A833 + clutch question : 68 318 engine

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yotah1

yotah1

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Hi guys

I've been going through internet and get all the information and its complete opposite...

My car is a 1968 Barracuda with a 318 and an A904 auto trans. I want to swap for a A833 manual trans and as I'm getting the crankshaft balanced, they need the clutch assembly, which I don't have yet.
As I've been looking into clutches, I saw that there various diameters, brands (obviously), numbers of discs, etc.

My use for the car will be a weekend driver, and my setup will run approx 320/350hp and similar torque I guess. My current driveshaft is fitted with a yoke (I think that's what it's called) at the connection to the gearbox which has 25 splines if I remember correctly. Correct me if anything doesn't make sense to you btw.

As I want to swap to a A833 gearbox, which clutch should I be looking at? Do you have any feedback on some brands, bad or good? Do you know if the crankshaft I have can be fitted with a manual transmission and clutch (I think there is something to do with the throwout bearing being a different diameter?)?

Well here are my questions, any help greatly appreciated as I'm trying to figure out that mess...
 
Some info from mymopar.com/ .......

[ame]http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/DC_ClutchTrans_Race_Bulletin.pdf[/ame]
 
Why would they need the clutch? When I had my 340's rotating assembly balanced (external balance, not internal like your 318 ), they needed the harmonic balancer, crankshaft, flywheel, pistons, wrist pins, rings, rods, and bearings. No clutch.

First step is to get the flywheel. 318's use a neutral balance 130 tooth flywheel. This is what I use on my 340 but it would work on a 318 too, you just have to remove the bolt-on weight: http://store.440source.com/1045-Billet-Steel-Flywheel-New/productinfo/113-1014/ Zoom makes a flywheel that will work and it's about $80, but it's more of a stock replacement. I'd rather not have my foot chopped off if it failed, hence the 440Source billet steel flywheel. While I had my cheap Zoom flywheel behind my 318, it was fine. I just wouldn't trust it in a "performance" application. Your choice though: Cheap or Good. Pick one and drive accordingly.

As for the clutch, at your HP level, I'd consider a McLeod Street Pro clutch kit. They're affordable and I have had good luck with them. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-75109/overview/make/dodge You'll need a 23 spline, 10.5" clutch. Unless you have an 18 spline transmission, which is unlikely. Double check though just to be sure. My McLeod held my 318's power just fine.

Your crankshaft might not be drilled for a pilot bushing, my '68 318 wasn't, so you might need a needle bearing instead. Off the top of my head I think the National part number is #FC-69907. It's like $15 at O'Reilly's and will save you a lot of headaches.

Hope this helped. Good luck and enjoy that third pedal!
 
Thanks a lot guys for the info. Not sure why they wanted the clutch as for me it doesn't impact the balancing, but whatever...

I'll look into all that tonight and make a list that i'll post here just before I purchase anything.

Yeah left foot pedal, a must have!! I'm getting too much used to my auto in the F150...
 
the bellhousing is another factor, some early 273 units only fit the small flywheel and 9.5" clutch-avoid it. some shops like to balance with the pressure plate-just in case she is out a little-but not necessary. the a833 takes a 30 spline/727 output yoke-and there are 2-small 7260 or large 7290 U joint. some a833 overdrive units have the smaller 904 spline yoke. there are 3 different rear hole sizes on bellhousings-4.3" , 4.8" , 5.1" and 3 corresponding transmission bolt on front bearing retainer outside diameter sizes.
 
I believe the pressure plate is balanced. I know a bad pressure plate causes a hell of a vibration at Idle and driving. Been there,done that. My engine combo was 318/340 it vibrated with both engines until I replaced the pressure plate.
 
BlueDream said:
Why would they need the clutch? When I had my 340's rotating assembly balanced (external balance, not internal like your 318 ), they needed the harmonic balancer, crankshaft, flywheel, pistons, wrist pins, rings, rods, and bearings. No clutch.

