360 heads on a 318

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ok here is my 2 cents.
The 360 ports are larger then the 318 by a bit. I would much rather port the 318 head then put the 360 head on but understand the "run what you brung" kinda mentality. well i get it.
So you're set. it's going to be a 318 with 360 heads.................I would probably shave enough to get the same compression you have now. why? because if you build more compression then you had before, it could colaptes your piston rings causing it to smoke......o boy this is going to be a long post!
I had a 73 barracuda with a 318 and a auto. put a better cam shaft in it and it ran much better(along with a set of header.) The problem was that when you revved it up it would pore out a haze of oil. It was the best way to get some one off my ***! 2.76 rear end gears equaled 3000 rpm in 2nt gear. Ride may *** and i will turn on the smoke machine:D
Any ways, it had a lot of miles on it. any ways......
with the 360 ports i would NOT open up the bowl on the exh side! i would clean up the roof area, and leave it at that.
Open up the bowl area on the intake side, but not a lot! What "318willrun" show in his video, in that first minute on the intake. that's as far as i would go. next look in the port and fix all the imperfection in the casting of the port. and stop there. Make sure the guide are not to bad, install new valve seals and call it a day.

the reason i say this, is it is REAL EASY TO GET CARRIED AWAY once you start porting. and remember, where you enlarged it here to fix, this that or the other......... now you have to go back and do the same to the ports you were already done with.
Just a light clean up to all the intake ports, then you will be more proficient at the porting tools and can get a little bit more precise.
Remember, You Nick that "SEAT".....Now you have to do a valve job on the head......More dollar signs, then you might as well put guide in it......might as well put hardened exh seat in while you at it.........and it goes on and on and on. But i'm going to stop here:)
 
Putting a cam and lifters in this 318 and switching to some 360 heads and just making it all run properly will be great experience and a very cheap education getting you ready for that 340 where things will start getting more costly
 
Hey
racerdan80 said:
On the cams, what stall torque converter do you have? Rear gears and tire size? The old 340 cam would work, the increased lift is certainly an improvement over the factory .373/.399 lift. However too much duration can lose torque down low in rpm. Maybe something in the 256 duration. Love the charger by the way. I've never actually seen one of those in person here in the states.
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Hey, and thanks for the complement on the Charger. I live in Scotland but there is at least 2 in the US and I believe Jay Leno has one too. :D

Im 99% sure its just a standard 904, rear gears are 2.92 and the rear wheel height is 24 inches.

Andy
 
Cudafever said:
ok here is my 2 cents.
The 360 ports are larger then the 318 by a bit. I would much rather port the 318 head then put the 360 head on but understand the "run what you brung" kinda mentality. well i get it.
So you're set. it's going to be a 318 with 360 heads.................I would probably shave enough to get the same compression you have now. why? because if you build more compression then you had before, it could colaptes your piston rings causing it to smoke......o boy this is going to be a long post!
I had a 73 barracuda with a 318 and a auto. put a better cam shaft in it and it ran much better(along with a set of header.) The problem was that when you revved it up it would pore out a haze of oil. It was the best way to get some one off my ***! 2.76 rear end gears equaled 3000 rpm in 2nt gear. Ride may *** and i will turn on the smoke machine:D
Any ways, it had a lot of miles on it. any ways......
with the 360 ports i would NOT open up the bowl on the exh side! i would clean up the roof area, and leave it at that.
Open up the bowl area on the intake side, but not a lot! What "318willrun" show in his video, in that first minute on the intake. that's as far as i would go. next look in the port and fix all the imperfection in the casting of the port. and stop there. Make sure the guide are not to bad, install new valve seals and call it a day.

the reason i say this, is it is REAL EASY TO GET CARRIED AWAY once you start porting. and remember, where you enlarged it here to fix, this that or the other......... now you have to go back and do the same to the ports you were already done with.
Just a light clean up to all the intake ports, then you will be more proficient at the porting tools and can get a little bit more precise.
Remember, You Nick that "SEAT".....Now you have to do a valve job on the head......More dollar signs, then you might as well put guide in it......might as well put hardened exh seat in while you at it.........and it goes on and on and on. But i'm going to stop here:)
Click to expand...


Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a long reply. Food for thought for sure. :) Yes, getting carried away is what I seem to be good at and what I seem to be doing. :p Great advice on the heads and something I should take onboard.
 
Very
j par said:
Putting a cam and lifters in this 318 and switching to some 360 heads and just making it all run properly will be great experience and a very cheap education getting you ready for that 340 where things will start getting more costly
Click to expand...


