360 block limits

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pittsburghracer said:
You talk about all this ability but I see guys giving up on fuel injection or taking it to someone to tune THEIR car. What good is that. Maybe ok for a street cruiser that keeps his hands off stuff but most of us don’t. I’ve never had to have a guy come tune my carb for me and then retune it after I add some more horsepower or a different cam I’ve been itching to try. Ohhh wait I can’t go racing this weekend I have to take my car to the dynojet to get a tune done on it. Lmao.
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I'm not discounting your observations and it's true that the learning curve of EFI is steeper than with a carburetor.

There is a lot to learn to get EFI to run. A lot of people make mistakes within initial startup and getting base tune parameters.. It takes some time and knowledge to get a good configuration compared to a "bolt on and drive away" carburettor.

But after your base tune is sorted, dialing in for wide open throttle is easily the quickest and easiest part of EFI tuning. It's the "driving around town" stuff that gets fiddly.

All modern ECUs have onboard datalogging so there's no strict necessity for dyno time.
You can make a run, play it back, make observations and implement any desired changes accordingly.

Specifically in the last 5 years the resources needed to learn to calibrate EFI have become much more widely available and affordable.

Having a small amount of experience with engine management calibration I found a website called "high performance academy" which offers webinars and instructional videos which have been extremely helpful and have allowed me to expand my knowledge in leaps and bounds.

I do like carburettors for their simplicity, but the more I learn about EFI calibration the more apparent it becomes that the difference between tuning with a laptop and tuning with jets or metering rods is like the difference between a scalpel and a hammer.

I'm 36 years old, what I've found is that guys 10yrs younger than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in carburetors at all because there are too many limitations, and guys 10rs older than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in learning to tune/install EFI at all because they're too complex or cost prohibitive.
 
Just Send It said:
E85 is awesome. And it's good insurance so long as you're not using winter blend.

I'd be interested to see if their systems were direct port or using a plate. I trust TPI with a carb and using kits that are +500hp. To me, plates can be sketchy above that level. That's just my experience.

There are plenty of guys going 8s with nitrous and a carb. Tons. But I've been doing this long enough to know that big horsepower kills parts. EFI allows the mill to live longer because I'M telling it what I want it to do. I can manipulate almost every function with the touch of a button and data log everything. I can also program it to shutdown in the event of a lean condition or a knock to save itself. Traction and wheelie control. The benefits far outweigh the negatives.

Technology is our friend in this case. It just costs more and there's a learning curve.
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They drive these cars all summer long even one has gone ice fishing!
 
frosty_the_punk said:
I'm 36 years old, what I've found is that guys 10yrs younger than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in carburetors at all because there are too many limitations, and guys 10rs older than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in learning to tune/install EFI at all because they're too complex or cost prohibitive.
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A lot of that is due to the fact that they didn't grow up with cars that had carbs. There haven't been many cars made since you were 5 or 6 that had carbs either, so most likely their only experience with cars once they were teenagers were already EFI oriented. So that's typically the era of performance they gravitate towards once they start hotrodding.
 
CNC-Dude said:
A lot of that is due to the fact that they didn't grow up with cars that had carbs. There haven't been many cars made since you were 5 or 6 that had carbs either, so most likely their only experience with cars once they were teenagers were already EFI oriented. So that's typically the era of performance they gravitate towards once they start hotrodding.
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Absolutely.
Not just that, but we're now getting to the point where the kids getting their licenses and buying their first cars today were practically born with a smartphone in their hand.

For them, Navigating the user interface of tuning software and inputting data is practically second nature to them.

My oldest niece is 10 years old, part of the curriculum at her rural country school (Less than 100 students) is software coding. Consumer level technology advances extremely fast, it's just how the world is now.

The things that people of an older generation like mine or my father's may find daunting or insurmountable can seem relatively typical for a younger generation.

And of course, sometimes vice versa as well!
There's surely fewer carburetor experts in business today than there would have been just 20 years ago.

All in all though, I do think when it comes to engines, it's well worth embracing the newer technology. Or at least giving it a crack.
 
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pittsburghracer said:
You talk about all this ability but I see guys giving up on fuel injection or taking it to someone to tune THEIR car.
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Back in about 2006 I built a Megasquirt kit, soldered all the components onto the PCB, programed the ECU, converted my Katana over to EFI and tuned it. 9500 Rpm.
Just requires some time and a brain.
 
Bakerlite said:
N2O or Nitrous Oxide
Nos is a company, people who use that term sound like real newbies.
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NOS is nitrous oxide systems and using the acronym is fine as long as you don’t say it like NAWS
 
TT5.9mag said:
NOS is nitrous oxide systems and using the acronym is fine as long as you don’t say it like NAWS
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It's like calling every carb you see a Holley. Want to sound like an uneducated Wally? Then just call it nos.
 