First step is to get the flywheel. 318's use a neutral balance 130 tooth flywheel. This is what I use on my 340 but it would work on a 318 too, you just have to remove the bolt-on weight: http://store.440source.com/1045-Billet-Steel-Flywheel-New/productinfo/113-1014/ Zoom makes a flywheel that will work and it's about $80, but it's more of a stock replacement. I'd rather not have my foot chopped off if it failed, hence the 440Source billet steel flywheel. While I had my cheap Zoom flywheel behind my 318, it was fine. I just wouldn't trust it in a "performance" application. Your choice though: Cheap or Good. Pick one and drive accordingly

As for the clutch, at your HP level, I'd consider a McLeod Street Pro clutch kit. They're affordable and I have had good luck with them. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-75109/overview/make/dodge You'll need a 23 spline, 10.5" clutch. Unless you have an 18 spline transmission, which is unlikely. Double check though just to be sure. My McLeod held my 318's power just fine.

Your crankshaft might not be drilled for a pilot bushing, my '68 318 wasn't, so you might need a needle bearing instead. Off the top of my head I think the National part number is #FC-69907. It's like $15 at O'Reilly's and will save you a lot of headaches.




Hope this helped. Good luck and enjoy that third pedal!
Click to expand...

If you paid to have your rotating assembly balanced and they did NOT balance your pressure plate you got screwed, blu d and tattooed. If it rotates, in most cases it must be balanced. On race deals I even balance the disc. For a street car I skip the disc to save some bucks unless the customer is willing to pay.

But you had better balance the pressure plate. The good ones are 40-45 grams out and they get worse from there. With the exception being some of the billet CNC covers and pressure plates. They are close, but still must be checked.
 
yellow rose said:
If you paid to have your rotating assembly balanced and they did NOT balance your pressure plate you got screwed, blu d and tattooed. If it rotates, in most cases it must be balanced. On race deals I even balance the disc. For a street car I skip the disc to save some bucks unless the customer is willing to pay.

But you had better balance the pressure plate. The good ones are 40-45 grams out and they get worse from there. With the exception being some of the billet CNC covers and pressure plates. They are close, but still must be checked.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting the rotating assembly be balanced every time a p/plate is changed??

If they are out over 40 grams, and you replace that p/plate with one 40 gr - 180* opposite, you'd then have it 90+ gr out of balance , would it not?, rather than a random small imbalance?

inquiring minds want to know.. lol

cheers.
 
inertia said:
Are you suggesting the rotating assembly be balanced every time a p/plate is changed??

If they are out over 40 grams, and you replace that p/plate with one 40 gr - 180* opposite, you'd then have it 90+ gr out of balance , would it not?, rather than a random small imbalance?

inquiring minds want to know.. lol

cheers.
Click to expand...

You are correct. That's why changing pressure plates and not fixing balance issues is bad. You just need the flywheel and pressure plate. You measure how far out of balance what you have is (that is piss poor English right there) with the original pressure plate. Then you mark the flywheel position on the mandrel and mount the new pressure plate and test it. You make it the same out of balance as the original was. Then you can bolt it back on.

The will run out of balance by a bunch and may not hurt anything. Had a customer with a BBC in a roadster. Apparently, backing it out of the trailer, he snagged the flywheel (power glide car) and bent the crap out of it. He walks through the pits and borrows one from some dude. Neither one bother to think if they have internal or external balanced cranks. My customer bolts it on and goes. He finished the rest of the season. He probably put another 50-60 runs on it. It came in for a freshen up and some up dates. I thought damn, WTF? Why in the *+#^|&#8364;<£¥%#&#8364;ing world did I externally balance the front of the crank, and internally balance the rear???? Was I on the crack pipe? This makes no sense. WTF was I thinking? Oh well, it is what it is. I should have pulled his original paperwork.

I get the thing on the balancer and it is shaking like a dog pooping peach seeds. I can barely keep it in the balancer. I double check and all the crap I'm using is what he came in with. I finally went and pulled his file. Sure enough, it was externally balanced on BOTH ends!!!!!

I call the customer and tell him to drop socks and grab his self and get over to the shop. I show him what is happening. Then, and only then, did he tell me what happened. I said, you don't think you should tell me (your engine builder) when something like this happens? You don't think it is important that I know you tore up a part? So after I tongue lashed him until I felt better, I made him drive over and get me the correct part.