Very true, a good learning experiance for me. :D Would you recommend fully dialing in the Cam or just lining up the Dots? Reason being I dont have any of the equipment and Id have to buy everything, where as the local engine shop is recommended all over Scotland and can do it fairly cheaply when I away off-shore for 3 weeks.
 
trigger_andy said:
Very



Very true, a good learning experiance for me. :D Would you recommend fully dialing in the Cam or just lining up the Dots? Reason being I dont have any of the equipment and Id have to buy everything, where as the local engine shop is recommended all over Scotland and can do it fairly cheaply when I away off-shore for 3 weeks.
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I forgot to add the 318 has Headers and Dual Exhaust.
 
trigger_andy said:
Very



Very true, a good learning experiance for me. :D Would you recommend fully dialing in the Cam or just lining up the Dots? Reason being I dont have any of the equipment and Id have to buy everything, where as the local engine shop is recommended all over Scotland and can do it fairly cheaply when I away off-shore for 3 weeks.
Click to expand...

If you want the most out of your $$$ it is ALWAYS a good idea.
 
Cudafever said:
I had a 73 barracuda with a 318 and a auto. put a better cam shaft in it and it ran much better(along with a set of header.) The problem was that when you revved it up it would pore out a haze of oil.
Click to expand...
The rings, and in particular the piston ring grooves, were very likely well worn at that point, and revving with the better cam put more twisting action on the rings in the worn ring grooves. The end result here may or may not be similar.
 
trigger_andy said:
Very true, a good learning experiance for me. :D Would you recommend fully dialing in the Cam or just lining up the Dots? Reason being I dont have any of the equipment and Id have to buy everything, where as the local engine shop is recommended all over Scotland and can do it fairly cheaply when I away off-shore for 3 weeks.
Click to expand...
I'll assume you would put in a new timing chain; that is pretty important. If so, it would be easy to buy one with built in grooves for adjusting the timing +/- 4 degrees so you could get it close to where wanted. So that is just a modified way to 'align the dots'. Heck, I even timed a nearly stock /6, because of how much it effects the low and mid RPM throttle response for a stock or mild cam.

But, just doing dot-to-dot with a new chain would not be a disaster, so I would not blame anyone for just doing that for a simple build to save time. You're maybe gonna get tired of that porting work anyway.... can you take it to the rig? I did a pair of heads when I was on 24 hour shift watch once upon a time....

BTW a timing wheel is for free off of the internet: look at the link below. Just print this out and paste to some foam-cored posterboard, and voila, you have a degree wheel for peanuts. Mount it to the crank with the stock damper bolt and some flat washers. A timing reference pointer is just a wire under a timing cover bolt. You can make a timing stop out of an old spark plug body and a bolt while you are out there on the rig.....or, they are not too pricey.

The Machinery Cleanery Universal Timing Disc, Degree Wheel, Downloadable - Goniometro per Messa in Fase dei Motori a 4 Tempi -
 
nm9stheham said:
The rings, and in particular the piston ring grooves, were very likely well worn at that point, and revving with the better cam put more twisting action on the rings in the worn ring grooves. The end result here may or may not be similar.
Click to expand...

I guess noting I could not live with for a season? :D I doubt the Charger would see more then 2-3000 miles at most.
 
j par said:
Putting a cam and lifters in this 318 and switching to some 360 heads and just making it all run properly will be great experience and a very cheap education getting you ready for that 340 where things will start getting more costly
Click to expand...
I second this.... it's a good step to bigger things. Be sure you read up on proper cam and lifter lube (use moly type) and using the right oil for the flat tappet cam with adequate levels of zinc and phosphorous (ZDDP). You will need this knowledge in anything you do.
 
nm9stheham said:
I'll assume you would put in a new timing chain; that is pretty important. If so, it would be easy to buy one with built in grooves for adjusting the timing +/- 4 degrees so you could get it close to where wanted. So that is just a modified way to 'align the dots'. Heck, I even timed a nearly stock /6, because of how much it effects the low and mid RPM throttle response for a stock or mild cam.

But, just doing dot-to-dot with a new chain would not be a disaster, so I would not blame anyone for just doing that for a simple build to save time. You're maybe gonna get tired of that porting work anyway.... can you take it to the rig? I did a pair of heads when I was on 24 hour shift watch once upon a time....

BTW a timing wheel is for free off of the internet: look at the link below. Just print this out and paste to some foam-cored posterboard, and voila, you have a degree wheel for peanuts. Mount it to the crank with the stock damper bolt and some flat washers. A timing reference pointer is just a wire under a timing cover bolt. You can make a timing stop out of an old spark plug body and a bolt while you are out there on the rig.....or, they are not too pricey.