Exactly, Fast & Fury crew that know nothing.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Absolutely.
Not just that, but we're now getting to the point where the kids getting their licenses and buying their first cars today were practically born with a smartphone in their hand.

For them, Navigating the user interface of tuning software and inputting data is practically second nature to them.

My oldest niece is 10 years old, part of the curriculum at her rural country school (Less than 100 students) is software coding. Consumer level technology advances extremely fast, it's just how the world is now.

The things that people of an older generation like mine or my father's may find daunting or insurmountable can seem relatively typical for a younger generation.

And of course, sometimes vice versa as well!
There's surely fewer carburetor experts in business today than there would have been just 20 years ago.

All in all though, I do think when it comes to engines, it's well worth embracing the newer technology. Or at least giving it a crack.
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I just don't understand how people have issues setting up EFI, especially when you can log or use wide band based auto tuning.
 
58E8AE02-D5ED-4DCF-94DB-75387CA35DB4.png
 
Yeah the car has Naws

Naws Tyres, naws wheels, Naws engine... you know NAWS stuff. Just a Naws car.
 
Bakerlite said:
I just don't understand how people have issues setting up EFI, especially when you can log or use wide band based auto tuning.
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I only have a little experience with tuning an ECU so far, but I think the thing that makes a lot of people balk at EFI on their classic isn't so much the tuning. It's the conversion.

The time and expense of putting together a high pressure return-style fuel system, plus building a well insulated loom and then assigning all the inputs/outputs in your ECU is pretty huge compared to installing a carburetor.

But I think it's like anything else, the more you do it the easier it becomes.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
I'm not discounting your observations and it's true that the learning curve of EFI is steeper than with a carburetor.

There is a lot to learn to get EFI to run. A lot of people make mistakes within initial startup and getting base tune parameters.. It takes some time and knowledge to get a good configuration compared to a "bolt on and drive away" carburettor.

But after your base tune is sorted, dialing in for wide open throttle is easily the quickest and easiest part of EFI tuning. It's the "driving around town" stuff that gets fiddly.

All modern ECUs have onboard datalogging so there's no strict necessity for dyno time.
You can make a run, play it back, make observations and implement any desired changes accordingly.

Specifically in the last 5 years the resources needed to learn to calibrate EFI have become much more widely available and affordable.

Having a small amount of experience with engine management calibration I found a website called "high performance academy" which offers webinars and instructional videos which have been extremely helpful and have allowed me to expand my knowledge in leaps and bounds.

I do like carburettors for their simplicity, but the more I learn about EFI calibration the more apparent it becomes that the difference between tuning with a laptop and tuning with jets or metering rods is like the difference between a scalpel and a hammer.

I'm 36 years old, what I've found is that guys 10yrs younger than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in carburetors at all because there are too many limitations, and guys 10rs older than me overwhelmingly aren't interested in learning to tune/install EFI at all because they're too complex or cost prohibitive.
Click to expand...
Learning curve? If that was all there was to tuning EFI, everybody'd have it. I have a local friend who does high end restorations and builds. Almost all are LS powered with some sort of aftermarket EFI. Almost every one of his ends up "unfinished" because once he gets them "running" his customers rarely want to spend the 800 or so dollars to send it out to get it tuned. ......and to get them dead right, you have to have a dyno. I always thought that was rather funny that a customer spending between 75 and 100K on a build or restoration balks at 800-1000 for a tune, but almost every one of them do.....and then their junk only runs as a shadow of itself and they ***** to everyone they can find what a shitty job the builder did. No, there's much more than just a learning curve. At least with a carburetor, you can figure it out between you and the dragstrip.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Learning curve? If that was all there was to tuning EFI, everybody'd have it. I have a local friend who does high end restorations and builds. Almost all are LS powered with some sort of aftermarket EFI. Almost every one of his ends up "unfinished" because once he gets them "running" his customers rarely want to spend the 800 or so dollars to send it out to get it tuned. ......and to get them dead right, you have to have a dyno. I always thought that was rather funny that a customer spending between 75 and 100K on a build or restoration balks at 800-1000 for a tune, but almost every one of them do.....and then their junk only runs as a shadow of itself and they ***** to everyone they can find what a shitty job the builder did. No, there's much more than just a learning curve. At least with a carburetor, you can figure it out between you and the dragstrip.
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Yup, and every time those guys change out a part { upgrade } it's back to the tuner for another hit to the wallet.
 
