906 or 452 which is best overall

-
tarvin890 said:
whats wrong with 346 heads?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with the 346 head. In fact Richard Petty once remarked that the 346 head was the one he preferred when he had to run the wedge engines. The 346 port shape is more like the 902 and the 452. Where the 915 and the 906 are similar to each other and much different than the other three.
 
I hesitated when asking this question. It seems whenever an opinion is wanted it turns into a war of words.As far as experience goes I have been building engines since the late 60's, both import and domestics. With that said, even I don't know 1/2 of what I would like to know and there is room for improvement for all of us. Remember opinions are like buttholes... everyone has one! And no opinion is wrong they only differ from others.
 
Thanks Karl. I have the same sentiments about you. I only wish several of us were a lot closer together. We would have a good time.

krazykuda said:
Pretty bold statement to make when you don't know anything about us.

Him and I can school you in Mopar, we've been doing it much longer than you, and combined, we have more experience than you most likely will live...

Do you have any tech "articles" in the How-to section yet???

Count how many him and I have and see if you can match us. And I have a few more coming in the future....

How come you don't have as many "thanked" as he and I do??? That's a good indicator of how many people that you've helped on this forum...


He's one of the few people that I would TRUST to work on MY car...

Rusty is a great guy, and in fact traveled almost one hour to help me load up a car that I picked up from another member near him and towed home. Without his help I would have had much more trouble getting it started and loaded on my trailer.

He helped me and used his truck to take me to the parts store and get parts and load the car. He did this all on his own and didn't ask for anything in return. He's the kind of guy that I like to keep around me and call a friend, it's hard to find good people like that today, he's there when you need him... :prayer:

And as his friend, I don't appreciate you trashing and insulting him when he hasn't provoked you. :ncool:


As I stated in my previous post here, the purpose of this site is to help others, not bad mouth and sling insults at people that are trying to help. Stay on point, only post information relevant to the thread, or keep it to yourself and move on...

Good day... :D
Click to expand...
 
OUTLAW said:
I hesitated when asking this question. It seems whenever an opinion is wanted it turns into a war of words.As far as experience goes I have been building engines since the late 60's, both import and domestics. With that said, even I don't know 1/2 of what I would like to know and there is room for improvement for all of us. Remember opinions are like buttholes... everyone has one! And no opinion is wrong they only differ from others.
Click to expand...

My apologies. Mine was not the intention to start a war. I just answered the question and the horse hockey flew. Again, my apologies.
 
my 346s have the the plugs in the ends...or do i need to go look at them again...im pretty sure they do
 
IQ52 said:
Nothing wrong with the 346 head. In fact Richard Petty once remarked that the 346 head was the one he preferred when he had to run the wedge engines. The 346 port shape is more like the 902 and the 452. Where the 915 and the 906 are similar to each other and much different than the other three.
Click to expand...

thanks for chimming in...its an under-rated head... like mine just fine.
 
I have 440 source's Stealth heads, I say ditch the iron heads and go aluminum.. paint them orange/blue and nobody will know the difference.. for what you're going to have into the iron's I'd go aluminum..
 
zac_F71 said:
I have 440 source's Stealth heads, I say ditch the iron heads and go aluminum.. paint them orange/blue and nobody will know the difference.. for what you're going to have into the iron's I'd go aluminum..
Click to expand...

aluminum=power also =$$$$$$$$$$$
 
I actually prefer the 346s, with 452s a close 2nd. I've never gotten the numbers Jim does but that means little to me (or him I'm sure...lol). The 906s are the standby but to be hoest the castings are hard to find two really good non-shifted examples. There are those that like the 906 "F" castings but the few I've seen looked no different and I'm sure they modify the crap out of them.
 
Hello everybody,
Great information on the comparison of these different casting number heads. My brother and I bought a 1978 440 out of a Chrysler new Yorker. We haven't disassembled it yet but I'm assuming it has the 452 heads. What I'm trying to find out is how many CC's the combustion chambers are? I have checked multiple websites and seen I think 4 different numbers, 81.5 , 88, 90 and 92. We don't have the tools to measure them. Does anyone know how many CC's the 452 combustion chambers are? And if they are all the same? Also, the engine is supposedly low miles so my plan was to check the valve stems for carbon buildup to see how tight the guides are. If they still look pretty good we were going to do a mild port and polish, hand lap the valve seats and install the new springs. Aren't the 452 heads better for the unleaded fuel because of the hardened seats? What's the largest valves the 452 or 906 heads will accept? And would it be cost effective to buy the largest stainless steel valves, have a 3 angle job done and mill them to achieve the desired 11/1 compression ratio?

We are planning on building a street/strip Dart (hopefully mid to high 11's or better) I really want to build a hydraulic roller, 11/1 with EZ-1 Indy cylinder heads but I'm not sure our budget is going to allow it. So I'm trying to come up with a plan B.

Thanks in advance for any information! I hope that everyone has a great day!
 
