400 hp 5.2l vs 5.9l Magnums

[273]

Surprisingly similar builds making 400-409 hp just where you want your hp to peak 5400-5600 rpm or 5900-6200 rpm.
Geared right you would have a strong runner either way.

5.2l Magnum heads
Mopar 318 Engine - Car Craft Magazine

5.9l 380hp create, Magnum heads
360 Crate Engine Buildup & Dyno - Mopar Muscle Magazine

5.2l EQ heads
Chrysler 318 Engine - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine
5.9l EQ heads
5.9L Magnum Engine - Make Mine A 5.9


Bonus 400 hp 318 build ported 302 heads
318 Small Block Build - How To - Hot Rod Magazine

 

[mgoblue9798]

HP may be the same, but the torque curves of 318 v/s 360 are miles apart.

 

[273]

HP may be the same, but the torque curves of 318 v/s 360 are miles apart.

Not once you factor gearing into the equation.

 

[mgoblue9798]

Not once you factor gearing into the equation.

Sure there are trade offs that be made, but the 5.9 crate engine made 440 ft lbs at 4100 rpm with stock 9 to 1 compression, while the 5.2 magnum build with KB pistons at 10 to 1 and quench made 382 ft lbs at 4900.

Apples to apples that is a huge difference.

 

[67Dart273]

Not once you factor gearing into the equation.

Not even close to the trooph

And with enough port to feed them, and keeping piston speed safe, at least for multipurpose cars, read that "street strip" a wide torque curve is always better. ALWAYS.

As impressive as the 67--69 Z28 'Mar--oos were with that nasty 302, I would not have one jammed up my *** for everyday use.

 

[273]

Sure there are trade offs that be made, but the 5.9 crate engine made 440 ft lbs at 4100 rpm with stock 9 to 1 compression, while the 5.2 magnum build with KB pistons at 10 to 1 and quench made 382 ft lbs at 4900.

Apples to apples that is a huge difference.

The create also has a slightly bigger cam, 1 point of cr is about 3-4% power increase so 12-16 hp. Torque to the ground is more important than at the crank, a 318 is gonna need about a 13% deeper gear than a 360 there's only a 15% difference between those torque peaks.

 

[mgoblue9798]

The create also has a slightly bigger cam, 1 point of cr is about 3-4% power increase so 12-16 hp. Torque to the ground is more important than at the crank, a 318 is gonna need about a 13% deeper gear than a 360 there's only a 15% difference between those torque peaks.

Or you can look at it this way. To gear the 318 to do the same job as the 360 would require an overdrive trans.

Not knocking a 318 build at all. Just apples to oranges comparison being made thats all.

 

[273]

Not even close to the trooph

And with enough port to feed them, and keeping piston speed safe, at least for multipurpose cars, read that "street strip" a wide torque curve is always better. ALWAYS.

As impressive as the 67--69 Z28 'Mar--oos were with that nasty 302, I would not have one jammed up my *** for everyday use.

The 318 has a flatter curve around the peak at 4900 there's only 11 lbs-ft variance from 3500-5500 rpm the 360 spends most of it time around 400 lbs-ft with a 40 lbs-ft bump at 4000 - 4500 rpm.

 

[273]

Or you can look at it this way. To gear the 318 to do the same job as the 360 would require an overdrive trans.

Not knocking a 318 build at all. Just apples to oranges comparison being made thats all.

Of course it ain't apples to apples parts are slightly different and displacement is quite a bit different but the results are surprisingly close by what most would assume.

No question larger engines are generally more streetable with similar performance.

All am saying is if geared, stalled correctly for maximum 1/4 mile performance it would be close.

 

[greymouser7]

The create also has a slightly bigger cam, 1 point of cr is about 3-4% power increase so 12-16 hp. Torque to the ground is more important than at the crank, a 318 is gonna need about a 13% deeper gear than a 360 there's only a 15% difference between those torque peaks.

I question this. In reality, even with 13% more gear with a 5.2 Liter, WHICH ONE WOULD YOU TOW WITH?
That seems to put the perspective of effective torque.
While hundreds of pounds of torque isn't NEEDED in an A body, it gratifies results faster, and if you don't have your foot in it to the floor, maybe with less fuel if you baby it (to some degree of diminishing returns).

