mopowers
Well-Known Member
Has anyone checked one of 440 source's balance jobs lately? Are they truly ready to install out of the box? Or is something that needs to be checked by a competent machine shop?
440 Source Balance Job
- Thread starter mopowers
- Start date
-
Can't say but I will add why would you pay that much for something and not check it?
Come on, man.....NOW you're going to cast doubt to all that "trust" in what we buy?
How am I going to feel comfortable about anything with this thought polluting my brain each time I build something.
I'm not entirely joking though....I am usually the guy that trusts and rarely gets disappointed by doing so but you do raise a good point.
If a shop does check the balance, what would you expect to pay for that? If you're paying full rate, why not let the outside shop just do it and skip the service from the parts supplier?
If you're doing to have someone check another shop's work, how do you know the second place is any better?
This topic has the risk of a slippery slope where one starts to question everything.
Yeah, I know....one shouldn't be cavalier about precision engine builds but now I'm going to dwell on this and I'd rather have a pizza and have some time with the wife instead of obsessing.
How am I going to feel comfortable about anything with this thought polluting my brain each time I build something.
I'm not entirely joking though....I am usually the guy that trusts and rarely gets disappointed by doing so but you do raise a good point.
If a shop does check the balance, what would you expect to pay for that? If you're paying full rate, why not let the outside shop just do it and skip the service from the parts supplier?
If you're doing to have someone check another shop's work, how do you know the second place is any better?
This topic has the risk of a slippery slope where one starts to question everything.
Yeah, I know....one shouldn't be cavalier about precision engine builds but now I'm going to dwell on this and I'd rather have a pizza and have some time with the wife instead of obsessing.
Last edited:
Years ago I bought a 500" kit and had them balance it. It was fine.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Around here, having a shop properly check a balance job costs just as much as having it done to begin with. Since you can't buy a 440source kit unbalanced, it just seems like a waste if you have to have it re-balanced - hence my original question.
Exactly. The cost to properly check the balance would basically be the same as having it balanced to begin with. After having issues with a pre-balanced Scat kit recently, I'm a little nervous about using a balanced 440source assembly out of the box.
Did you have it checked by a machine shop? What all did they do? Or did it seem fine because it ran smooth and without vibration?
It will be better than the factory.
I'd trust Brandon's kits.
I'd trust Brandon's kits.
It will PROBABLY be fine. I guess the important question would be does it come with a balance sheet?
What level of balance is acceptable by their standards?
What level of balance is acceptable by their standards?
I had 440 source balance it when I bought it . Ran smooth
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Great questions. Hoping to hear form someone who's bought from the recently. I'll be giving them a call as well. I haven't seen anything bad posted about them, so maybe that answers the question.
Thank you. How long ago did you buy it?
1WildRT
Well-Known Member
Factory "balance" jobs were virtually no balancing at all... Just grab parts that were at "Spec" and assemble them... Rarely was there ever an issue...
I've heard of guys shooting for .5 grams... There are 28 grams in an ounce, 448 grams in a pound........ What is really required?
As soon as the crank gets up to speed oil begins to get caught in the spinning vortex... How many grams of oil do you suppose & how evenly is it distributed?
The crew at 440 Source works with one engine line, they balance a lot of that same engine, they know what to expect the equipment to say & if it says something else they will likely re-evaluate before blindly doing what the machine says....
I don't see the point of having a shop that probably balances ten Chevies & six Fords to one Mopar altering the balance done by a shop that works on only big block Mopars...
I've heard of guys shooting for .5 grams... There are 28 grams in an ounce, 448 grams in a pound........ What is really required?
As soon as the crank gets up to speed oil begins to get caught in the spinning vortex... How many grams of oil do you suppose & how evenly is it distributed?
The crew at 440 Source works with one engine line, they balance a lot of that same engine, they know what to expect the equipment to say & if it says something else they will likely re-evaluate before blindly doing what the machine says....
I don't see the point of having a shop that probably balances ten Chevies & six Fords to one Mopar altering the balance done by a shop that works on only big block Mopars...
