Have you considered pulling the distributor and priming the oiling system until they begin to pump up? That way you don't have to keep cranking and cranking...When I prelube an engine, I'll typically rotate the engine 90* and keep priming for awhile. I don't know if it helps, but the lifters generally are quiet pretty quickly that way.
'68 318 to carbed Magnum 5.2: Check my checklist
- Thread starter cudak888
- Start date
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The right side primes very quickly on cranking. No reason why the left isn't doing the same.
Even if I burn the starter, it's a lot more reliable and easier on me physically, given all the tests I've run.
-Kurt
I threw in 7 of the new Sealed Power lifters and one of the old ones.
New at left on the exhaust valve; old on the intake:
The oil on the lifter at the left has been sitting there since I opened everything up to begin with. The oil at the right is from cranking. NO oil ever came through the rocker on the left during that time period.
I also tried it without the pushrods. The old one was shooting oil out quite feebly in comparison to the lifters on the passenger's side (and in comparison to the passenger's side lifters when they were on the driver's side.
I'm convinced the Sealed Power lifters are either bad, or that the roller-cam LA engines require the oil inlet hole facing forward.
The lifter bores have their oiling holes facing up from the bottom inside this block. Is it the same on a Magnum?
-Kurt
New at left on the exhaust valve; old on the intake:
The oil on the lifter at the left has been sitting there since I opened everything up to begin with. The oil at the right is from cranking. NO oil ever came through the rocker on the left during that time period.
I also tried it without the pushrods. The old one was shooting oil out quite feebly in comparison to the lifters on the passenger's side (and in comparison to the passenger's side lifters when they were on the driver's side.
I'm convinced the Sealed Power lifters are either bad, or that the roller-cam LA engines require the oil inlet hole facing forward.
The lifter bores have their oiling holes facing up from the bottom inside this block. Is it the same on a Magnum?
-Kurt
I think I'd try posting that specific question in a separate thread. I'm following this build because it's interesting, but I have zero SBM knowledge other than basic stuff, and it might be that you might pick up a few people who know about this specific problem if the title of the thread lured them in. 
I think I'd try posting that specific question in a separate thread. I'm following this build because it's interesting, but I have zero SBM knowledge other than basic stuff, and it might be that you might pick up a few people who know about this specific problem if the title of the thread lured them in.
Just did: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1971044980&posted=1#post1971044980
And for those curious, here's the video. Forward to 0:53 if you want to see the oiling.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wALp_S2rhsc"]YouTube[/ame]
In the video, the new Mellings are on cylinders #6 and #8; the "good" lifters from the passenger's side are distributed in the front of the engine on #2, #4, #1, and #3; and the problematic lifters from the drivers' side are mounted in the #5 and #7 spot.
The video has not been edited - might be a bit confusing. This is what you're watching:
- I show the difference between the Melling straight-up oiling hole, and the 90 degree hole on the engine's existing good lifters.
- Next, I run the priming rod on the drill. Watch as the front banks (2, 4, 1, 3) oil perfectly with the old good lifters from the passenger's side, the Mellings (6 and 8) barely dribble, and the old "bad" lifters (e.g. driver's side, now only on #5 and #7) leak down almost immediately after pumping up.
- Since the camshaft isn't turning, I rotate the Melling lifter 90 degrees to mimic the other lifters. Doesn't work.
-Kurt
P.S.: I was hoping that I'd be able to clean up my workshop after the engine was done.
"JUST KIDDING!"
This is what happens when your car hobby money has to come from selling stuff on eBay. It's an explosion of project car parts - in boxes - alongside stuff that doesn't sell on eBay - in boxes - and random crap you don't know where to put - in boxes - plus projects you never had time to organize and threw - in boxes - topped with everything else you forgot to put...in boxes.
Heck, that engine lift strap is still hanging on my bike stand, and I didn't even notice that until this minute. Maybe I have to take more photos of my junk heap to figure out what to do with it.
That also reminds me - the fire-damaged LED light panel should come back in the house now, if it doesn't smell like bad barbecue still.
-Kurt
"JUST KIDDING!"
This is what happens when your car hobby money has to come from selling stuff on eBay. It's an explosion of project car parts - in boxes - alongside stuff that doesn't sell on eBay - in boxes - and random crap you don't know where to put - in boxes - plus projects you never had time to organize and threw - in boxes - topped with everything else you forgot to put...in boxes.
Heck, that engine lift strap is still hanging on my bike stand, and I didn't even notice that until this minute. Maybe I have to take more photos of my junk heap to figure out what to do with it.
That also reminds me - the fire-damaged LED light panel should come back in the house now, if it doesn't smell like bad barbecue still.
-Kurt
ralphie361
Well-Known Member
Quick question, are you buying lifters for a 92 up engine, or your 89? I think they are different, you'll need 92 up lifters for the swap to get it to oil right. Also this may affect pushrod length. Just a couple things to check before pulling it down too deep.