 

[rumblefish360]

Surprisingly similar builds making 400-409 hp just where you want your hp to peak 5400-5600 rpm or 5900-6200 rpm.
Geared right you would have a strong runner either way.

5.2l Magnum heads
Mopar 318 Engine - Car Craft Magazine

5.9l 380hp create, Magnum heads
360 Crate Engine Buildup & Dyno - Mopar Muscle Magazine

5.2l EQ heads
Chrysler 318 Engine - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine
5.9l EQ heads
5.9L Magnum Engine - Make Mine A 5.9


Bonus 400 hp 318 build ported 302 heads
318 Small Block Build - How To - Hot Rod Magazine

Are these not in the magazine build thread?
And why bring them up?

Not once you factor gearing into the equation.

What’s good for one can be good for another.
Sounds like you’re championing the 318/5.2 here.
To what end?

The create also has a slightly bigger cam, 1 point of cr is about 3-4% power increase so 12-16 hp. Torque to the ground is more important than at the crank, a 318 is gonna need about a 13% deeper gear than a 360 there's only a 15% difference between those torque peaks.

Torque to the ground is a car chassis issue, not the engine. So torque at the crank is important. Saying otherwise is insanity and stupid.

So, have you cleared out your in box yet?
I’ve got a few choice words for you and a few questions!

 

[glockr]

This should be fun

 

[273]

Are these not in the magazine build thread?
And why bring them up?

Cause me and cousin are thinking of doing a youtube channel, for one our projects he's got engineless 340 Dustee that's been sitting around a decade or so and I got a beat up Grand Cherokee that we could do a series on low dollar build and do some racing with them. So I was looking at 5.2l magnum builds and notice how close they were to the 380 hp create engine. And thought some would be interested.

What’s good for one can be good for another.
Sounds like you’re championing the 318/5.2 here.
To what end?

I don't care what people build as long they know what their getting into. I only defend 318 cause people's criticism of the 318 are way over exaggerated like performance part ceases to function in a 318.

If I was to push only one mopar engine it would be a 440 pretty much no matter what power level were talking.

The reason I'm thinking 5.2l for me and my cousin is there pretty easy to get around here fairly cheap and streetability ain't a huge concern, mainly though we're starting off NA but plan on playing around with nitrous, ebay turbo's etc.. So buy a few extra if we blow them up we blow them up

Torque to the ground is a car chassis issue, not the engine. So torque at the crank is important.

Yes what an engine makes at the dyno/crank is important but what is more important is what actually gets to the ground and when. And gears are a major part if that.

Saying otherwise is insanity and stupid.

So, have you cleared out your in box yet?
I’ve got a few choice words for you and a few questions!

Yes I have, Kewl

 

[273]

I question this. In reality, even with 13% more gear with a 5.2 Liter, WHICH ONE WOULD YOU TOW WITH?
That seems to put the perspective of effective torque.

Technically if both engines have similar hp powerband both should be go to go. But generally you don't want have to spin a work engines wears out quicker but gearing can do a lot look at rock crawlers they can spin the engine at peak power rpm usually decently high at slower than walking speed. Why people like diesel is peak power isn't too far from idle.

While hundreds of pounds of torque isn't NEEDED in an A body, it gratifies results faster, and if you don't have your foot in it to the floor, maybe with less fuel if you baby it (to some degree of diminishing returns).

Torque is basically one powerstroke, hp is all the powerstrokes added up over time "rpm"

A bigger engine may make more per powerstroke "Torque" but smaller engine will have more powerstrokes to add up "rpm*. Which will balance out if making same hp.

 

[rumblefish360]

Cause me and cousin are thinking of doing a youtube channel, for one our projects he's got engineless 340 Dustee that's been sitting around a decade or so and I got a beat up Grand Cherokee that we could do a series on low dollar build and do some racing with them. So I was looking at 5.2l magnum builds and notice how close they were to the 380 hp create engine. And thought some would be interested.

Excellent!!!!! You have a channel up now?
Do so post it up!

I don't care what people build as long they know what they’re getting into. I only defend 318 cause people's criticism of the 318 are way over exaggerated like performance part ceases to function in a 318.

Oh I’ve been down that path a few times!