The Machinery Cleanery Universal Timing Disc, Degree Wheel, Downloadable - Goniometro per Messa in Fase dei Motori a 4 Tempi -
Click to expand...

Cheers, saved the link and I'll print when I get home! :D

I wish I could bring a head with me to the Rig, this trip Ive not done a thing apart from read mopar related articles. Been a great change to get some knowledge in my head, take a bunch of notes taken, called a few garages and also saved a bunch of links for when I get home. Been out here 12 days and another 9 to go, itching to get home. :D

Im not really following all the in's and outs of what you suggest doing with wires and Spark Plugs but I'll go do some more reserch and hopefuly learn something today too. :D

When I get home I have 4 weeks to play! :D
 
j par said:
Something like this (Summit Racing® Cam Kits SUM-K50062) should have you keeping both feet on the break at a stop LOL
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I am assuming this is not the cam intended to be suggested; it has advertised durations of 285*. If the OP achieves a true 8:1 SCR, this will drop the DCR to around 6.0.... ! Not at all good for cruising with the kids and a stock torque converter; this is a revving cam and I would not expect it do much anything below 3000 RPM... except use a lot of fuel.

The suggestion of a 256 advertised duration cam made earlier is much more appropriate; my preference would be that or a 252 for the OP's application. Cams like the Lunati 10200700 or 10200701 come to mind; these are not MAX HP cams but are cams that maintain good low RPM torque and driveability, and increase breathing with lift more than with duration. The low SCR of the 318 has to be kept in mind; if this was going to the track all the time, then things would be different.

I am sure someone like 318willrun has some good ideas on some inexpensive valve springs.
 
Wouldn't it just be easier for the OP to sell the 360 heads and buy a set of 302 casting heads?? He'll get 69CC chambers and larger exhaust ports. If he wants to port the 302s it will only make them better. The money he saves on milling (to lower compression on the 360 heads) can be used to offset the cost of the 302 heads.
This would be the easiest route to get good compression and good exhaust ports (and no milling).

Treblig
 
Treblig said:
Wouldn't it just be easier for the OP to sell the 360 heads and buy a set of 302 casting heads?? He'll get 69CC chambers and larger exhaust ports. If he wants to port the 302s it will only make them better. The money he saves on milling (to lower compression on the 360 heads) can be used to offset the cost of the 302 heads.
This would be the easiest route to get good compression and good exhaust ports (and no milling).

Treblig
Click to expand...
It may not be easy to find 302 heads in Scotland. Sounds like he is just assembling a short term "drive while he builds" 318. I would stick with the 360 heads if he knows they are good heads. Another question for the OP is do the 360 heads have the rotator retainers (exhaust only)? If so, it would be a good idea to replace them with the ones from the 318 heads. If you don't have the rotators, the 360 valve springs may work just fine. I've used them before on engines I've revved to 5500 rpm's consistently and never had a problem. Save the change $$$$ for the 340 :)
 
318willrun said:
It may not be easy to find 302 heads in Scotland. Sounds like he is just assembling a short term "drive while he builds" 318. I would stick with the 360 heads if he knows they are good heads. Another question for the OP is do the 360 heads have the rotator retainers (exhaust only)? If so, it would be a good idea to replace them with the ones from the 318 heads. If you don't have the rotators, the 360 valve springs may work just fine. I've used them before on engines I've revved to 5500 rpm's consistently and never had a problem. Save the change $$$$ for the 340 :)
Click to expand...


Thank you. :) Yes, there is nothing for sale over here on any of the Mopar, Hotrod or ebay websites. :(

I have no idea what rotator retainers are, haha. The 360 heads are bare apart from the valves themselves.

Yes, this 318 is getting silly now and I still have to pay for the shipping of it over to the UK plus tax when it lands then shipping to Scotland. :O
 
Oh yeah good point about the timing chain. Definitely a new timing chain nothing expensive just knew. Don't go buying some expensive timing chain thinking it to the do something for you. Anything metal is got to be better then the plastic piece of crap that came stock, That will likely be worn out.
Of course that cam that I suggested was probably just as over the wild end but sometimes I post stuff like that just to make other people crazy knowing that you're not going to go get a cam quite that big. But I would suggest something almost as big At any rate if you want to feel a serious change. Of course this is just all experimental if you over cam it and put something too big but not so big it broke stuff like pushrods and stuff, will probably have fun with it and know what to do next time. I am keeping in mind this is just an experiment for you and you want to see what happens if you do something? Just kind of using the stuff that you have and spending a little bit of money to make it all work. I think with the 360 head that you have cleaning them up a little bit As stated throwing a new cam and lifters in there while you're in there and have all the gaskets off anyways this is a fun idea. just as long as you keep it within a reasonable budget that you can get most of your money back out when you sell the motor. You are talking to someone who understands budget just as good as most. Remember think cheap! Cheap Cam and lifters cheap timing chain and doing the work yourself.
 
trigger_andy said:
Thank you. :) Yes, there is nothing for sale over here on any of the Mopar, Hotrod or ebay websites. :(

I have no idea what rotator retainers are, haha. The 360 heads are bare apart from the valves themselves.