Man-on-wheels said:
Hello everybody,
Great information on the comparison of these different casting number heads. My brother and I bought a 1978 440 out of a Chrysler new Yorker. We haven't disassembled it yet but I'm assuming it has the 452 heads. What I'm trying to find out is how many CC's the combustion chambers are? I have checked multiple websites and seen I think 4 different numbers, 81.5 , 88, 90 and 92. We don't have the tools to measure them. Does anyone know how many CC's the 452 combustion chambers are? And if they are all the same? Also, the engine is supposedly low miles so my plan was to check the valve stems for carbon buildup to see how tight the guides are. If they still look pretty good we were going to do a mild port and polish, hand lap the valve seats and install the new springs. Aren't the 452 heads better for the unleaded fuel because of the hardened seats? What's the largest valves the 452 or 906 heads will accept? And would it be cost effective to buy the largest stainless steel valves, have a 3 angle job done and mill them to achieve the desired 11/1 compression ratio?

We are planning on building a street/strip Dart (hopefully mid to high 11's or better) I really want to build a hydraulic roller, 11/1 with EZ-1 Indy cylinder heads but I'm not sure our budget is going to allow it. So I'm trying to come up with a plan B.

Thanks in advance for any information! I hope that everyone has a great day!
Click to expand...

I'm going to answer some of the questions because it will just be fun to do it.

But, I think we better begin to contemplate a plan "C".

906 and 452 heads will be around 90cc and vary, in the same head, as much as 3cc.

The 906 head will produce the most power in the long run but the 452 is the easiest to get to the moderate flow levels.

The biggest valves in a 906 or 452? I have successfully run 2.25/1.81. But the port work to make them flow was way excessive.

If you plan on running the stock bottom end and mill the heads to achieve 11:1 compression you will have to go to about a 40cc combustion chamber and mill the heads around .250"-.300". At which time you will be removing a portion of the intake valve seat.

The good news is, engine wise, to get into the high 11's with a 440 in a Dart, you can probably do it with 8.5:1 compression, properly prepped Stealth heads, an Edelbrock RPM Performer intake, 850cfm 4 bbl and a 240-245 degree @ .050" hydraulic flat tappet cam. Done right, that's a 450 HP engine and you are under 12 seconds.

Dyno testing a stock(?) 1972 440
 
Thank you for the advice IQ52! I made a mistake on what I said though, I actually have two complete separate builds planned. The first being a mid to high 11's which would consist of a .030 bored block with the stock steel crank and rods, forged flattop pistons, cut the deck and/or mill the heads to achieve a 9.5-10/1 CR with the 452 heads mildly ported and polished, this hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-k21-225-4 we have an edelbrock torker intake manifold and a Holley 800 DP and a 3000 stall converter.

And the second build (which probably won't happen because of our budget) being the same block, the same steel crank, eagle rods, the same pistons with the 75 CC EZ-1 Indy heads with the deck cut to achieve the 11/1 CR, this camshaft, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-20230713k an M1 intake manifold and a 950 CFM Holley ultra XP carburetor.

I forgot to mention that with either build we plan on installing ARP main studs, ARP head studs and ARP rod bolts. Because if we build the iron head hydraulic flat tappet engine then it's getting a nitrous kit that's adjustable from 100 HP up to 250 HP.

Chances are we'll be building the first combination so I'm hoping to be able to cut the deck or mill the heads enough to achieve a 9.5 or 10/1 CR with a flattop piston. We were going to just buy a rebuild kit that has domed pistons that make the CR 10.34/1 with the 452 heads but I've read that it's much better to use a flattop piston if possible because of the flame travel in the combustion chamber.

Thank you so much again for your advice and information! I enjoy reading and getting other people's suggestions and advice because there's always something to learn!

I hope that you have a great day! :)
 
You're pretty close to what you want. With an 85cc head, zero deck, .039 gasket and a 6cc valve relief in the pistons you are right at 10:1. With a 90 cc combustion chamber you are 9.5:1. It's not all that expensive to get a piece of clear plastic to cover the combustion chamber, drill a hole in it to fill with fluid and buy a 100cc burette so that you can measure and balance your own heads.

I never suggest using iron heads unless you just have to from some personal reason and can do all your own work on them, or the rules require you to run an iron head. Too many other good cost effective options with the aluminum aftermarket heads available now.
 
IQ52 said:
You're pretty close to what you want. With an 85cc head, zero deck, .039 gasket and a 6cc valve relief in the pistons you are right at 10:1. With a 90 cc combustion chamber you are 9.5:1. It's not all that expensive to get a piece of clear plastic to cover the combustion chamber, drill a hole in it to fill with fluid and buy a 100cc burette so that you can measure and balance your own heads.

I never suggest using iron heads unless you just have to from some personal reason and can do all your own work on them, or the rules require you to run an iron head. Too many other good cost effective options with the aluminum aftermarket heads available now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is right where I want it to be for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft. Which like I said, is probably the route we will go.