Moral of the story is: don't just ASSume because it bolts on its correct. And always tell your engine builder when doo doo occurs. That guy was lucky he didn't spit the crank out, and possibly crash the car.
 
there is a difference between a pressure plate and a big chevy flexplate and a powerglide car does not have a flywheel. pressure plates-clutch cars-are balanced neutral at the manufacturer. when it is bolted to a flywheel there can be some slight error. so when we balance an assembly we suggest a pressure plate is with it and we spray paint a line on the pieces. most mere mortals do not rebalance when a clutch assembly is replaced-and do not need to. try to buy a replacement pressure plate made in USA
 
Marcohotrod said:
there is a difference between a pressure plate and a big chevy flexplate and a powerglide car does not have a flywheel. pressure plates-clutch cars-are balanced neutral at the manufacturer. when it is bolted to a flywheel there can be some slight error. so when we balance an assembly we suggest a pressure plate is with it and we spray paint a line on the pieces. most mere mortals do not rebalance when a clutch assembly is replaced-and do not need to. try to buy a replacement pressure plate made in USA
Click to expand...

No kidding. The example still stands.you balance the flywheel and pressure plate if it's a stick. The aftermarket calls what I call a flex plate a flywheel. That is why I noted it was a POWERGLIDE. They fact still stands the idiot put a neutral balance (of which there is no reals inch thing) flywheel where he should have had an externally balanced one.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but the back of the crank was about 65 grams out.

It's all the same. You balance the ASSEMBLY. That is anything that goes with it.

Really simple.


EDIT: dude, you should stop posting when you are wrong. Many, MANY manual flywheels are EXTERNAL BALANCE FROM THE FACTORY. Take a 360 dodge for example. Unless you make it INTERNAL BALANCE the flywheel or flex plate will be EXTERNAL BALANCE, just like the damper.

Be care what you post. You can jack some one up bad. You sure as hell can have an external balance flywheel from the factory. Fords do it too.

Geebus.


EDIT 2: exactly how many cranks shafts have you balanced? I don't care where the pressure plate is made, they are not even closed to balanced. If you PAID for a BALANCED ASSEMBLY, they had better damn well do it all. And it needs to be done. Dayam.
 
So this is where I am as of now :

flywheels :

Centerforce 143 tooth billet steel

Fidanza 130 tooth billet aluminium

Strangely, both are listed to fit the 318 LA engine... One thing also, one is steel, 30lbs, the other is aluminium, 13lbs. What would be your opinion on that? The steel is heavier yes but would give me more torque I suppose...
They are roughly the same price ...

clutches :

Centerforce Dual Friction 10.4"

McLeod Super StreetPro 10.5"

The McLeod comes with the alignment tool as weel as throwout bearing, the Centerforce doesn't.

So far that's where I got. Any input is welcome :)
 
yotah1 said:
So this is where I am as of now :

flywheels :

Centerforce 143 tooth billet steel

Fidanza 130 tooth billet aluminium

Strangely, both are listed to fit the 318 LA engine... One thing also, one is steel, 30lbs, the other is aluminium, 13lbs. What would be your opinion on that? The steel is heavier yes but would give me more torque I suppose...
They are roughly the same price ...

clutches :

Centerforce Dual Friction 10.4"

McLeod Super StreetPro 10.5"

The McLeod comes with the alignment tool as weel as throwout bearing, the Centerforce doesn't.

So far that's where I got. Any input is welcome :)
Click to expand...

You need the 130 tooth flywheel.

Unless you have an overall first gear of 12:1 or LOWER use a steel flywheel. I have never like a diaphragm pressure plate. I hate the centerforce design. Read the above on balance.

I would tell you to use a McLeod BB/Long cover, have them send it to you with 2200 pounds of pressure and no counter weight. Use their rag disc and forget it.
 
Every thing yellow rose wrote is correct. I balanced engines for a living in my younger years. Also please note that the A833 for the A bodies also came with the small "904" spline too. It wasn't just the overdrive tranny that had it.

Buy everything you need for the 318 like it was a 340 internal balance (as long as it's a '68 318 motor). Those are the parts you need. 10.5 clutch set-up with a 130 tooth flywheel, small yoke tranny u-joints, of course.

Russ.
 
The 143 is for something like farm truck apps with non-passenger car trannys. I've never seen a 143 in a EDIT; teener, pas-car.

I like my diaphragm clutch, but as it ages,and at cruising Rs (2200rpm), the flyweights occasionally stick, causing a slight vibration. A little Rs in neutral gets it sorted. Well, I'm assuming it's the flyweights.....
I had the stock 1970 flywheel re-balanced for my 360. It seems to have worked out just fine.

