340 Manifolds, Reproduction, Any interest?

Interest in 340 Reproduction Manifolds

  • YES!

    Votes: 75 59.5%

  • NO

    Votes: 51 40.5%
  • Total voters
    126
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magnummopar said:
It's a small foundry here in Oregon.

I don't have any hard quotes, this thread was just to see if there was any interest after i talked to the owner.

We were talking about casting 100 pairs for $20K.

Didn't talk specs or machine work.
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If the casting costs $200 I don't think there's any way to make profit on 100 sets. I'm a machinist and have designed and built many fixtures to hold casting while they are being machined. Making a reliable fixture that puts out consistent product takes time and money. One fixture would have to be made for each manifold then a machine programmer would have to develop (write) a program to run the CNC machine. Then the CNC machine would have to be "set up" for one run of 100 then "torn down" and set up again for another run of the other 100 manifold. I would estimate a cost of $3000.00 (rough estimate) to make/test the fixtures and to program the machine. Then to set up each run would be another cost, after that all you have to do is pay for the machining itself.
You'd probably have to make a run of at least 500-1000 (if not more) sets to be able to drive the cost down to an acceptable level. Fixtures and programming are a one time cost. Each time you have to "set up" for a run is a recurring cost. The cost of the machining itself should be consistent.
Most of the cost (up front) will be in designing and making the fixtures, testing the fixtures, writing the program, testing the program.

PS - We didn't mention any testing to ensure reliability/durability which takes time and money.


Treblig
 
EL5DEMON340 said:
Manifolds are not needed IMHO, you can make some good money casting a strong SB block that can handle 1,000hp, I don't think the R3 blocks are made any longer.
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Well what are we going to bolt the new small block victor heads on? Edelbrock told me at Pomona races that those new heads will flow 350cfm and if ported 400cfm. But couldn't get a set. So I bought a new set of Indy T/A. :burnout:
 
magnummopar said:
I said have them made for $200 a set, and that is at the 100 sets mark. That does not include the final clean up.

Then i said there would be no point in making them if i can find more originals for under $300.
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Never gonna happen......because if it was gonna happen, it already would have.

We have reproduction sets available for 500-700 dollars now. If they could be made cheaper, somebody would be doin it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Never gonna happen......because if it was gonna happen, it already would have.

We have reproduction sets available for 500-700 dollars now. If they could be made cheaper, somebody would be doin it.
Click to expand...

As usual, Rusty hits the nail on the head.
 
Treblig said:
If the casting costs $200 I don't think there's any way to make profit on 100 sets. I'm a machinist and have designed and built many fixtures to hold casting while they are being machined. Making a reliable fixture that puts out consistent product takes time and money. One fixture would have to be made for each manifold then a machine programmer would have to develop (write) a program to run the CNC machine. Then the CNC machine would have to be "set up" for one run of 100 then "torn down" and set up again for another run of the other 100 manifold. I would estimate a cost of $3000.00 (rough estimate) to make/test the fixtures and to program the machine. Then to set up each run would be another cost, after that all you have to do is pay for the machining itself.
You'd probably have to make a run of at least 500-1000 (if not more) sets to be able to drive the cost down to an acceptable level. Fixtures and programming are a one time cost. Each time you have to "set up" for a run is a recurring cost. The cost of the machining itself should be consistent.
Most of the cost (up front) will be in designing and making the fixtures, testing the fixtures, writing the program, testing the program.

PS - We didn't mention any testing to ensure reliability/durability which takes time and money.


Treblig
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You really wouldn't need CNC machines, but no matter how you do it there is a lot of machining on these. Don't forget the deep counterbores on some of the bolt holes, plus on the drivers side the flange vs the exhaust outlet are on a compound angle which need to be done exactly as the factory did it in order for stock/repop headpipes to hook up properly. Plus, how about the machining for the exhaust heat valve? People looking for "stock" parts will want that in there too. The $1000/pair price someone else mentioned does not seem far off!
 
RustyRatRod said:
They have been reproduced for like 15 years now. Where have you been?
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As mentioned above Accurate LTD originally released the 340 49/53 casting exhaust manifolds years ago. The original production amount reproduced were 1000 sets. The retail price at that time was $650.00 per set. As mentioned also , there is more than what meets the eye in reproducing exhaust manifolds . If there is the slightest difference in any angle of the left manifold there will be pipe interference with the torsion bar, starter or the pitman arm. Material quality can also be an issue which can cause cracking, warping and other failures if not held to high standards. Then you have legal concerns with Chrysler because you have reproduced a part that appears to be an exact reproduction of their design whether you have included a pentastar or not. They also claim that they have license rights to the casting numbers in case these are embossed on the reproduction pieces. Just a few things to think about prior to any investment with a product like this.
 
