340 X Head Valve Options

[1970Duster]

Get yourself a set of single groove Ferrea stainless steel valves. Ferrea is one of the best valve makers out there. These are what I had installed in my x heads before I sold them to a member on here. Don't know if he's used them yet but I'm sure he's happy with them.

 

[SheSaid]

Get yourself a set of single groove Ferrea stainless steel valves. Ferrea is one of the best valve makers out there. These are what I had installed in my x heads before I sold them to a member on here. Don't know if he's used them yet but I'm sure he's happy with them.

I did some comparisons with the Ferrea catalog. Seem like they have some good products. I just fell into these 6.1 Hemi valves and they seem to be a great value.

Just found out the Intake is a hollow stem and the exhaust is sodium filled to dissipate heat.

The heads have not made it to the machine shop yet but they will be soon. Then we can start making these Frankin-heads work.

 

[SheSaid]

So I have been busy with the usual, house, job, and kids. I have not had much time to work on the heads. I have put some time into an Eddie 750 AFB carb that I rebuilt for this motor as well as a Pertronix Ignitor III ignition set up for the motor. See here.

The heads have been delivered to the guy doing my valve job but he is a little busy right now so I might not get to setting the Hemi valves into the X heads for some time.

While I was waiting, I found a set of PRW Aluminum 1.6 roller rockers on ebay $200 shipped. They seem like a good value... I know they are not Comp, HS, or any other respected "brand name parts." However I think they will be serviceable for the job at hand. They seem to be high quality. A little heavier than I thought but should be an upgrade from stock stamped steel rockers.

+ Adjustable Rockers (needed to run solid lifter cam)
+ Roller Tip for less friction
+ 1.6 Ratio for more lift and possibly better geometry
+ Should have plenty of 'arm-pit' clearance with beehive springs
+ They look cool!:thumblef:

- Not a brand-name over priced American made part
- Heavier than stock stamped steel
- Needle bearings could cause serious issues if rocker breaks in half (not likely but there is a chance)
- May still have rocker geometry issues... we will see

 

[pishta]

I was going to tell you you need adjustables with those shorter valves, but that looks like a very doable valve setup. Did the PRW's come with hardened shafts? The roller bearings eat up soft stock shafts. Only bad thing I have heard from that style roller is the roller tip bearing or bushing has reportedly come apart and littered the motor with hardened fragments, but that could be an isolated incident. Also, the beahive springs, are they the same diameter at the base than the double springs you took out? That is important that the springs seat nicely in the head, the doubles should have an extra step down there for the inner springs, didnt notice.

 

[SheSaid]

I was going to tell you you need adjustables with those shorter valves, but that looks like a very doable valve setup. Did the PRW's come with hardened shafts? The roller bearings eat up soft stock shafts. Only bad thing I have heard from that style roller is the roller tip bearing or bushing has reportedly come apart and littered the motor with hardened fragments, but that could be an isolated incident. Also, the beehive springs, are they the same diameter at the base than the double springs you took out? That is important that the springs seat nicely in the head, the doubles should have an extra step down there for the inner springs, didnt notice.

The PRW's came with hardened shafts. I read about the rocker tip problems, but decided to risk if for the price. I believe the diameter of the base of the beehive springs are smaller than the diameter of the base of the stock springs. So I will have to mill the seats, but I will have to mill the seats anyway to get my spring install height.

Still have not had a chance to start machining on these heads. Started a new job this week and putting down new flooring in the house, you know... the same reasons we all have trouble getting these projects done.

 

[1wild&crazyguy]

The roller tips arent gonna fall off, and there is not bushing...just a pin.fwiw

Just center them on the stem real good and shim them so there is only about .010-.015 side play.

 

[moper]

The PRW's came with hardened shafts. I read about the rocker tip problems, but decided to risk if for the price. I believe the diameter of the base of the beehive springs are smaller than the diameter of the base of the stock springs. So I will have to mill the seats, but I will have to mill the seats anyway to get my spring install height.

Still have not had a chance to start machining on these heads. Started a new job this week and putting down new flooring in the house, you know... the same reasons we all have trouble getting these projects done.

The spring seats will need to be cut falt... so the step is gone. They should have had that done before - I shudder to think what the pressures were with the inner spring on the raised step...
Be very carfeul during the valve job phase. Shaft rockers need the tip of the stem perfectly placed in terms of heights and you are using non-standard stuff. It's not only a matter of the overall length - but also where the valve sseat is created that sets that placement.

 

[SheSaid]

The spring seats will need to be cut falt... so the step is gone. They should have had that done before - I shudder to think what the pressures were with the inner spring on the raised step...
Be very carfeul during the valve job phase. Shaft rockers need the tip of the stem perfectly placed in terms of heights and you are using non-standard stuff. It's not only a matter of the overall length - but also where the valve sseat is created that sets that placement.

