550-600HP 4spd suspension help

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440dart123

440dart123

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Columbia Falls Montanya
I did a little looking and couldnt find any threads closest thing i could find was a guy getting rid of the 4speed and going to a auto, I personally will not own a car with a auto i really hate big converter cars so gutless in high gear, unless i was an all out bracket racer rowing a 4speed is a lost artform not many people out there run them anymore exspecially a young 25yr old like me. The car has been family owned since 72 69 340 4spd its a car that doesnt leave the yard without being abused. We are going to be purchaseing a potent stroker its going to be around 550-600HP and 550tq stutter box and linelock.

Is this thing going to be impossible to make hookup without a ton of $? We will run the widest slick we can get in the stock wheel wells. What would be a good starting point for rear suspension for a full interior 69 swinger.
 
Was this the guy switching to an auto
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dclb7ck4b10"]YouTube[/ame]
 
I would use the stock springs clamped together with spring ties and a Pinion Snubber...... 90/10 Shocks upfront. Adjustable shocks in the rear.


or

Caltracs with their mono leafs, Adjustable rear shocks and 90/10's up front.

Option #1 is about $400.00 with all parts

Option #2 is about 1K with all parts.
 
im in the same boat but cant decide what to go with, what about super stock springs?:blob:
 
skep419 said:
Was this the guy switching to an auto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dclb7ck4b10
Click to expand...


No the guy is a member on here and has a tan 70 dart in his sig and he has simular hp as me and doesnt hook but he also has old dot type tires i never had any luck with dots on my turbo 4cyl mopar.

I was thinking cal tracks but really have no idea what iam doing with rear suspension setup and sounds like you gotta have a pretty vast knowledge on what your doing with the caltracs to get the most out of them. Part of the problem is we live 350mi from the nearest track so dont get alot of time to tune on a good prepped track.

We are going to use our 8 3/4 untill we really need a dana theres a certian look to this car that we are trying to keep me and my brother found a pic of it in 72 when my dad bought it back then it was an street brawler had a big square hoodscoop, teardrop wing, big white dodge emblems on the rear quarters. 340 at the bottom of ea fender and e body console pistol grip and aluminum slot wheels. We are trying to keep it oldschool looking with few modern performance enhancements in power and safety
 
440dart123 said:
We are trying to keep it oldschool looking with few modern performance enhancements in power and safety
Click to expand...

I'm gonna give you some advice, and i'm not trying to discourage you or be a hard a$$. But, what you are talking about here is a major upgrade. If you get the 600hp & 550tq your talking about, two things can happen.......

#1) With slicks and decent bite, without a good clutch assy, a blowproof bellhousing, a stout driveshaft, a upgraded rear end and a good suspension.......at the track, you will tear something up.

#2) If you've never been behind that kind of power before, on the street, you risk tearing you up, or worse, someone else.

What i'm trying to say is, that is a serious piece of equipment, and while it's easy for some to throw big numbers around, i just want you to be safe with however your build comes out.
 
Excellent words of wisdom,Rick.Learned the hard way ,once. Never again.
 
OldmanRick said:
I'm gonna give you some advice, and i'm not trying to discourage you or be a hard a$$. But, what you are talking about here is a major upgrade. If you get the 600hp & 550tq your talking about, two things can happen.......

#1) With slicks and decent bite, without a good clutch assy, a blowproof bellhousing, a stout driveshaft, a upgraded rear end and a good suspension.......at the track, you will tear something up.

#2) If you've never been behind that kind of power before, on the street, you risk tearing you up, or worse, someone else.

What i'm trying to say is, that is a serious piece of equipment, and while it's easy for some to throw big numbers around, i just want you to be safe with however your build comes out.
Click to expand...

I have 500+whp car although front wheel drive and drivetrain will soon be going in a 1000lb less car thats full interior, so your saying stick to fwd mopars as they are stronger haha jkjk I understand what you are saying the car is 99% street car we want something redicously over powered but would also like to put it to use on the track. Iam not looking for 9s as my budy has a 9sec procharged car and it is useless on the street but a dip in the 10s would sure be cool i know it would have the power to run 10s but getting everything to work together is the hard part let alone a 4spd car.
 