I would really love to get a set of those Indy EZ-1 CNC ported cylinder heads that have 275 cc intake runners and the combustion chambers are 75 cc which with 0.025 deck clearance and a 0.039 thickness compressed head gasket would be 11.08:1 CR. I think that with the 560/565 lift 243/251 duration @.050 (or a little bigger) hydraulic roller camshaft, the M1 intake manifold and the 950 CFM Holley ultra XP carburetor would be a pretty nice combination.


Do you know how many CC's the intake runners in the BB cast iron heads are? I've seen that some of the edelbrock heads are around 210 CC's. But then the "big easy" heads from Indy have 325 CC intake runners. What a difference! So I'm just curious what the stock heads are.

Thanks again!
 
krazykuda said:
Pretty bold statement to make when you don't know anything about us.

Him and I can school you in Mopar, we've been doing it much longer than you, and combined, we have more experience than you most likely will live...

Do you have any tech "articles" in the How-to section yet???

Count how many him and I have and see if you can match us. And I have a few more coming in the future....

How come you don't have as many "thanked" as he and I do??? That's a good indicator of how many people that you've helped on this forum...


He's one of the few people that I would TRUST to work on MY car...

Rusty is a great guy, and in fact traveled almost one hour to help me load up a car that I picked up from another member near him and towed home. Without his help I would have had much more trouble getting it started and loaded on my trailer.

He helped me and used his truck to take me to the parts store and get parts and load the car. He did this all on his own and didn't ask for anything in return. He's the kind of guy that I like to keep around me and call a friend, it's hard to find good people like that today, he's there when you need him... :prayer:

And as his friend, I don't appreciate you trashing and insulting him when he hasn't provoked you. :ncool:


As I stated in my previous post here, the purpose of this site is to help others, not bad mouth and sling insults at people that are trying to help. Stay on point, only post information relevant to the thread, or keep it to yourself and move on...

Good day... :D
Click to expand...
I hope I never have to read such a self obsorbed post like this ever again. How many thanks you have doesn't mean ****, and besides that...if you look at your very own thanks to post count ratio, it sucks, its irrelevant. Half the time I read a good post...I'm not even logged in and often forget to login and hit the like, and I can't tell you how many times I see people get thanked meanwhile the exact info or even better was posted 4 posts earlier, its elbow rub most of the time...and imagine this, people still learn no matter their age and or subject, you just don't know it all.
It is good to back up good people, but you done it wrong in this post.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I hope I never have to read such a self obsorbed post like this ever again. How many thanks you have doesn't mean ****, and besides that...if you look at your very own thanks to post count ratio, it sucks, its irrelevant. Half the time I read a good post...I'm not even logged in and often forget to login and hit the like, and I can't tell you how many times I see people get thanked meanwhile the exact info or even better was posted 4 posts earlier, its elbow rub most of the time...and imagine this, people still learn no matter their age and or subject, you just don't know it all.
It is good to back up good people, but you done it wrong in this post.
Click to expand...

You're going to drag this up again???

Let it go...

If you don't have any input on the thread subject, keep moving along... Have a little respect for the original poster...
 
Alright then, back to the thread..........
There are so many ways you can set up these 452 or 906 heads one could get dizzy trying to keep track. Different porting methods and valve sizes cause the flow levels to overlap. One time the 452 will surpass the 906 and other times the 906 is the better. Here are a few examples of the flow differences between the heads and between different treatments in the same heads. These are from our records on our flowbench. We haven't done an all-out 452 or 906 in many years. Sometimes it will take weeks of work to do a set of iron heads. It's just best to get a set of new aluminum heads unless iron is required by the rules.

Oh yeah.......no epoxy or welding was done.

452........
Lift........stock IN/EX....2.14/1.81...bigger/1.81
.100.........61/55..........68/60..........85/59
.200.......130/108......142/130......164/124
.300.......188/152......205/187......220/109
.400.......213/172......248/218......257/224
.500.......222/178......286/234......294/245
.600.......230/181......292/245......309/261
.700.........NA/NA........295/253......318/274

906.........
Lift.....Stock IN/EX
.100.......65/57.......89/60.......80/61.......71/.......91/.......89/60
.200.....137/103...168/124...161/126...150/.....165/.....161/129
.300.....187/145...218/170...219/175...209/.....219/.....212/185
.400.....216/168...249/200...262/201...257/.....272/.....257/216
.500.....224/176...260/217...280/215...292/.....299/.....297/234
.600.....232/183...258/228...297/221...313/.....325/.....331/253
.700.......NA/NA.....258/236...297/224...321/.....335/.....347/264
 
IQ52 said:
The good news is, engine wise, to get into the high 11's with a 440 in a Dart, you can probably do it with 8.5:1 compression, properly prepped Stealth heads, an Edelbrock RPM Performer intake, 850cfm 4 bbl and a 240-245 degree @ .050" hydraulic flat tappet cam. Done right, that's a 450 HP engine and you are under 12 seconds.
Click to expand...

That literally is almost identical to my engine combo. and 11.74@114.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top