Might of been a cause of the broken retainer...

 

[SheSaid]

Just an update... almost 5 years later... I still have the 6.1L Hemi valves and X heads sitting in the trunk of my Dart in a barn this whole time. Hope to get back on this project this year and I'm starting with the heads.

I am taking the heads and valves to machine shop in Groveport to evaluate if this is possible. Issues I see with the setup is getting the required 6.1L valve spring install height of 1.80" and valve guides for the narrower stem. The internet seems to indicate that stock X head valve spring install height is 1.65". I assembled a 6.1L Hemi valve and a stock X Head Intake valve next to each other. The 6.1L valve is overall slightly shorter but the locking grooves are higher on the stem.

To fit the valves will require a valve job and will "sink" the valves some, this should give me some of my spring install height. However, I will still have to machine the spring cup seat to achieve my 1.80" install height. Any idea how much meat is under the stock X Head Valve Spring Cup/Seat???

If I can take 0.100" out of the cup I think this whole wonkey idea might work.

Once I get the machine shop on board I am going to get started with the home porting work.

Thanks FABO

 

[yellow rose]

Do not machine the springs seat down by that much. I can't figure out why you need all that installed height. I'm running .620 lift and my installed height is 1.720 and I know Crane and a couple others make springs that will take that much lift with a 1.7ish installed height.



Whatever you do, go to b3racingengines.com and read ALL the tech pages he has posted. I can absolutely promise you that you will need to correct your geometry.

Make sure your valve job has a top cut .060 wide and .100 would be better but sometimes it's hard to get, especially if the valves are bigger than 2.02 so here is a case where bigge isn't always bigger but you already bought your parts so you are married to them.

 

[SheSaid]

Do not machine the springs seat down by that much. I can't figure out why you need all that installed height. I'm running .620 lift and my installed height is 1.720 and I know Crane and a couple others make springs that will take that much lift with a 1.7ish installed height.



Whatever you do, go to b3racingengines.com and read ALL the tech pages he has posted. I can absolutely promise you that you will need to correct your geometry.

Make sure your valve job has a top cut .060 wide and .100 would be better but sometimes it's hard to get, especially if the valves are bigger than 2.02 so here is a case where bigge isn't always bigger but you already bought your parts so you are married to them.

Thank you for the info I will go to the site and do some reading!

 

[SheSaid]

Well, I mocked up the valves in the head next to the old valves and measured my current spring install height. With the valves sitting in the old valve seats I have 1.62" spring install height on the intake and 1.58" spring install height on the exhaust. I am aiming for 1.80" install height. So as of now I am going to see if I can set the valves .050" deeper than the way they sit now, take another .050" off the spring cup (unless I will hit water) and also remove the Hemi spring damper that has an additional .050 clip on the bottom of the spring. That would net me an install height of 1.77" on the intake and 1.73" on the exhaust. Seems very possible. I will know more once the guides are set and valve job is complete. Then we can actually measure the real spring install height. I need to physically measure these springs to figure out their open and closed pressures.

I found 5.7 Hemi valve guides for the 5/16 valve stems on RockAuto for less than $2.00 each. I also ordered hardened exhaust seats. This way I will have all the parts needed to do the valve job and will eliminate any head scratching at the machine shop.

I am considering doing the valve job and porting work backwards. Getting the guides and valve work completed first and then start porting, using clay or something to cover the valve seats. Not sure if anybody else has tried doing it that way.

 

[yellow rose]

Well, I mocked up the valves in the head next to the old valves and measured my current spring install height. With the valves sitting in the old valve seats I have 1.62" spring install height on the intake and 1.58" spring install height on the exhaust. I am aiming for 1.80" install height. So as of now I am going to see if I can set the valves .050" deeper than the way they sit now, take another .050" off the spring cup (unless I will hit water) and also remove the Hemi spring damper that has an additional .050 clip on the bottom of the spring. That would net me an install height of 1.77" on the intake and 1.73" on the exhaust. Seems very possible. I will know more once the guides are set and valve job is complete. Then we can actually measure the real spring install height. I need to physically measure these springs to figure out their open and closed pressures.

I found 5.7 Hemi valve guides for the 5/16 valve stems on RockAuto for less than $2.00 each. I also ordered hardened exhaust seats. This way I will have all the parts needed to do the valve job and will eliminate any head scratching at the machine shop.

I am considering doing the valve job and porting work backwards. Getting the guides and valve work completed first and then start porting, using clay or something to cover the valve seats. Not sure if anybody else has tried doing it that way.

