340 Vs 360

[fishmens67]

I gave you two examples of smaller engines being quicker and faster even at the same horsepower.

Think about this. I have to make the math easy because I don’t feel like doing a bunch of math today.

Lets say you have 1320 feet to get the job done. But it doesn’t matter because any length of course will work. Or even on the street. That’s why God gave man the brains to make transmissions. Never overlook that fact.

You’ve got 1320 feet. And your car does 10 flat. At let’s say…6000 RPM. That means you have 100 RPM per second. You divide that by two (because the crank has to turn twice to make one cycle) and you get 50 firing cycles per second. You following this?

You make power by firing the cylinder. Even at the same horsepower.

In the above example for a 10 second run you get 500 firing cycles during the run. That’s it. In fact, the crank only turns 1000 times!!!!!! That’s not many times is it.

Now let’s say that we change the engine up so that it makes the exact same HP but it does it at 7500 RPM. That’s 125 RPM/Sec. That’s 25% more RPM/Sec that at 6000 RPM.

That means you have the crank turning 1250 times during a 10 second run. Which is 650 firing cycles during the same run. You have 150 MORE times that the cylinder is making power.

And you say so what? It’s still running 10 flat. Maybe, but the car should go quicker IF you tune the chassis and converter for the higher RPM and more firing cycles.

Thats at the same HP. You can’t take gearing and converter out of it because it matters.

Thats why I can say I could have built the same engine as above with LESS stroke and MORE RPM and gone quicker and faster with less displacement.

Of course, this is somewhat simplified because the RPM used is peak and not the average RPM a going down the track.

Obviously you launch at an RPM lower than 6000 or 7500 RPM, and you have RPM fall back at the gear change. But the fact remains that RPM will INCREASE displacement!!! It sure does.

Every time you fire the cylinder you are displacing 1/8 of your total CID. If you fire the cylinder more times you are effectively increasing the displacement.

It‘s amazing how so many discount or even ignore gearing and gear ratios. It’s a simple concept.

Just like a longer wrench will give you more leverage than a shorter wrench, lower gearing gives you more leverage than a longer stroke will.

 

[justinp61]

Uncle Tony doesn’t have the money or the skill to build anything. He can’t run a mill or a lathe (or he’d figure out a way to get that at the shop) let alone run any automotive machine tools with any accuracy.

Big difference between a machinist and a play engine builder.

Well, by this criteria I’m a hack too. LOL

I do have an old South Bend 9” lathe and an ancient small horizontal mill. I can do what I need, but I’m no machinist. I build all of my own engines and have for a few others too, but I’m not an engine builder. I also build my own transmissions and do all my own fabrication, but don’t claim to be either.

Yep a hack!

 

[Bakerlite]

Uncle Tony doesn’t have the money or the skill to build anything. He can’t run a mill or a lathe (or he’d figure out a way to get that at the shop) let alone run any automotive machine tools with any accuracy.

Big difference between a machinist and a play engine builder.

What you fail to understand is that running a mill or lathe or building Pro Stock engines is not Tony's job. Content creation for Youtube is his job, and he seems to be OK at it.
Just like content creation was his job when he worked for magazines..
Now you have a Youtube channel, let's just sit back and see how you rate on Tony's playing field, because that will show the difference between a Journalist and a guy who once worked at a machine shop.

 

[Bakerlite]

340 Vs 360??? About 20 cubes..

 

[Rat Bastid]

Well, by this criteria I’m a hack too. LOL

I do have an old South Bend 9” lathe and an ancient small horizontal mill. I can do what I need, but I’m no machinist. I build all of my own engines and have for a few others too, but I’m not an engine builder. I also build my own transmissions and do all my own fabrication, but don’t claim to be either.

Yep a hack!

Missed the point totally. This place is unreal.

 

[Bakerlite]

Well, by this criteria I’m a hack too. LOL

I do have an old South Bend 9” lathe and an ancient small horizontal mill. I can do what I need, but I’m no machinist. I build all of my own engines and have for a few others too, but I’m not an engine builder. I also build my own transmissions and do all my own fabrication, but don’t claim to be either.