Yes, this 318 is getting silly now and I still have to pay for the shipping of it over to the UK plus tax when it lands then shipping to Scotland. :O
Click to expand...
In the 1st 30 seconds of this video, I show a rotator retainer.

 
318willrun said:
It may not be easy to find 302 heads in Scotland. Sounds like he is just assembling a short term "drive while he builds" 318. I would stick with the 360 heads if he knows they are good heads. Another question for the OP is do the 360 heads have the rotator retainers (exhaust only)? If so, it would be a good idea to replace them with the ones from the 318 heads. If you don't have the rotators, the 360 valve springs may work just fine. I've used them before on engines I've revved to 5500 rpm's consistently and never had a problem. Save the change $$$$ for the 340 :)
Click to expand...


Thank you. :) Yes, there is nothing for sale over here on any of the Mopar, Hotrod or ebay websites. :(

I have no idea what rotator retainers are, haha. The 360 heads are bare apart from the valves themselves.

Yes, this 318 is getting silly now and I still have to pay for the shipping of it over to the UK plus tax when it lands then shipping to Scotland. :O
318willrun said:
In the 1st 30 seconds of this video, I show a rotator retainer.

Click to expand...


Ok, cheers. :) I cant open videos off-shore, Ill have a look when I get home. :)
 
trigger_andy said:
Yes, this 318 is getting silly now and I still have to pay for the shipping of it over to the UK plus tax when it lands then shipping to Scotland. :O
Click to expand...

Yeah, the folks overseas have to bring us back to earth on things like import duties and shipping. Plus it is always easier to dream with someone else's money and labor LOL

I'll just offer this: I don't think you are going to see much change with the head change and the stock cam. BTDT. It might rev a bit higher and a tiny bit more quickly, but low end torque (where the cammed flow will not change appreciably) will not change hardly at all; a new timing chain will very likely give you more driveability improvements at low RPM's than the 360 heads. And, the stock cam will not take any real advantage of the improved breathing in the 360 heads at high RPMs. The cam is what is really and truly going to control what is going on in the engine at this level.

Honestly, I'd change the cam before I'd change the heads if I was just wanting to perk up the 318 for pure street/cruise use.
 
nm9stheham said:
Yeah, the folks overseas have to bring us back to earth on things like import duties and shipping. Plus it is always easier to dream with someone else's money and labor LOL

I'll just offer this: I don't think you are going to see much change with the head change and the stock cam. BTDT. It might rev a bit higher and a tiny bit more quickly, but low end torque (where the cammed flow will not change appreciably) will not change hardly at all; a new timing chain will very likely give you more driveability improvements at low RPM's than the 360 heads. And, the stock cam will not take any real advantage of the improved breathing in the 360 heads at high RPMs. The cam is what is really and truly going to control what is going on in the engine at this level.

Honestly, I'd change the cam before I'd change the heads if I was just wanting to perk up the 318 for pure street/cruise use.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to say the 340 coming over from the US still needs the shipping, tax and shipping within the UK paid for. If I was to start buying parts for the 318 I'd also have to pay shipping and tax on all that too.

Well, Ive been asked to stay on this platform for potentially an extra two weeks on Overtime, might give me a chance to sourse some heads and other goodies. Lets see what happens. :D
 
318willrun said:
In the 1st 30 seconds of this video, I show a rotator retainer.

Click to expand...


When you pulled the stone out and started to open up the bowl area on the intake side. In that video you spent a minute, starting to open up the the bowl. In my opinion, that's as much as he should take out. Remember, this is a 360 head not a 318.
 
Cudafever said:
When you pulled the stone out and started to open up the bowl area on the intake side. In that video you spent a minute, starting to open up the the bowl. In my opinion, that's as much as he should take out. Remember, this is a 360 head not a 318.
Click to expand...
Depends on the purpose he has planned specifically. He wouldn't need to port anything and he'll pick up flow going to 360 heads just because of the larger ports and valves. Yes, I agree, very little porting may be all he wants to do. I have, however, ported 360 heads more than once for a stock block 318 had good results (had headers also). I cut the heads .040 too. On one I used a .474 MP cam but no matter I've never had an issue with performance from them.
 
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