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Ok, we need to slow way down and figure out what you are doing, and why. First, why do you think you need a 1.800 installed height? I run 1.72 or so and I NET .600 lift and that still gave me .090 to coil bind so I can shim .030 if I ever need to. You keep moving the tip of the valve up (towards the valve cover) by sinking the valve, or making the valve longer, just makes it harder to correct the rocker arm geometry. This is covered on the B3 racing site. At .620-650 lift you are pushing the stock valve gear to its limits.

Second, you always always always do the guides and seats BEFORE you port. Only run hard seats under the exhaust valve, not under the intake valve. It's a waste of money. The valve job establishes the percentage of bowl to valve among other things. If you aren't careful then cut the seats .030 smaller than finished diameter and then do the porting. You still have to finish the valve job and the port work without singing a seat.

Seems to me you are stuck on the 1.800 number and there is no need to get there. Do a good valve job, get the top cut .060-.100 wide and that should put you at 1.72 or so and that's good enough for .625 lift.

Didn't see the caliper pics. You already have all the installed height you need.

 

[SheSaid]

Ok, we need to slow way down and figure out what you are doing, and why. First, why do you think you need a 1.800 installed height? I run 1.72 or so and I NET .600 lift and that still gave me .090 to coil bind so I can shim .030 if I ever need to. You keep moving the tip of the valve up (towards the valve cover) by sinking the valve, or making the valve longer, just makes it harder to correct the rocker arm geometry. This is covered on the B3 racing site. At .620-650 lift you are pushing the stock valve gear to its limits.

Second, you always always always do the guides and seats BEFORE you port. Only run hard seats under the exhaust valve, not under the intake valve. It's a waste of money. The valve job establishes the percentage of bowl to valve among other things. If you aren't careful then cut the seats .030 smaller than finished diameter and then do the porting. You still have to finish the valve job and the port work without singing a seat.

Seems to me you are stuck on the 1.800 number and there is no need to get there. Do a good valve job, get the top cut .060-.100 wide and that should put you at 1.72 or so and that's good enough for .625 lift.

Didn't see the caliper pics. You already have all the installed height you need.

Hey thank man. I am listening.

The 1.80" installed height comes from stock specs for these springs as installed on a 6.1l hemi. I wanted to install them as close to stock height as I could so I could have the option to run as big of cam as possible. I see what your saying on geometry.

I also wanted as much install height as I can to avoid coil bind or excess spring pressure on the cam. I suppose that does not matter so much if I go with a roller cam.

Hardened seats are only going on exhaust side.

Sorry I'm a little confused what you meant on valve job and porting? So I need to have guides installed and then the valves roughed in to some extent, then port, then finish valve job and be done?

Appreciate all the help I can get! Thanks

 

[yellow rose]

Hey thank man. I am listening.

The 1.80" installed height comes from stock specs for these springs as installed on a 6.1l hemi. I wanted to install them as close to stock height as I could so I could have the option to run as big of cam as possible. I see what your saying on geometry.

I also wanted as much install height as I can to avoid coil bind or excess spring pressure on the cam. I suppose that does not matter so much if I go with a roller cam.

Hardened seats are only going on exhaust side.

Sorry I'm a little confused what you meant on valve job and porting? So I need to have guides installed and then the valves roughed in to some extent, then port, then finish valve job and be done?

Appreciate all the help I can get! Thanks

Yup, that's what I'm saying. Your valve job sets up the rest of the port. You have to have enough area in the port to feed the bowl.

As for springs and pressure, there are springs out there for pretty low installed heights that will allow .600 plus lift.

I try to run my street stuff .090-.100 from could bind and the race stuff .050-.060 because I shim the street stuff once but when a race spring loses enough pressure to need shimming I **** can them. Had too many break on a shim deal and that costs money to fix.

 

[SheSaid]

Hello FABO,

Got my X heads back from the valve job. The shop was really impressed with the small stem of the Hemi valves. With proper porting and bowl blending they said the heads should make good power. They had to cut the 2.08 intake down to 2.06 to get it out of the hardened exhaust seats, 2.08 is probably a little too big anyway.

Next step will be spending some time with a carbide burr to blend the valve job cuts into the bowl, gasket match the intake, and smooth everything out. Not looking to get crazy here, just some common sense clean up. Then finish the intake off with 80 grit, exhaust 120 grit rolls.

Once porting is done the heads will go back to the machine shop to clean up the deck, cc the chamber, and maybe flow the heads to see where i'm at on flow.

Still have some geometry to work out since the exhaust stem is shorter than the intake. Might need to buy a different spring to work with my lift. Picked up a new in box COMP CAMS XR274HR-10 from a swap meet. Not a crazy amount of lift but I need to check coil bind.

Thanks for all the help and ideas FABO.