There,s a reason why guys don,t run 4 speeds with big HP.($$$ and breakage).I used to race my 4 speed car with a 372ci(450hp).I rebuilt the trans,new CenterForce clutch,Lakewood Scattershield,Comp.Eng. slide-A-Link in the rear really helped with launching.I decided to not ruin the car and built my Early-A with auto,410c.i,Dana60 and Caltracs.Your gonna need a built trans,rearend with bigger than 30 spline axels.You,ll break stuff with 600hp in front of stock parts.JMO Good Luck.
 
if you want to run a stick at high torque you should look into a jerico

the guys on moparts swear by them lol

the stock 4speed... ok if you have lots of spares. i had a 340 dart with about 400hp that would eat them about once every 6 months.

p.s. as far as rear axles and stuff Cass is the man.
known as "doctor diff"
doctordiff.com

he's located in polson, montana might even be close to you
he helps people all over the country
 
Unfortunately, if you really have 550-600hp, once you get some sticky tires and a prepped track you WILL break something sooner, rather than later. The Mopar 4 speeds just don't do well with that kind of power. That kind of power can get you in the mid to low 10's in a well setup car.

With that said, I would go with a good bias ply slick, get the front end travel as close to 5+ inches as possible, 90/10 shocks up front, full caltrac setup on the rear, 1 flat preload on the driver side and 2 flats on the passenger side. I'm not sure where you would want to start with the rear shock setting with a 4 speed, but if you call Calvert racing they will point you in the right direction.

Side note, be sure to have a rev limiter to protect the engine from shooting to the moon when something breaks.

Another side note, I'm not sure what you mean by "big converter cars are gutless in high gear". My car with a manual valve body 727 and an 8" converter pulls like a freight train in high gear.:dontknow:
 
:wack:

440dart123 said:
#1 I personally will not own a car with a auto i really hate big converter cars so gutless in high gear, unless i was an all out bracket racer rowing a 4speed is a lost artform not many people out there run them anymore exspecially a young 25yr old like me.
#2 We are going to be purchaseing a potent stroker its going to be around 550-600HP and 550tq stutter box and linelock.

#3 Is this thing going to be impossible to make hookup without a ton of $? #4 We will run the widest slick we can get in the stock wheel wells. #5 What would be a good starting point for rear suspension for a full interior 69 swinger.
Click to expand...

#1 that's because you haven't wised up yet and it'll be a money pit.
#2 this is the begining of the money pit and wont work well with a 4-speed.
#3 no but it you're already worried about money fagedaboutit.
#4 the widest slick should be around 8"x27"
#5 ladder bars with spring sliders on your stock springs and good adjustable
shocks. cost about $500+ or -

this is pretty much the way it will unfold, you will rip the u-joints out which will tear off the tail shaft of your 4-speed. :eek:ops:you'll fix and/or upgrade that broken stuff. next you will rip all or most of the teeth off the ring and pinion.:eek:ops: you will upgrade/fix those broken parts to a pro gear,spool and back brace the 8 3/4 rear. that should hold you for awhile. next the clutch linkage and shift rods will bend and you will fix that. :eek:ops:now that you have the money pit well in hand the 4-speed sincros(my bad)will break and you will have to have the trans slick shifted.:eek:ops: this is if you didn't screw the clutch up already and have to replace it with a high end one. :eek:ops:eek:h by now you have figured out how to hook the hotrod up and then the 8 3/4" blows up again and you go to a dana.:eek:ops:
see where am i headed with this, if not please refer back to. #1:banghead:
 
my friend has a 408 stroker in the 500/500 range with a 4 speed and the car hooks well and the weakest link is the axels he launches at 3600 and all is well .he wanted to inprove his 60ft so he did a 4000 launch twisted the axel off every time with drag radials the stiff side walls dont asorb shook like a slick .a soft wall slick will help with breakage .
 
jimjimjimmy said:
my friend has a 408 stroker in the 500/500 range with a 4 speed and the car hooks well and the weakest link is the axels he launches at 3600 and all is well .he wanted to inprove his 60ft so he did a 4000 launch twisted the axel off every time with drag radials the stiff side walls dont asorb shook like a slick .a soft wall slick will help with breakage .
Click to expand...

What is his car running (ET and MPH)?

Yes, a bias ply slick will absorb the shock of the launch much better, giving you a chance to hook. Drag radials + high powered stick car = inconsistent 60' times....just my 2 cents.
 
jimjimjimmy said:
my friend has a 408 stroker in the 500/500 range with a 4 speed and the car hooks well and the weakest link is the axels he launches at 3600 and all is well .he wanted to inprove his 60ft so he did a 4000 launch twisted the axel off every time with drag radials the stiff side walls dont asorb shook like a slick .a soft wall slick will help with breakage .
Click to expand...


ladder bars?

they take all the give out of the springs, and leave you with twisted axles. then if you put big axles they will twist the axle tubes instead lol.

so best bet:
get a dana set it up right either go old school (ss springs pinion snubber) or go new school (calvert coil over setup)

dont try to bandaid the old school with ladder bars.

also knew a guy with a 4900 pound pickup with a 700hp big block with nitrous fogger etc. he was ripping dana 60's up. they will only take so much abuse, then you have to go bigger.

lighter car they last longer.
 
flyfish said:
What is his car running (ET and MPH)?