If I was to push only one mopar engine it would be a 440 pretty much no matter what power level were talking.

The reason I'm thinking 5.2l for me and my cousin is there pretty easy to get around here fairly cheap and streetability ain't a huge concern, mainly though we're starting off NA but plan on playing around with nitrous, ebay turbo's etc.. So buy a few extra if we blow them up we blow them up

LMAO! Now that sounds like spirt!

Yes what an engine makes at the dyno/crank is important but what is more important is what actually gets to the ground and when. And gears are a major part if that.

See there and before your comparing engines and when someone stated the superiority of the larger engine you made and excuse for the engine in a one up man’s hip manor of adding gears to multiply the torque of the engine output which was misleading and false and stupid since it can be done to the other engine.

It was a moot point to bring up and then to further the craziness of it you move the engine argument which you lost you double down on the suspension issue which shouldn’t even be brought up in an engine discussion. It’s retarded.

Yes I have, Kewl

Good!

 

[rumblefish360]

A bigger engine may make more per powerstroke "Torque" but smaller engine will have more powerstrokes to add up "rpm*. Which will balance out if making same hp.

This is inaccurate. Think about it.
Also what are your parameters to define bigger engine / smaller engine?

 

[273]

Excellent!!!!! You have a channel up now?
Do so post it up!

Were just in planning stage.

See there and before your comparing engines and when someone stated the superiority of the larger engine you made and excuse for the engine in a one up man’s hip manor of adding gears to multiply the torque of the engine output which was misleading and false and stupid since it can be done to the other engine.

When saying gear right, the questions becomes what is right obviously people can gear however they choose. If were building a performance engine even if the goal is vague like a burn out throttle blimp machine you still want it to look perform in general distance and speed even in the street Eg... Idle or rolling start to 60-100 mph maybe more. Quarter or eight mile is easy it's there's a point where more gear won't help and the gearing needed for maximum 1/4 time will be different for a 318 and 360 and if both have similar hp curves you'll find torque to the ground is similar for both. You can gear however you want but it's not the fault or defect of the smaller engine if you didn't gear to take advantage of it. Which is why most should build the largest engine you can cause the gears people generally run 3.23-3.91 are gonna be more suited to it.

Generally when I say gear it right it would be with the max performance in the quarter mile in mind there has to be some common goal to compare from. I'm not saying people need/must gear for 1/4 mile but when comparing a 400 hp 318 to a 400 hp 440 both running 3.23 gears obviously the 318 is further away from running optimal gearing than the 440. The 318 would need around 38% more gear to be compromised the same so 4.46 4.30-4.56 would be the choices.

 

[273]

This is inaccurate. Think about it.
Also what are your parameters to define bigger engine / smaller engine?

A difference that will have a noticeable effect on torque and rpm when talking same/similar power so like 340 vs 360 probably not 360 vs 365.

 

[rumblefish360]

A difference that will have a noticeable effect on torque and rpm when talking same/similar power so like 340 vs 360 probably not 360 vs 365.

How about the same stroke engine then. You covered different strokes. B Engine 3.38 and a 361 bore vs 400 bore.

Your very grey.

 

[rumblefish360]

Were just in planning stage.



When saying gear right, the questions becomes what is right obviously people can gear however they choose. If were building a performance engine even if the goal is vague like a burn out throttle blimp machine you still want it to look perform in general distance and speed even in the street Eg... Idle or rolling start to 60-100 mph maybe more. Quarter or eight mile is easy it's there's a point where more gear won't help and the gearing needed for maximum 1/4 time will be different for a 318 and 360 and if both have similar hp curves you'll find torque to the ground is similar for both. You can gear however you want but it's not the fault or defect of the smaller engine if you didn't gear to take advantage of it. Which is why most should build the largest engine you can cause the gears people generally run 3.23-3.91 are gonna be more suited to it.

Generally when I say gear it right it would be with the max performance in the quarter mile in mind there has to be some common goal to compare from. I'm not saying people need/must gear for 1/4 mile but when comparing a 400 hp 318 to a 400 hp 440 both running 3.23 gears obviously the 318 is further away from running optimal gearing than the 440. The 318 would need around 38% more gear to be compromised the same so 4.46 4.30-4.56 would be the choices.