Yep a hack!

Three things to remember.
1. If you're not the Rat, then you're a hack.
2. If the Rat is not sucking up to you, then you're a hack.
3. If the thread is not about how good he is and what he did in the 80"s, then he'll try his best to steer it that way.

 

[justinp61]

Missed the point totally. This place is unreal.

No, I got it. We need a sarcasm emoji. LOL

 

[Rat Bastid]

Three things to remember.
1. If you're not the Rat, then you're a hack.
2. If the Rat is not sucking up to you, then you're a hack.
3. If the thread is not about how good he is and what he did in the 80"s, then he'll try his best to steer it that way.

Three things to remember.

1. This **** isn’t hard. If you build an underachiever that’s on the builder. Way too much information out there to build an over priced slug.

2. I suck up to no one.

3. What’s sad is you and multiple people can’t duplicate what I was doing over 20 years ago. What’s worse is even worse some can’t do what I was doing 40 years ago.

Its not because it can’t be done. It’s because they never learn.

You are the best example of that.

You never post anything of value. And the moderators let you get away with it. That makes you a special kind of special doesn’t it?

 

[Bakerlite]

We need a sarcasm emoji. LOL

There is this or

 

[a-bodyguy]

No, I got it. We need a sarcasm emoji. LOL

could be made with words
" my world begins@8500 rpm "

 

[rumblefish360]

WOW! What a long reply…. Here we go…

It’s only mental masturbation if you can’t keep up or you can’t differentiate between cost and value.

That I can but for some it’s a different goal post.

Think about it. You and all the “street guys” are the ones who struggle with what a race engine is.

Incorrect! But then again, it’s a moving goal post and point of view.

You have to post your defintion of “race” if you want to go down that rabbit hole. If you think 7500 is race RPM you are 30 years behind.

Point of view. I did ask your on several items with no reply so I’m waiting on you. But don’t bother going back because it’s more than a chore to search out questions I asked that you didn’t answer. It’s really not a big deal.

Look at how many threads there are about the junk main girdles. That garbage wasn’t made because someone was sitting around, bored. There is a PROBLEM. And the problem is you can buy more horsepower cheaper than ever.

That’s for sure!

How many guys buy a stroker kit? Damn near everyone. Unless you are as cheap as they come, you get a 4340 non twist forged crank (I’m old enough to remember when the non twist forging was a big deal…now no one mentions it because it’s so commonplace) and a set of 4340 rods with 7/16 cap screws. And you get a set of pistons that 30 years ago would have been “race only” stuff and even those things are obsolete because most of those pistons still have the 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 John Deere ring pack. They should ALL get 1mm ring packs but that’s still too “racey” even though your average Honda has a 1mm ring pack.

LMAO “John Deer” ring pack! Now that’s funny!

Cams and induction have gotten better along with cylinder heads.

Agree

And yet, with all that power available the VALUE of an aftermarket block is poo-poo‘d as a needless expense when in fact you waste money dumping all that money into a passenger car block that was designed and developed for 5000 RPM maximum and what?? 320 HP?

Not even

These blocks bend and twist and flex and ring seal goes straight to hell. A main girdle won’t fix that. You have to run wider than needed bearing clearance because the block is not much better than a slightly under done noodle. So you have to give the flexing block more clearance so it doesn’t grab a bearing. A main girdle won’t fix that either.

It comes down to value and durability. Running a stock block and trying to make power is an exercise in pissing into a fan.

Ive taken apart hundreds of 500 plus HP engines over the years and not one single stock block wasn’t showing signs of distress.

The main bearings are showing odd wear. The main line is no longer round. Or straight. The bores are iffy at best. The head gaskets show sings of barely sealing up because the decks are so thin they move around like a cheap ***** on coke at a disco.

“

they move around like a cheap ***** on coke at a disco.