Yes, a bias ply slick will absorb the shock of the launch much better, giving you a chance to hook. Drag radials + high powered stick car = inconsistent 60' times....just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
he is running low 12s at about 112 in a 4000 lb 74 satalite
 
bOb shingler said:
#1 that's because you haven't wised up yet and it'll be a money pit.
#2 this is the begining of the money pit and wont work well with a 4-speed.
#3 no but it you're already worried about money fagedaboutit.
#4 the widest slick should be around 8"x27"
#5 ladder bars with spring sliders on your stock springs and good adjustable
shocks. cost about $500+ or -

this is pretty much the way it will unfold, you will rip the u-joints out which will tear off the tail shaft of your 4-speed. :eek:ops:you'll fix and/or upgrade that broken stuff. next you will rip all or most of the teeth off the ring and pinion.:eek:ops: you will upgrade/fix those broken parts to a pro gear,spool and back brace the 8 3/4 rear. that should hold you for awhile. next the clutch linkage and shift rods will bend and you will fix that. :eek:ops:now that you have the money pit well in hand the 4-speed sincros(my bad)will break and you will have to have the trans slick shifted.:eek:ops: this is if you didn't screw the clutch up already and have to replace it with a high end one. :eek:ops:eek:h by now you have figured out how to hook the hotrod up and then the 8 3/4" blows up again and you go to a dana.:eek:ops:
see where i'm headed with this, if not please refer back to. #1:banghead:
Click to expand...


x2 - almost verbatim. You're tossing around poer figures and an air of lots of experience. If you had experience with the higher power figures you'd realize a lot of hwat you have for a plan is going to cause problems if you really get your hands on that kind of power. It's a common issue when someone is familiar with FWD cars and wants to go RWD. RWD can hook, which means it's simimlar to sheering off the input shaft of your transaxle after you've upgraded the axles.
Your shopping list should include a dual disc clutch (because you're street driving it and a heavy pressure plate will be a lousy cruiser), a blowshield, and SFI flywheel, A Jericho 4sp, a new driveshaft, and a Dana 60 as an entry level approach. The suspension and chassis parts will be needed next if you hope to get decent times with it.
 
Sounds like it is going to be mostly a street car with the track so far away. You will never hook that kind of power on the street so your 4 speed will live. Just be careful on the 2-3 shift and don't smack it too hard and you'll be fine. Problems arise when you actually hook the car. In this case it is never going to happen.
 
Mad Dart said:
Sounds like it is going to be mostly a street car with the track so far away. You will never hook that kind of power on the street so your 4 speed will live. Just be careful on the 2-3 shift and don't smack it too hard and you'll be fine. Problems arise when you actually hook the car. In this case it is never going to happen.
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exactly our track is 350+ mi away and most of the raceing around here is from a roll but with turboed and supercharged ls cars and mustangs, Iam not saying you guys are wrong its just this car has always been a 4speed and is going to stay that way its just a long long history of the car and it wouldnt be the same with a auto.

The fwd shoot for some wheel spin as to try and not bog and loose boost seems to me that this would be something to try with this dart with the tallest slick smallest wheel combo i could get to help take some of the shock out and some of the bog off the line from extreme hookup.
 
440dart123 said:
#5 What would be a good starting point for rear suspension for a full interior 69 swinger.
Click to expand...

bOb shingler said:
#5 ladder bars with spring sliders on your stock springs and good adjustable
shocks. cost about $500+ or -
Click to expand...

I like Bob's idea here, especially on a high powered stick car. If you use floating spring mounts, like these,
View attachment 11119.jpg

you isolate the spring from the housing (basically they become car support mainly) and you use the ladder bars, or a four link to adjust the instant center, further forward (down) most likely here, and that will allow you to not hit the tires any harder then is necessary to get a clean launch.
 
not hijacking but will the super stocks hook if you run two of the same spring so it seats level and maybe add a block so level the car up ?
 
OldmanRick said:
I like Bob's idea here, especially on a high powered stick car. If you use floating spring mounts, like these,
View attachment 1714594749

you isolate the spring from the housing (basically they become car support mainly) and you use the ladder bars, or a four link to adjust the instant center, further forward (down) most likely here, and that will allow you to not hit the tires any harder then is necessary to get a clean launch.
Click to expand...

Does the houseing just sit in them brakets and the ladder bars control the twist by the look of it as iam not sure how them work but it looks like the still clamp to the springs and would still twist the springs just as if it was stock or is the houseing able to move? or am i wrong all together lol
 
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