifolds), you think that combo would make 525 hp??? Sounds a little ridiculous, right? Because that 360 is going to make about 50 more hp than your 318 with the same components.
 
Cheap, streetable, and mostly stocking looking is what I seek.
I guess all the numbers is a relativity discussion.

I am considering 390 and 360 options. I prefer 340, but price keeps that out of my reach.
There is no doubt 360 gets more more, and 390 stroker gets me more yet, but I am intrigued with the little original teen, which would be 328 cubes when complete. I have the top end and cam rebuilt now, with stock low CR short, and it is just a dog out of the hole. Yeah, it comes to life at highway speeds. So when I read about how many love their little teen, but wish it had more holeshot ability, I worry that a short rebuild with more bore and more CR will not be much better than what I got.
 
cudaracer said:
Cheap, streetable, and mostly stocking looking is what I seek.
I guess all the numbers is a relativity discussion.

I am considering 390 and 360 options. I prefer 340, but price keeps that out of my reach.
There is no doubt 360 gets more more, and 390 stroker gets me more yet, but I am intrigued with the little original teen, which would be 328 cubes when complete. I have the top end and cam rebuilt now, with stock low CR short, and it is just a dog out of the hole. Yeah, it comes to life at highway speeds. So when I read about how many love their little teen, but wish it had more holeshot ability, I worry that a short rebuild with more bore and more CR will not be much better than what I got.
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you can build towards more low end torque. Maybe the EX256 cam? The compression will help low end. A good converter that acts like a stock converter when normal driving but loosens up when torque is applied.
 
318willrun said:
BINGO! yes, it will rev quicker. Light weight assembly won't flow any more at shift point.
The fact is, a lot of what you do to a car will make it "feel" and "act" like a bigger motor, or more hp, but not even change it. Examples of this are gears, torque converters, weight of vehicle, and the such. Going from 2.76 gears to 3.91's will make you "feel" like you added 75 hp in the 1/4, but you added nothing.
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True that! Remember, the lightweight reciprocating assembly will rev quicker in neutral but won't make the car accelerate faster if the tires don't spin with a 2.76 gear.
 
I'm only commenting to make sure a misconception is not made. The lighter assembly will indeed allow the CAR to accelerate more quickly. The engine's output energy has 2 places to go: linear acceleration of the car's mass, or rotational acceleration of the rotating parts (engine rotating parts, trannie parts, drive shafts, rear gears, axles, wheels and tires). Speeding up any part of the rotating mass takes energy away from linear acceleration of the car; you only get part of it back when the trans upshifts and you get that 'kick'. (That 'kick' is energy being transferred out of the engine's rotating mass when the RPM's drop that HAS nowhere else to go except into the car's mass.) The more the mass rotating anywhere, the more it absorbs energy from accelerating the car's mass.

Now HOW much it helps is another question, but lighter rotating mass anywhere does help. Drag racing seems to be one race discipline where this gets the least attention; perhaps it is due to the rotating mass of an auto trannie's parts is pretty huge and the benefit of working on other areas is better time and $$ spent. But, other racing disciplines take advantage of this all the time. A bit of extra acceleration on a circle track that gives a 1/8 (2+ feet) car length makes the difference in getting your nose in below the other guy and making it stick in the next corner. Ditto for road racers.
 
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