That’s ducking fantastic!
Dude, I’m soooooo using that one! No doubt!

So it’s not mental masturbation. It’s about learning and unlearning.

Learning what new technology allows not only in power but in durability. And unlearning nonsense like main girdles and aftermarket caps (the caps are great and strong but the block is still 5 day old oatmeal) and filling the block and all that monkey motion that doesn’t little or nothing.

Making power and stepping over donuts to grab dog turds is counter productive. And costly.

Sigh…. Yep! Agree

 

[Rat Bastid]

WOW! What a long reply…. Here we go…


That I can but for some it’s a different goal post.

Incorrect! But then again, it’s a moving goal post and point of view.

Point of view. I did ask your on several items with no reply so I’m waiting on you. But don’t bother going back because it’s more than a chore to search out questions I asked that you didn’t answer. It’s really not a big deal.

That’s for sure!

Exactly. You have your idea of what is what and mine isn’t close to that.

Ive laid out exactly why 7500 isnt a race RPM. And that’s what starts the argument.

Anyone that thinks that RPM doesn’t make more power just ain’t paying attention.

Like I say, if you think a 500 RPM idle and cruising down the freeway at 75 MPH at 1800 RPM then you have to build something totally different.

I have no desire to build stuff like that. But don’t argue that that way is better for performance when the bench mark is making useable power at an RPM range commensurate with todays technolog.

 

[rumblefish360]

Exactly. You have your idea of what is what and mine isn’t close to that.

Maybe, you never asked did you? How is it you decided that I’m not more on board with your ideas and way of thinking?
Oh nooooo, did you assume something? Tsk Tsk, I thought you knew better.

Ive laid out exactly why 7500 isnt a race RPM. And that’s what starts the argument.

In someone world it is! But just because that someone isn’t turning what you consider a race engine rpm doesn’t mean it’s not a race engine. Bark about it all you want but that’s the fact of the matter.

Anyone that thinks that RPM doesn’t make more power just ain’t paying attention.

Agreed

Like I say, if you think a 500 RPM idle and cruising down the freeway at 75 MPH at 1800 RPM then you have to build something totally different.

That’s a stock engine with Hwy gears…
WTF?

I have no desire to build stuff like that. But don’t argue that that way is better for performance when the bench mark is making useable power at an RPM range commensurate with todays technolog.

If you or anybody can get with todays top tech parts and build a max output engine the way you’re saying, God bless’em and go for it. It takes a lot of cash to chase down such endeavors.

As you can tell, I’m not rolling in the dough with W5 heads getting ready for use. Nope, that’s like Poor Boy parts to the serious racer now isn’t it?

 

[rumblefish360]

Rat… have at it. I’m pretty much done with this thread so you just go on hammering away via yammering away to all about how it gets done.

The thing is when you reach this level of what’s better between said engines, as I said earlier, it turns into a racing engine thread. Being most won’t get there, it’s a mental M thread by that point.

You keep saying people don’t learn but I don’t see you teaching anyone anything.

I do just see you running your mouth yet again hammering away with insulting everyone that hasn’t been there and done that yet.

So big man! Here’s the stage! Everyone is waiting for your lessons! Teach, teach, teach away!!!!!!!!

 

[273]

The judging for the EMC for that year was based on three consecutive pulls from 2500-6500RPM.
With a cubic inch factor added in to take into consideration the variations in displacement between competitors.

If you're trying to make as much "average horsepower from 2500-6500 per cubic inch" which is what this competition is comparing .. then sure. Limit your cubes to get the powerband where need it to win the dyno trophy.

The powerband is fix so larger engine the more potential power between 2500-6500 why they do per cubic it's competition of who build the most efficient engine basically lbs-ft per cid across 2500-6500 rpm don't think smaller is really an advantage.

That's a heck of a potent 371ci engine, But with a 4" crank it would end up at 414ci and would've made more overall horsepower at a bit lower RPM

And horsepower is what gets you across the line before the guy in the other lane.