69_340_GTS said:
You really wouldn't need CNC machines, but no matter how you do it there is a lot of machining on these. Don't forget the deep counterbores on some of the bolt holes, plus on the drivers side the flange vs the exhaust outlet are on a compound angle which need to be done exactly as the factory did it in order for stock/repop headpipes to hook up properly. Plus, how about the machining for the exhaust heat valve? People looking for "stock" parts will want that in there too. The $1000/pair price someone else mentioned does not seem far off!
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6 of one 1/2 a dozen of the other....The CNC is more accurate, repeatable and fast but more expensive because a three/four axis CNC machine cost way more than a manual machine and involves programming. Machining these manifolds "manually" incurs no expensive CNC machine nor does it require programming. But machining anything manually is much, much slower (cost/time), less accurate and labor intensive all of which drive the cost up. Moreover, if machined "manually", the compound angle between the engine/exhaust surface and the exhaust outlet/heat riser would require that the manifold be done in "stations". One station/machine for each machined surface. This was probably how it was done originally!! Each station would require a different fixture (more cost) to hold the manifold at the proper angle. When you make many thousands of manifolds the "station" method is very effective and that's probably why Mopar used that method.
So no matter which route you choose it cost too much to make a small batch. Expensive machine/programming OR expensive labor/time.


I do not wish to discourage "magnummopar", I was just shedding some light on the subject of machining!!

Treblig
 
Tom Swope said:
As mentioned above Accurate LTD originally released the 340 49/53 casting exhaust manifolds years ago. The original production amount reproduced were 1000 sets. The retail price at that time was $650.00 per set. As mentioned also , there is more than what meets the eye in reproducing exhaust manifolds . If there is the slightest difference in any angle of the left manifold there will be pipe interference with the torsion bar, starter or the pitman arm. Material quality can also be an issue which can cause cracking, warping and other failures if not held to high standards. Then you have legal concerns with Chrysler because you have reproduced a part that appears to be an exact reproduction of their design whether you have included a pentastar or not. They also claim that they have license rights to the casting numbers in case these are embossed on the reproduction pieces. Just a few things to think about prior to any investment with a product like this.
Click to expand...

exactly why the accurate ltd ones didn't have part numbers on them i'll bet.

its also what chrysler went after laysons about.. the pentastar and part numbers on their stuff.

laysons008.jpg


laysons010.jpg


z40.jpg
 
i opted for originals..:) probably would have about $600 total (buying and coating them) into them if i didn't barter for the ceramic coating..

clean ones are still plentiful, just have to look and be patient.


DSC_0005_1.jpg
 
Yes they are and those look really nice, Joe.
 
Treblig said:
6 of one 1/2 a dozen of the other....The CNC is more accurate, repeatable and fast but more expensive because a three/four axis CNC machine cost way more than a manual machine and involves programming. Machining these manifolds "manually" incurs no expensive CNC machine nor does it require programming. But machining anything manually is much, much slower (cost/time), less accurate and labor intensive all of which drive the cost up. Moreover, if machined "manually", the compound angle between the engine/exhaust surface and the exhaust outlet/heat riser would require that the manifold be done in "stations". One station/machine for each machined surface. This was probably how it was done originally!! Each station would require a different fixture (more cost) to hold the manifold at the proper angle. When you make many thousands of manifolds the "station" method is very effective and that's probably why Mopar used that method.
So no matter which route you choose it cost too much to make a small batch. Expensive machine/programming OR expensive labor/time.


I do not wish to discourage "magnummopar", I was just shedding some light on the subject of machining!!

Treblig
Click to expand...

I agree, no matter how it's done, it won't be cheap. Maybe China could do it?

As a side note, hardly anyone had NC equipment back in the 1960s. Maybe someone making Moon rocket parts did. I think I programmed my first NC 3-axis mill in around '76. People that had to make thousands (millions?) of duplicate parts had custom-built transfer machines made specifically for the part they were making. For these manifolds at one station the face would be milled, then the part moved the the next station where the holes were drilled using a muti-spindle head, next station would mill the outlet flange, etc... They still use machines like this today if the volume of parts can justify the investment.
 
This is what makes FABO the best on the internet.

You ask for a simple yes or no and you end up with 4 offers to sell you what you need and a history lesson on the invention of the CNC machine.
 