On a street teener, don't be tempted to go lightweight on the flywheel, unless you are gonna run a deep starter gear. Or unless you don't mind taking off like a Mustang; slipping the clutch out with plenty of revs. No! Show your Mopar torque with a heavy flywheel; Just dump it and go.
 
Alright thanks for the feedback, really appreciated as that's complete new territory for me right there :)

So, steel flywheel, and McLeod clutch.

Yellow Rose, what is it that you mean by BB/Long Cover ? BB is Big Block I guess. Long cover refers to what? Not sure I understand the 2200 pounds of pressure (is that the clutch spec?) and counter weight?
 
yotah1 said:
Alright thanks for the feedback, really appreciated as that's complete new territory for me right there :)

So, steel flywheel, and McLeod clutch.

Yellow Rose, what is it that you mean by BB/Long Cover ? BB is Big Block I guess. Long cover refers to what? Not sure I understand the 2200 pounds of pressure (is that the clutch spec?) and counter weight?
Click to expand...

McLeod makes a hybrid Borg and Beck pressure plate with Long pressure plate release fingers. Very nice pressure plate, especially at high rpm shifts. Call McLeod. Yellow Rose is also right about balance. Nearly every pressure plate I have balanced, is off. My 273 is also internally balanced. I balance the flywheel, then the pressure plate with the flywheel. I pretty much balance everything, including front brake rotors. Makes for a really smooth running car.
 
yellow rose said:
No kidding. The example still stands.you balance the flywheel and pressure plate if it's a stick. The aftermarket calls what I call a flex plate a flywheel. That is why I noted it was a POWERGLIDE. They fact still stands the idiot put a neutral balance (of which there is no reals inch thing) flywheel where he should have had an externally balanced one.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but the back of the crank was about 65 grams out.

It's all the same. You balance the ASSEMBLY. That is anything that goes with it.

Really simple.


EDIT: dude, you should stop posting when you are wrong. Many, MANY manual flywheels are EXTERNAL BALANCE FROM THE FACTORY. Take a 360 dodge for example. Unless you make it INTERNAL BALANCE the flywheel or flex plate will be EXTERNAL BALANCE, just like the damper.

Be care what you post. You can jack some one up bad. You sure as hell can have an external balance flywheel from the factory. Fords do it too.

Geebus.


EDIT 2: exactly how many cranks shafts have you balanced? I don't care where the pressure plate is made, they are not even closed to balanced. If you PAID for a BALANCED ASSEMBLY, they had better damn well do it all. And it needs to be done. Dayam.
Click to expand...

dude - you need to go back to reading class-I said pressure plates are neutral balanced-not flywheels
 
Double M said:
Every thing yellow rose wrote is correct. I balanced engines for a living in my younger years. Also please note that the A833 for the A bodies also came with the small "904" spline too. It wasn't just the overdrive tranny that had it.

Buy everything you need for the 318 like it was a 340 internal balance (as long as it's a '68 318 motor). Those are the parts you need. 10.5 clutch set-up with a 130 tooth flywheel, small yoke tranny u-joints, of course.

Russ.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm confused (likely) but I'm sure my 69 - made for 1970 a body a833 has the larger 727 slip yoke ?
and agreed the machine shop drilled holes and ground like crazy on my diaphragm clutch to get it to balance.
since then I've changed both flywheel and clutch and have noticed no difference. But next winter break I'll address all that and likely change clutch again. The op is talking street car with street tires? Wouldn't a diaphragm clutch be a better daily driver ?
 
inertia said:
The small slip yoke (904) came out in 1967 and early 68 - 833
Click to expand...
So, small slip yoke only in 67 and early 68? I see if he wanted something period correct he would want the smaller Slip yoke if that's the case ?
 
j par said:
... The op is talking street car with street tires? Wouldn't a diaphragm clutch be a better daily driver ?
Click to expand...

It depends on intended usage. B&B, B&B Long hybrid, or Long are better for High RPM shifting. General High Performance below 6K? shifting maybe the Diaphragm pressure plate. I've never had a diaphragm clutch. Not quite sure of the changeover RPM. It is best to be honest and talk to a good clutch manufacturer.
 
Marcohotrod said:
dude - you need to go back to reading class-I said pressure plates are neutral balanced-not flywheels
Click to expand...

Dude, PRESSURE PLATES AR NOT NEUTRAL BALANCED. Stop while you are behind.

Just go do 3 stick balance jobs and then come back here and tell me pressure plates are neutral. They are not even close.
 
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