Mallory metal is EXPENSIVE. If yall are paying the same for a balance CHECK as to have it balanced, you're gettin ripped off. I can get a balance CHECK for $175. What's an extra $175 or a little more even to check to make SURE a $3000 plus reciprocating assembly is balanced right? Kinda like having anybody's cylinder heads checked out. I don't see the issue, really. IF I could afford a balanced rotating assembly, I sure wouldn't gripe about having it checked out.
I bought their 512 kit last Fall and it came with a balance sheet.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
The shop I used recently charges $250 for a balance job, so that's not far off from your balance CHECK price. From what the machinist was telling me, modern assemblies don't usually require mallory because pistons are on the lighter side. Of course any mallory used would increase cost.
It takes about the same amount of time to recheck as it would to do an initial balance, so why would the cost differ much?
Awesome, good to know. Thank you. Did you recheck the balance, or install it as-is?
Mallory metal is just stupid high now. Have you check it recently?
I don't know.....I just looked on Summit and it's actually not THAT bad anymore.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Checked what? The price of mallory? I've had no need to. I've heard it's super costly though.
*edit - yeah it's up there, that's for sure: Crankshaft Mallory Metal - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing
PRH
Well-Known Member
440 Source has a fairly new high quality crank balancer…….and I’m sure they balance more BBM cranks than anyone else.
I’d run it.
Balancing at 440 Source
I’d run it.
Balancing at 440 Source
Last edited:
Just ask 440 Source on how good they balance ( did you get a balance sheet with it ?)
Why would you believe another shop that want to make money over 440 source that balances their own assys every day.
I see it here every day .
"I'm better than you and know more than you .
A second opinion shop would bad mouth the first just to get your $$$$$
My 2 cents. Not that it matters.
Why would you believe another shop that want to make money over 440 source that balances their own assys every day.
I see it here every day .
"I'm better than you and know more than you .
A second opinion shop would bad mouth the first just to get your $$$$$
My 2 cents. Not that it matters.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. When the time comes, I'll probably just double check the component weights that are listed on the balance sheet (since it'll come with one) and if everything checks out, I'll run it. That was where the issue came up with a recent balanced Scat kit I ordered. Their balance sheet listed a rod big end weight that was 50g off the actual weight. Apparently, someone put the wrong number on the rod box and they used that wrong number to establish the bobweight. Oops!
Not always. I have one shop In Macon I totally trust as I know the guy well. Although he's a one man show and he's slow, so you best not be in a hurry. lol
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Save your money and have a local shop balance it. New balancer or not, I've seen way too many cranks not c lose to what I call balanced.
The only way to know if they got it right is to pay someone to hang the bob weights and spin it up. It seems everyone claiming their crank was balanced correctly never checked it.
You can just have 440 Source do it and run it. It won't shake. But neither did the OE Chrysler balance, and I don't know anyone who calls that a balanced crank.
One quick example of how far out they can be and not shake.
We had a customers Super Gas roadster on the chassis dyno. It was down on power (he got whiskey throttle in the burnout and bent a bunch of valves and then he jacked up the tune up and knocked the moly out of the rings) but it was smooth. I drove it on the dyno several pulls and it didn't feel like anything but normal.
The engine comes out and we start the process. We didn't build the engine and if I didn't do something it gets done again to verify its correct.
The first thing I came across was the damper end of the crank was externally balanced and the flywheel end was internal. Very unusual but I'd seen a couple of instances where that's what it took.
I start to spin the crank and the crank damn near jumped out of the balancer. I then verified the bob weight card by weighing everything again and doing the math. It was dead on. So I sneak up on the crank speed and at 250 rpm I can get a reading. It's not smooth, not even close but I could see what was going on.
The damper end was 5 grams out and the flywheel end was 85 grams out. That's a WTF is this crap moment. I call the boss over and show him what I had. He said call the customer and get him down here to explain this.
He comes down and I show him. He says I'll be back in an hour. When he gets back he had a taco'd flywheel. It was folded up.