Taking advantage of gearing is or should be done at every instance and even more so for the strip. This is a no brain-er. But you crutches the 318’s ability with gear as a run and hide tactic.

I’m looking forward to the YT build.

 

[273]

How about the same stroke engine then. You covered different strokes. B Engine 3.38 and a 361 bore vs 400 bore.

Your very grey.

Say we're talking 400 hp to compare with it takes a certain amount of fuel and air within a somewhat narrow range be for simplicity sake say it's fixed 550 cfm of air and lets say the engine is 100% ve at peak power. Then engines different displacements is fix to what rpm it would have to turn to displace 550 cfm of air.

So cid x rpm / 3456 = cfm or for our purpose cfm x 3456 / cid = rpm

550 cfm x 3456 / 361 = 5265 rpm so it would 5265 rpm to displace 550 cfm and 4752 rpm for the 400 to do so, Now obviously there's ton's of variables but generally the more efficient the less rpm will be needed and the more inefficient engine will need more rpm. A highly efficient 361 making say 1.45 lbs-ft per cid and a terribly inefficient 400 making 1.1 lbs-ft per cid but both making same peak hp which is probably impossible with those lbs-ft:cid but if so the 361 would spin lower and make more torque than the 400.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Or you can look at it this way. To gear the 318 to do the same job as the 360 would require an overdrive trans.

Not knocking a 318 build at all. Just apples to oranges comparison being made thats all.

Your kidding right?

 

[273]

But you crutches the 318’s ability with gear as a run and hide tactic.

Well how i see and compare it, it's baked into my performance philosophy.

I’m looking forward to the YT build.

Thanks

 

[Rat Bastid]

This is inaccurate. Think about it.
Also what are your parameters to define bigger engine / smaller engine?

No Rob, he’s 100% correct. The more power strokes you make in the same time the quicker and faster the car will be.

When the 632 BBC became the rage, all the guys using them were shifting at something like 6200 and the 572 guys were shifting at 7k. The 632’s were slower.

Today, the 632’s are shifting at 8500 plus.

Im not sure why Chrysler guys are so afraid of RPM. 7k is nothing.

 

[rumblefish360]

No Rob, he’s 100% correct. The more power strokes you make in the same time the quicker and faster the car will be.

Agreed. He crutched a 318’s weaker output with more gear is the way to go- no argument. How he states what he did his a run & hide - smoke and mirror show side stepping the 318’s lack of power and then claiming in a way it’s all a wash with gearing when the topic is power.

Further BS is hiding the fact with more smoke and mirror with chassis issues which are not the starter topic of engine power but just a way to beef up what is not there. It’s illusion.

When the 632 BBC became the rage, all the guys using them were shifting at something like 6200 and the 572 guys were shifting at 7k. The 632’s were slower.

I remember.

Today, the 632’s are shifting at 8500 plus.

Im not sure why Chrysler guys are so afraid of RPM. 7k is nothing.

It’s because they have to drill a block and stop other oiling issues.

In this below;

A highly efficient 361 making say 1.45 lbs-ft per cid and a terribly inefficient 400 making 1.1 lbs-ft per cid but both making same peak hp which is probably impossible with those lbs-ft:cid but if so the 361 would spin lower and make more torque than the 400

This is true to a point but assumes much and leaves many variables out. He is making blanket statements that are a false leading paths.

I made the stroke the same but left the bore sizes at a huge difference on purpose but tightening them up with a 383-400 could yield get more discrepancies and seeming outlandish results.

Verification via a calculator also assumes much as variables in person builds or material and conditions of the quality of parts and machine work abound greatly.

In the above posts, his see- able claim is a 318 can out power a 360 through rpm. If I stop here, it’s a challenge for some to see that possible. But it is through changes of the engine. But he stated 400hp set of engines. And the 318 wins through gearing and rpm.

This is short sighted IMO since the 318 was helped in the conversation but not the 360. Might as well have given the 360 a 2bbl. & exhaust manifolds running 2.76 gears on 33’s.

Sound absurd? He does to me.

I’m not 318 bashing which everyone should know I don’t talk that trash. I have a ‘70 (IIRC) sitting on the side that I want to do what most people call a waste of money and insane. Build the hell out of it.

Hey, it’s only money and my time to waste right?
LMAO