I don't think it's guaranteed that 414 would done better but even if it did the point was that the more dial in the more everything is designed to work together for particular combo the better the results, that's only at 1.33 lbs-ft per cid.

With off the shelf parts each gonna favor different combo's eg.. they don't make a line heads for each displacement and various bore stroke rod ratios at different powerbands for each etc..

 

[Bakerlite]

Rat… have at it. I’m pretty much done with this thread so you just go on hammering away via yammering away to all about how it gets done.

The thing is when you reach this level of what’s better between said engines, as I said earlier, it turns into a racing engine thread. Being most won’t get there, it’s a mental M thread by that point.

You keep saying people don’t learn but I don’t see you teaching anyone anything.

I do just see you running your mouth yet again hammering away with insulting everyone that hasn’t been there and done that yet.

So big man! Here’s the stage! Everyone is waiting for your lessons! Teach, teach, teach away!!!!!!!!

Ask him about "his Dyno". Then apply that situation to everything else he says..
There is an obviously a blurry line between what "he's done" and what he's "read on the net".

 

[rumblefish360]

Ask him about "his Dyno". Then apply that situation to everything else he says..
There is an obviously a blurry line between what "he's done" and what he's "read on the net".

Well, I’m not going to break his balls on anything. After all, all the talking he does on how no one learns and he’s been there and done so much, I’ll just sit back and learn from him on how he does his race engine.

I certainly look forward to the dyno day where he screams that sum-***** 8500+ rpm making real power as he puts it.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Rat… have at it. I’m pretty much done with this thread so you just go on hammering away via yammering away to all about how it gets done.

The thing is when you reach this level of what’s better between said engines, as I said earlier, it turns into a racing engine thread. Being most won’t get there, it’s a mental M thread by that point.

You keep saying people don’t learn but I don’t see you teaching anyone anything.

I do just see you running your mouth yet again hammering away with insulting everyone that hasn’t been there and done that yet.

So big man! Here’s the stage! Everyone is waiting for your lessons! Teach, teach, teach away!!!!!!!!

Don’t get your feelings hurt so easy. I get that you can’t understand what I’m saying.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Well, I’m not going to break his balls on anything. After all, all the talking he does on how no one learns and he’s been there and done so much, I’ll just sit back and learn from him on how he does his race engine.

I certainly look forward to the dyno day where he screams that sum-***** 8500+ rpm making real power as he puts it.

Is some fool questioning whether or not I have a dyno? LOL.

That‘s one jealous little boy.

 

[rumblefish360]

Don’t get your feelings hurt so easy. I get that you can’t understand what I’m saying.

Oh no! They’re not hurt at all!
What is it you *THINK* I don’t understand?

Is some fool questioning whether or not I have a dyno? LOL.

That‘s one jealous little boy.

It wasn’t me! I actually look forward to you showing us all how it’s done and the dyno session with that 8500+ screamer your going to teach us all on.

This is gonna be great!!! I’m sure I’m not the only one looking forward to your high rpm screamer build.

I have a question!!!!!

Will you be running W9 heads or something “Exotic?”

 

[Rat Bastid]

Oh no! They’re not hurt at all!
What is it you *THINK* I don’t understand?

It wasn’t me! I actually look forward to you showing us all how it’s done and the dyno session with that 8500+ screamer your going to teach us all on.

This is gonna be great!!! I’m sure I’m not the only one looking forward to your high rpm screamer build.

I have a question!!!!!

Will you be running W9 heads or something “Exotic?”

LOL it has to be one of three wankers I have on ignore that was questioning if I have a dyno. I couldn’t care less what any of the three think.

Im not doing another 8500 plus engine. I’m going to do a 3.79 stroke W2 tunnel ram engine that will shift at 8ish. Ok, maybe 8500 IF i decide to drop the coin for Ti valves. I’m not doing it again on steel valves. I can do it. I just don’t want that much maintainance.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Ask him about "his Dyno". Then apply that situation to everything else he says..
There is an obviously a blurry line between what "he's done" and what he's "read on the net".

