A833 Neutral Issue

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AJ/FormS said:
Any position ?or three out of five?
If you find one position,(like fourth for instance), then;what @mcodecuda said.
it happens all the time with units in storage. Just stick a screwdriver between the brass and the clutch teeth and give it a lil twist to make sure it's loose. If all 4 are already loose, IDK.
Since it spins at 1:1; it would have to be locked input to output, and I've never seen that...
If I had to guess I'd guess the output has slipped forward. Altho I see no evidence of that.
More likely is that the Fourth-Gear brass is jammed into the brake because the struts are out of sync; I've seen rooky assemblers make that mistake.
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I'll check that out. I didn`t get to it today, other irons in the fire. Thanks.
 
UPDATE; So I pulled the side cover off again and counted the input to output shaft rotations. About 2.5+/- to 1. Which tells me it probably has something to do with 1st gear. I put the cover back on and can move the reverse lever into reverse and it locks up. I can move the forward (closest to the input shaft) lever into both gears 3rd/4th, but it still locks up. The rear most lever will only move forward (2nd gear?) past the neutral but not to the rear. Again, locks up. Something to do with 1st gear? Synchros?
 
Ok restated; all positions that cause a lock-up are ok. So if 4/3 and 2 cause a lock-up, those positions are OK.
Now;
if it won't go into first, most likely the brass is stuck on the brake, in a position that causes the brass teeth to butt into the slider teeth.
This is a simple fix; just put the slider into second to expose the first gear brass ring, and pry the first-gear brass off the first gear brake; problem solved.
Be careful to not overshift the slider all the way into Second gear because sometimes the struts pop up, and have to be coaxed back into their slots.
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This jam-up happens a lot when someone rams the trans thru the gears while both the input and the output are stationary. It will even happen after the trans is installed in the car. It will even happen when you come to a stop and try and put it into first gear, after the clutch disc has stopped spinning. In this case the usual solution is to put it into another gear, and put a lil clutch on it to break it loose, then go back and try first again.
When this happens repeatedly, it is because the brass and brake on first gear are working Too Good! I hate that, and so I take the trans apart and and swap that ring with Second. Then I take First gear over to the lathe and polish the brake smooth. So now, it takes a fraction longer to go into First at a stopsign, but at least I don't have to fiddle-fart with it. To make it even quicker, I grab First while the car is still moving ever so slowly, and I don't wait for the disc to stop spinning.
This problem usually only surfaces when you stop using EP oil and switch to ATF, or some mixture of ATF/EP. The EP gear oil is thick enough that it is a lil more difficult to squeeze out, which slows synchronization. But by the same token, the EP oil slows the cluster-gear down faster, increasing the likelihood of butting. so it's sortof a satch-22 situation.
I stopped using straight EP oil back in the 70s.
 
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Sounds reasonable. Now I have to go back and sweat in the shed and give it a try. Probably going to wait until tomorrow when it's supposed to rain and be a little cooler. Is the ring the brass piece with the teeth? Should it move forward or back? Pic's?
 
You know where it is now it's time to tear it down and see what's wrong physically. On a side note the last time I was into one of these, I needed an install arbor for the countershaft. I successfully used a piece of (don't remember) 1/2 or 3/4 heater hose, just got it GOOD and clean and it worked well It's not a bad idea, anyhow (if you figured not to) to tear it down and inspect the countergear bore condition, and inspect those needle bearings. Take a REALLY good "feel" and look at the two big ball bearings for roughness and wear. Inspect them for race and ball pitting.
 
twister6adh said:
Is the ring the brass piece with the teeth?
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yes, for this discussion, synchronizer ring is synonymous with; ring, brass, brass-ring, blocker, and blocker-ring, and yellow thingy.
Find the three struts and make sure they are engaged in the cutouts in the brass, all three of them. If they are not, you have a problem See note-1
If they are indexed then;
Find the biggest flat screwdriver you have that fits between the ring and the gear, push it down to move the brass over a hair, move a third of a revolution and repeat. repeat until it pops off.
note-1
if the struts are NOT indexed in the cutouts;
then most likely the brass is bent and will be useless. You can try turning the brass into synchronicity but I think it will not budge. If that is the case for you, then I would take the trans apart and replace that ring.
 
If the front bearing retainer is the large one, you can pull the input shaft out the front. If it's the small one, you'll have to take the trans apart. If it leads to that. I agree with AJ.
 
CRUZE 418 said:
If the front bearing retainer is the large one, you can pull the input shaft out the front. If it's the small one, you'll have to take the trans apart. If it leads to that. I agree with AJ.
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1969 year model. Small retainer. Gonna try to get to this winter hopefully.
 
The Dart that I had when I was 20, a '69, had the large retainer. Got the car almost new, used to break blocker rings from power shifting 2nd gear. Always pulled the input shaft out the front. The trans in the '69 that I now have has the small retainer, have to pull the tail shaft out now to do the same thing.
 
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