Strange, as I've already confirmed (with RockAuto, Advance Auto, AutoZone, and Pep Boys) that the same exact lifters are spec'ed for both a 1989 Dodge B350 van and a 2002 Dodge Dakota.
Of course, this may be wrong, but I see no difference between the new ones that won't work and the ones that do. Other than the oiling hole location being 90 degrees off (which doesn't seem to affect it when I did that test in the video), the lifters appear identical in length, design, and where they're chamfered so that oil pools around them from the delivery port in the bore.
The pushrods have definitely been changed though - even though the '89 had a roller cam, spider, and the correct lifters, it still had LA heads and rockers originally - thus, shorter pushrods. It has a set of new Edelbrock 9638 pushrods (Mag 5.2/5.9 spec).
Incidentally - have any tips for getting oil off the exhaust manifolds - and block? Made quite a mess when it was hooked up with the pushrods. My next problem once this thing is running is how to keep it from catching on fire...
-Kurt
ralphie361
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the la roller engines still oiled the rockers through the rocker shaft, I thought that when changing to mag heads that the original lifters didn't have the oil supply hole for the pushrods. The aftermarket may have combined the two part numbers.
The whole reason I decided to go with Magnum heads was when I discovered that the engine had oil-through lifters and hollow pushrods installed in it when I got it, even though the heads had the traditional solid rocker shaft oiling as well.
A bit of Googling brought up some discussion threads noting that the factory LA roller cam engines were spec'ed with oil-through lifters and pushrods (shorter for LA purposes, and serving no real purpose other than to lubricate the bottom of the rocker pivot) from factory, more or less foreshadowing the Magnum oiling system to come.
From what I've read, the roller-cam LA's are pretty much the same block as any Magnum if you strip the heads off of them and discount the long-snout camshaft in the LA's. Even the rear main cap accepted a Magnum rear seal, as I've heard that there are different crank tolerances between the LA's and Magnums.
Not much known about these motors, but a hidden gem if you can find a good one in a sea of trashed Magnums.
-Kurt
ralphie361
Well-Known Member
That's pretty cool, I didn't know that much about that era engine. I'm wondering if putting a matched set of 16 lifters in would help the oiling trouble you're having. Differently sized oil holes maybe? If it gushes oil in one place, it may not build pressure in others. I'm kind of grasping at stuff here, but I think if it were mine I would try all 16 lifters soaked in oil, install pushrods and rockers, and prime and see what happens.
There's very little organized information about the roller cam LA's online. Diplomat and Ramcharger fans seem to know the most about them, since they're the two most collectible Mopar vehicles that often have the roller LA's in them.
I doubt if a matched set would help, but Sireland67 just offered me the cleaned and tested lifters out of one of his blocks, and I took him up on it.
It'll be good to get away from this thing until next Sunday ;)
-Kurt
Sirland67 busted his butt getting a set of 16 lifters to me. You are the best!
That said, I put them in and spun the priming tool with my 1200 RPM drill. Unlike the lifters that were shooting 2" streams of oil, these lifters are pretty much just dribbling when primed. However, they seemed to pump up, so I put all the pushrods in to "see what I could see."
After about 30 seconds of continuous priming, I get a slow dribble of oil coming through the pushrod onto the rocker, but very little. I shot some really terrible iPhone footage of this, which I've attached below:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-fBni3eB8"]Lifters - YouTube[/ame]
And at the rocker:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqDYV1uRYSU"](FABO) Rocker oiling from pushrods - YouTube[/ame]
I have some good GoPro shots, but need to upload them, and I'm in the midst of trying to build three FreeNAS server boxes for all the stuff I have around here, so the better footage will have to wait.
These are not the results I was getting from the "good" 8 lifters that were in the engine, which pretty much pissed oil from the pushrod hole like there was no tomorrow.
That said, have I had this wrong all along? Is this the way it's supposed to look when primed at this speed?
One other issue: Of the 16 lifters, 14 pump up so that the rocker is firm against the pedestal. One allows for a bit of wiggle room. The other is just as bad as the lifters that weren't pumping up to begin with - you can press it down even when spinning the priming shaft.
Thoughts? Opinions? I'm all ears.
-Kurt
That said, I put them in and spun the priming tool with my 1200 RPM drill. Unlike the lifters that were shooting 2" streams of oil, these lifters are pretty much just dribbling when primed. However, they seemed to pump up, so I put all the pushrods in to "see what I could see."
After about 30 seconds of continuous priming, I get a slow dribble of oil coming through the pushrod onto the rocker, but very little. I shot some really terrible iPhone footage of this, which I've attached below:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-fBni3eB8"]Lifters - YouTube[/ame]
And at the rocker:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqDYV1uRYSU"](FABO) Rocker oiling from pushrods - YouTube[/ame]
I have some good GoPro shots, but need to upload them, and I'm in the midst of trying to build three FreeNAS server boxes for all the stuff I have around here, so the better footage will have to wait.