LOL, decided to check in for a laugh.

You can’t imagine what I’ve done and what I’ve worked with.

Stop being a jealous baby.

 

[rumblefish360]

LOL it has to be one of three wankers I have on ignore that was questioning if I have a dyno. I couldn’t care less what any of the three think.

Im not doing another 8500 plus engine. I’m going to do a 3.79 stroke W2 tunnel ram engine that will shift at 8ish. Ok, maybe 8500 IF i decide to drop the coin for Ti valves. I’m not doing it again on steel valves. I can do it. I just don’t want that much maintainance.

Good! Looking forward to the build.
When are you starting it?

 

[frosty_the_punk]

I gave you two examples of smaller engines being quicker and faster even at the same horsepower.

No, you give me one "would've" and an 8hr youtube video.

Think about this. I have to make the math easy because I don’t feel like doing a bunch of math today.

Lets say you have 1320 feet to get the job done. But it doesn’t matter because any length of course will work. Or even on the street. That’s why God gave man the brains to make transmissions. Never overlook that fact.

You’ve got 1320 feet. And your car does 10 flat. At let’s say…6000 RPM. That means you have 100 RPM per second. You divide that by two (because the crank has to turn twice to make one cycle) and you get 50 firing cycles per second. You following this?

With to so far.

You make power by firing the cylinder. Even at the same horsepower.

In the above example for a 10 second run you get 500 firing cycles during the run. That’s it. In fact, the crank only turns 1000 times!!!!!! That’s not many times is it.

Now let’s say that we change the engine up so that it makes the exact same HP but it does it at 7500 RPM. That’s 125 RPM/Sec. That’s 25% more RPM/Sec that at 6000 RPM.

Yes, 25% more power atrokes, with 25% less torque created from each one.
So same horsepower. Got it

That means you have the crank turning 1250 times during a 10 second run. Which is 650 firing cycles during the same run. You have 150 MORE times that the cylinder is making power.

Yes, but again, it's making less torque with each of those power strokes.
Which is why it needs more of them to make the same horsepower.

And you say so what? It’s still running 10 flat. Maybe, but the car should go quicker IF you tune the chassis and converter for the higher RPM and more firing cycles.

If you have two engines with equal horsepower, but different operating RPM, if you optimize the convertor, gear and chassis etc to use the horsepower where it's available in both.
They will both provide the same level of performance, or at least extremely similar.

Thats at the same HP. You can’t take gearing and converter out of it because it matters.

That's entirely my point.

Thats why I can say I could have built the same engine as above with LESS stroke and MORE RPM and gone quicker and faster with less displacement.

Not unless it made more horsepower.

Of course, this is somewhat simplified because the RPM used is peak and not the average RPM a going down the track.

Absolutely, this is a given.

Obviously you launch at an RPM lower than 6000 or 7500 RPM, and you have RPM fall back at the gear change. But the fact remains that RPM will INCREASE displacement!!! It sure does.

Not if you're reducing the torque in equal proportion to the increase in RPM to arrive at the same horsepower.

Every time you fire the cylinder you are displacing 1/8 of your total CID. If you fire the cylinder more times you are effectively increasing the displacement.

It‘s amazing how so many discount or even ignore gearing and gear ratios. It’s a simple concept.

Just like a longer wrench will give you more leverage than a shorter wrench, lower gearing gives you more leverage than a longer stroke will.

Hmm, You do understand that optimising gear ratios can be done for lower RPM engines as well, right?

It's not a thing that only exists for high rpm engines, gear reduction is a scientific principle that can be applied wherever it's needed.

Like, there are 8sec diesel pickup trucks running on the street. And they do it with ungodly amounts of torque.
Try telling them "RPM is king"
They''ll laugh in your face.

 

[rumblefish360]

@Rat Bastid What was it you think I don’t understand?