People rarely have their carbs in perfect tune either.
You don't need a dyno to dial in EFI, the same way you don't need a dyno to dial in a carb.
Which do you think is quicker to dial in?
A carb, with all it's associated parts, that you have to shut the engine down to change, or EFI, that can be altered in real time, as well as the timing curve.
Most people who carry on about carbs being easier to tune than EFI have never changed a power valve restriction or an air bleed in their lifetime.
People who get EFI and then are are not interested in understanding and tune it should just stick to a 600 vac sec Holley.
 
Bakerlite said:
People rarely have their carbs in perfect tune either.
You don't need a dyno to dial in EFI, the same way you don't need a dyno to dial in a carb.
Which do you think is quicker to dial in?
A carb, with all it's associated parts, that you have to shut the engine down to change, or EFI, that can be altered in real time, as well as the timing curve.
Most people who carry on about carbs being easier to tune than EFI have never changed a power valve restriction or an air bleed in their lifetime.
People who get EFI and then are are not interested in understanding and tune it should just stick to a 600 vac sec Holley.
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I don't disagree with that, however, people with carburetors certainly have more than just a "base tune". I've seen a lot and I mean a LOT of high end builds leave with nothing more than what the car cranked up with. All because they would not pay extra for a tune....and that's just stupid.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Learning curve? If that was all there was to tuning EFI, everybody'd have it. I have a local friend who does high end restorations and builds. Almost all are LS powered with some sort of aftermarket EFI. Almost every one of his ends up "unfinished" because once he gets them "running" his customers rarely want to spend the 800 or so dollars to send it out to get it tuned. ......and to get them dead right, you have to have a dyno. I always thought that was rather funny that a customer spending between 75 and 100K on a build or restoration balks at 800-1000 for a tune, but almost every one of them do.....and then their junk only runs as a shadow of itself and they ***** to everyone they can find what a shitty job the builder did. No, there's much more than just a learning curve. At least with a carburetor, you can figure it out between you and the dragstrip.
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I understand what you're saying but still I think learning curve is correct, there's quite a bit of prerequisite knowledge involved in getting started with EFI, and a lot of it isn't intuitive but all the information is available.

Sometimes people act as if EFI tuning is some kind of black art. But if I can learn it then anyone can.

(I had written/deleted a somewhat lengthy summary of some of the more common pitfalls which people fall into when trying to tune EFI for the first time, including inaccurate sensor calibration, injector scaling/data and altering the VE table with fuel trims active/enabled. But this is all really better left to a more relevant thread)

It's very optimistic for people to think they can just "figure it out as you go" and do a whole bunch of "let's see what this button does" and end up with a well optimized engine.

The good news is that there are resources available for those who want to learn.

I don't think it's strictly true that you need to have a dyno to tune EFI, especially with how comprehensive modern datalogging is.

But for a road car...no matter how much steady state dyno time you shell-out for, you will absolutely need on-road feedback to take the rough edges out of the tune.

The biggest advantage of a steady state dyno isn't fuel related at all. It's the ability to optimize ignition timing for MBT while avoiding knock, and this is equally true of both carbs and EFI.

That being said, I probably wouldn't use a 75k build with a professionally built engine as my first ever "test mule" for learning how to tune EFI.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
I understand what you're saying but still I think learning curve is correct, there's quite a bit of prerequisite knowledge involved in getting started with EFI, and a lot of it isn't intuitive but all the information is available.

Sometimes people act as if EFI tuning is some kind of black art. But if I can learn it then anyone can.

(I had written/deleted a somewhat lengthy summary of some of the more common pitfalls which people fall into when trying to tune EFI for the first time, including inaccurate sensor calibration, injector scaling/data and altering the VE table with fuel trims active/enabled. But this is all really better left to a more relevant thread)

It's very optimistic for people to think they can just "figure it out as you go" and do a whole bunch of "let's see what this button does" and end up with a well optimized engine.

The good news is that there are resources available for those who want to learn.

I don't think it's strictly true that you need to have a dyno to tune EFI, especially with how comprehensive modern datalogging is.

But for a road car...no matter how much steady state dyno time you shell-out for, you will absolutely need on-road feedback to take the rough edges out of the tune.

The biggest advantage of a steady state dyno isn't fuel related at all. It's the ability to optimize ignition timing for MBT while avoiding knock, and this is equally true of both carbs and EFI.

That being said, I probably wouldn't use a 75k build with a professionally built engine as my first ever "test mule" for learning how to tune EFI.
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Maybe if you add in "dyno purchase" with learning curve, I'd be onboard.
 
I used to laugh at the LS kids around here. Friends with many of them since birth they would take their car to the local dyno jet and “the man” would come in to tune their cars. By time they paid the man and dyno jet time they were broke. Lol
 
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