I always thought it would be cool to have cast exhaust manifolds that improve flow and have the right side angle changed so you don't need the 90* adapter for the oil filter. Might be more interest in that than just copying the originals.
I'm sure they would be to expensive and weight a lot.
 
Lol Joe is that Dave in the tan shorts to the left of the cop?

Thanks for the laugh.




abodyjoe said:
exactly why the accurate ltd ones didn't have part numbers on them i'll bet.

its also what chrysler went after laysons about.. the pentastar and part numbers on their stuff.

laysons008.jpg


laysons010.jpg


z40.jpg
Click to expand...
 
magnummopar said:
This is what makes FABO the best on the internet.

You ask for a simple yes or no and you end up with 4 offers to sell you what you need and a history lesson on the invention of the CNC machine.
Click to expand...


LMAO! Ain't that the truth!
 
Please PM me if and when you get them done. If you really can get it done for $300.00 you will make a lot of $. Let me know. Thanks.

73 Duster
96 Dakota 4 WD
2013 Dart.
 
Hey,now that my mentioning of cnc is dead lets talk about the 3d printer options with ceramic composites !??
 
Already ahead of you, just printed out half dozen pairs in silver, only took 3 ink cartridges so I figure $35/pr ought to cover it. BTW does anybody know what CNC means, I cant find it in the thread search.....

seems like I get the same reaction each time I inquire about what I think would be a helpful part, like a header for 64-66 V8 or a dropped center link for same....yes, I know there are other manufactures doing it but $250 for center link or $700/pr for manifolds seems out of my budget and I would assume others as well. Rather than actual helpful answers like I wouldnt pay $20 for them or hell yea, I want 4, I get a lesson in something I have done for 20 years, three thread hi jacks and maybe one or two real answers (thanks btw!!) and a load of bullshit about how I dont know what I am talking about. I didnt ask if anybody thought I could produce a part or how to do it, I just asked if anybody would consider buying aftermarket 340 manifolds.

I have access to a bank of 10 cnc mills, waterjet table cnc bender etc... that I dont have to pay much for time. I also have somebody that will trade me cad time for parts/wrenching and can get **** programmed for dirt cheap. I also have a friend thats a Mech Eng that could run the cad stuff for structural integrity, I can do this and yea it might end up being $250 ea but it would still be american made **** that actually fits.

We have been selling our jeep swap headers for 15 years. They are $475 so it can be done, is it worth it to me to gamble on selling 500 pr...maybe not.
 
All in good spirit:angel12: When the pot gets stirred you have to bring the chunks off of the bottom too:finga: Happy holidays !!!!!!!!!!! You still have my support !!! I could use a set.
 
If you're really going to try and tackle something, make a header for early and late A bodies that actually fits that's affordable. Screw manifolds.
 
I can get great headers right now, they fit like a champ, dont leak and improve flow. They are made in usa out of virgin us steel, 3/8 flange, 16 ga. Only problem, they cost me $600 pr (10-20 pr purchase) and thats after $3500 set up fee so if I sell them at $750 (which is not cheap) I have to sell 24 sets just to break even, that doesnt figure in anything like my time, shipping, the set I made for them to copy, etc. Now if I sell them for $950 that gets investment back in 10 pr, but who will pay $950 for 67-74 headers that work with power steering? I am currently building a set for 64-66 SB but its tough, and very limited market.
I build a block hugger type header for my Jeep swaps and they cost me a **** ton, but they are the best ones out there period. I have to sell them for $460 pr and of course scummit sells a cheap *** copy for $199 that doesnt fit, leaks and is junk but lots of the jeep guys buy theirs instead of mine. I am not a fan of leaky collectors or changing gaskets on headers so I prefer the good ****. If enough others do, then we can move forward but not until i have a general idea that there is real interest.
 
A great exhaust alternative is the only thing keeping me from adding 340-360 heads to my 318 in my 68 Barracuda. I hate headers, nobody makes them that fit, they drag, leak, rust and are a major PITA to install. If I'm going to pay for TTI's I might as well spring for a set of these manifolds, they may not flow as well but at least they are maintenance free. I'd actually buy two sets if they are cast like the original 68-69 340 manifolds. My car is a driver so I don't care about having a "pentastar" or part numbers cast into them. If they fit and are $200/pair I'm in!!
 
nobody makes them that fit, they drag, leak, rust and are a major PITA to install.
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bullshit.. you just don't want to pay for the ones that fit and don't leak. big difference.
 
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