Then he says "I was unloading at the track and I didn't get the ramps right. I caught the flywheel on the lip of the door and it folded up. So I bought this one (the one on the crank at the moment) and I've run it for awhile now".
He had installed an internal balance flywheel on a crank that needed an external balance flywheel. And it didn't shake.
When I got the correct flywheel it was on about 25 grams off, as the last shop made some corrections on the flywheel. It was 5 grams out on both ends when I got it done.
Moral of the story: Just because it ain't shaking doesn't mean its balanced. This of course wasn't the fault of the last guy who touched it. Clearly the car owner was over his skis on things like this. 100% on the owner.
But, had I not checked the balanced job, it would have went back in the car with the wrong flywheel on it and eventually there would have been a failure. Check the balance job or hope its close.
The only way to know if they got it right is to pay someone to hang the bob weights and spin it up. It seems everyone claiming their crank was balanced correctly never checked it.
You can just have 440 Source do it and run it. It won't shake. But neither did the OE Chrysler balance, and I don't know anyone who calls that a balanced crank.
One quick example of how far out they can be and not shake.
We had a customers Super Gas roadster on the chassis dyno. It was down on power (he got whiskey throttle in the burnout and bent a bunch of valves and then he jacked up the tune up and knocked the moly out of the rings) but it was smooth. I drove it on the dyno several pulls and it didn't feel like anything but normal.
The engine comes out and we start the process. We didn't build the engine and if I didn't do something it gets done again to verify its correct.
The first thing I came across was the damper end of the crank was externally balanced and the flywheel end was internal. Very unusual but I'd seen a couple of instances where that's what it took.
I start to spin the crank and the crank damn near jumped out of the balancer. I then verified the bob weight card by weighing everything again and doing the math. It was dead on. So I sneak up on the crank speed and at 250 rpm I can get a reading. It's not smooth, not even close but I could see what was going on.
The damper end was 5 grams out and the flywheel end was 85 grams out. That's a WTF is this crap moment. I call the boss over and show him what I had. He said call the customer and get him down here to explain this.
He comes down and I show him. He says I'll be back in an hour. When he gets back he had a taco'd flywheel. It was folded up.
Then he says "I was unloading at the track and I didn't get the ramps right. I caught the flywheel on the lip of the door and it folded up. So I bought this one (the one on the crank at the moment) and I've run it for awhile now".
He had installed an internal balance flywheel on a crank that needed an external balance flywheel. And it didn't shake.
When I got the correct flywheel it was on about 25 grams off, as the last shop made some corrections on the flywheel. It was 5 grams out on both ends when I got it done.
Moral of the story: Just because it ain't shaking doesn't mean its balanced. This of course wasn't the fault of the last guy who touched it. Clearly the car owner was over his skis on things like this. 100% on the owner.
But, had I not checked the balanced job, it would have went back in the car with the wrong flywheel on it and eventually there would have been a failure. Check the balance job or hope its close.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
don't buy balanced from any of the suppliers. have it balanced at your shop.
Last edited:
Machineman63
Well-Known Member
"Balanced"-
*to play devils advocate and stir the pot*
-everything has a tolerance. to what spec are we balancing too?
Factory balancing has a greater allowance than a good machine shop would.
ISO balancing tolerances range widely ( G.04 , G1. , G 2.5 G 6.3 .......)
*to play devils advocate and stir the pot*
-everything has a tolerance. to what spec are we balancing too?
Factory balancing has a greater allowance than a good machine shop would.
ISO balancing tolerances range widely ( G.04 , G1. , G 2.5 G 6.3 .......)
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
good info on actual balancing..
I got into a similar mess with an already balanced assembly. This was a small block ford that the guy bought already built. He wanted a serpentine belt system, and replaced his 28oz balancer with a 50oz. Like with your deal, it wasn't the original builders fault, but it did have me scratchin' my head for a while.
If you have it checked by a race engine builder he will will charge you for a balance job. Engine builders are rarely happy with someone else's balance job.
-