These are not the results I was getting from the "good" 8 lifters that were in the engine, which pretty much pissed oil from the pushrod hole like there was no tomorrow.
That said, have I had this wrong all along? Is this the way it's supposed to look when primed at this speed?
One other issue: Of the 16 lifters, 14 pump up so that the rocker is firm against the pedestal. One allows for a bit of wiggle room. The other is just as bad as the lifters that weren't pumping up to begin with - you can press it down even when spinning the priming shaft.
Thoughts? Opinions? I'm all ears.
-Kurt
Returned the one offending new lifter, and got a replacement. Pumped up all the lifters, installed the pushrods/rockers, and checked the hydraulic pressure against each rocker - no give on any of them.
After installing the valvettrain, I pressurized the system again to check for oil at all rockers. Results A-OK.
Here's where I am at the end of today. Decided not to rush it and to get a new pair of intake gaskets tomorrow. These are completely oil soaked.
-Kurt
After installing the valvettrain, I pressurized the system again to check for oil at all rockers. Results A-OK.
Here's where I am at the end of today. Decided not to rush it and to get a new pair of intake gaskets tomorrow. These are completely oil soaked.
-Kurt
SUCCESS! One running LA 360 turned Magnum!
Only problem I'm having is copious smoke from the right-side exhaust manifold, which was doused in oil more than once by the original LA roller lifters. I wiped it down top and bottom, but it still smokes to a rather alarming extent.
-Kurt
Only problem I'm having is copious smoke from the right-side exhaust manifold, which was doused in oil more than once by the original LA roller lifters. I wiped it down top and bottom, but it still smokes to a rather alarming extent.
-Kurt
Even though this project is pretty much done, I just thought I'd chime in with this. Nothing like slapping the air cleaner on top of an engine to finish off the end of a build (and I've still got to take it all apart again to repaint the bolts and anywhere else where it got dirty, change the plug wires, and get a breather on it. Never ends!):
I'm guaranteed that the engine will never live up to that 340 tin on the top, but it sure looks right. As right as a 340 unsilenced air cleaner could ever look atop a fantasy take on what a '68 small block police motor would have looked like.
Best part: I can't see the freakin' boy-racer Edelbrock sticker anymore.
-Kurt
I'm guaranteed that the engine will never live up to that 340 tin on the top, but it sure looks right. As right as a 340 unsilenced air cleaner could ever look atop a fantasy take on what a '68 small block police motor would have looked like.
Best part: I can't see the freakin' boy-racer Edelbrock sticker anymore.
-Kurt
Noxnabaker
Member
Howdy!
I came across this thread while googeling 'bout different hydraulic roller lifters/side of the engine...
They're original like that it seems, I've got 2 -89 318 & they're exactly the same as you described & showed earlier in this thread, so I'm gonna start a new thread to find an answer...
Stay cool!
/Nox.
I came across this thread while googeling 'bout different hydraulic roller lifters/side of the engine...
They're original like that it seems, I've got 2 -89 318 & they're exactly the same as you described & showed earlier in this thread, so I'm gonna start a new thread to find an answer...
Stay cool!
/Nox.
Hmm. Are the engines date coded near each other? Could have still been a production line oddity.
Either way, it's wise to change over to the Magnum style. Less likely to bleed down in operation.
-Kurt
Noxnabaker
Member
Yep I realize that, but I still wonder if strong or soft springed lifters are best... what do you think?
I would think stronger for less play in higher revs, but what do I know...? The little spring that holds the plate or ball seems to be the same thou.
I would think stronger for less play in higher revs, but what do I know...? The little spring that holds the plate or ball seems to be the same thou.
This is ancient, but I'm bumping my old build thread up here to add one caveat for those considering the roller-cam, TBI LA plan such as myself. This is something I did not realize until now, and that engine has been in the car for about 2 years already, and if you're building your motor with factory EFI in mind later on down the road, it may make a difference:
The TBI motors do not use a crank position sensor, so - unlike a purpose-built Magnum block, there are NO factory provisions on the back of the block for mounting a factory crank position sensor. This may be irrelevant for anyone planning to adapt their own tonewheel on the front of the crank, but for someone looking to get away with a stock setup, it's a deal-breaker.
It's something to keep in mind if you're considering a roller-cam LA like I did, but have future ideas of using EFI. If you do, stick with a Magnum-era block.
-Kurt
The TBI motors do not use a crank position sensor, so - unlike a purpose-built Magnum block, there are NO factory provisions on the back of the block for mounting a factory crank position sensor. This may be irrelevant for anyone planning to adapt their own tonewheel on the front of the crank, but for someone looking to get away with a stock setup, it's a deal-breaker.
It's something to keep in mind if you're considering a roller-cam LA like I did, but have future ideas of using EFI. If you do, stick with a Magnum-era block.
-Kurt
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