Advice Needed - Can't Start Rebuilt 273

-
Hmm.Call me stupid but I always check for compression by plugging the spark plug hole with a thumb or finger and cranking the engine by hand until the pressure bleeds past my finger. It needs to be lots of pressure though.

I've used this method for years and it has always worked for finding TDC at any cylinder.

Then I pull the cap off the dissy and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be aiming for the intake bolt at the front left of the motor. If you check you cap and plug wires you will find this is where the #1 plug wire seats.

Keep it simple and dont panic. And stop working on the car after night shifts. Get some rest first and then approach it with a clear head.
 
Update Saturday Afternoon:

I want to sincerely thank everyone for the helpful suggestions - especially the one about working on it after midnight shifts :) Actually, this is just a hobby so it's something I (usually) enjoy doing between work shifts if I keep the frustration in check.

OK, TDC and distributor position are no longer an issue. All of the many pieces of advice tend to be a little confusing sometimes (especially after working all night, lol). I had the distributor right the first time (when it ran a little), but reversed it 180 out yesterday. Today I used the wire-on-the-powerstroke method. Put the distributor in correctly. Adjusted all of the valves correctly using a Mopar chart, moving the crank 90 degrees at a time. Re-checked the firing order and re-checked that spark was getting to the plugs.

It now seems very close to starting. There is no more backfiring or puffs of fuel spitting out the carb. It's kicking over like it wants to go. I keep trying and pausing, adjusting the timing in small increments to find the best spot. I think I have it close now but I finally ran the battery too low and probably flooded the engine again as well. I am letting it charge up and will probably try it one more time before I have to go to bed.

~Bruce
 
dart4forte said:
With all this cranking of the engine be sure you are not washing down the cyl bores. Best way to check is pull your dipstick and smell the oil. If it smells like fuel change your oil. Also, did you use an additive with your oil? are you using a fresh cam or the original?
Click to expand...

Good thought. Thanks.
 
Final Saturday update:

Got it to start - sort of. After a lot of cranking and tweaking, it caught briefly a couple of times but wouldn't keep running. After it did try to run, it then wouldn't fire off again without a lot of cranking. When it did "run", it was pretty rough - probably because it still wasn't running on all 8 cylinders. I have quit for the day - battery is used up.

Any suggestions what I can try next? I have another known good carb from a 360 I will try on it.

My other small blocks have Champion N12YC plugs. Is this correct for a '66 273?

Also, I'm using the old Mopar starter which seems to turn it over quite slowly. I do have a mini starter I could use. Will it crank it over faster?

Thanks for any suggestions.
 
With all the issues you have had make sure your spark plugs are still good. I've had plugs get fouled from cranking and tweaking too much. At least clean them up real good. I sure hope your engine cranks pretty soon. I will be having a beer for you when it does. Way to stick with it too. I know it can get your brain into a big knot at times.
 
Sick, I would check your valve timing. With low compression and the fact that you rebuilt the engine and it hasn`t run yet sort of points to an issue with the valve timing. You`ve checked the valve adjustment, firing order, and if you have spark and fuel then it`s got to be your timing and/or a lack of compression that`s keeping the engine from starting. All you need is a 1/4 spacer (I use stacked feeler gauges) and a dial indicator. It simply involves preloading your number one intake lifter (in essence making it a solid lifter) and dialing in your crank damper mark within ten degrees of the "O" timing mark. Check your fsm for the details.
 
Longgone said:
Sick, I would check your valve timing. With low compression and the fact that you rebuilt the engine and it hasn`t run yet sort of points to an issue with the valve timing. You`ve checked the valve adjustment, firing order, and if you have spark and fuel then it`s got to be your timing and/or a lack of compression that`s keeping the engine from starting. All you need is a 1/4 spacer (I use stacked feeler gauges) and a dial indicator. It simply involves preloading your number one intake lifter (in essence making it a solid lifter) and dialing in your crank damper mark within ten degrees of the "O" timing mark. Check your fsm for the details.
Click to expand...

I did read up about that in my FSM. I wish there were some pictures because I'm not quite sure I understand the concept. I do have a dial indicator on hand. I have solid lifters so is the procedure different? Is the spacer used just to pre-load hydraulic lifters?
 
63dartman said:
With all the issues you have had make sure your spark plugs are still good. I've had plugs get fouled from cranking and tweaking too much. At least clean them up real good. I sure hope your engine cranks pretty soon. I will be having a beer for you when it does. Way to stick with it too. I know it can get your brain into a big knot at times.
Click to expand...

Luckily I have 2 sets of plugs I'm switching between. The problem now kinda seems more fuel/mixture related to me. I'm hoping that trying my other carb will help get it going.
 
Longgone is thinking you have hydraulic lifters? Not sure if I understand him. Anyway, Rotate the engine by hand and check the gaps on the valves. Sometimes they are on the ramps when you think they are on the base circle. Adjusting them "by the chart every 90 degrees" has never worked for me. Spark plugs should be N10Y or equivalent for high performance.
 
66fs said:
Longgone is thinking you have hydraulic lifters? Not sure if I understand him. Anyway, Rotate the engine by hand and check the gaps on the valves. Sometimes they are on the ramps when you think they are on the base circle. Adjusting them "by the chart every 90 degrees" has never worked for me. Spark plugs should be N10Y or equivalent for high performance.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I did go over the valve adjustment procedure twice today. I actually didn't rely solely on the 90 degree angle. I had a helper hold a piece of wire in the cylinder that was supposed to be topped out. The second time around, the gaps were pretty close, so I'm pretty confident I've got them close.

I just wish the engine would turn over faster. It is loose enough to turn easily by hand with a ratchet but the starter just seems to crank it so slowly.
 
pop the valve cover and verify that when damper is on 0 that both valves are closed on number 1 ,rocker up and pushrods loose to where you can spin them with your fingers. if not turn motor 180 and check again. then when this is verified make sure rotor is pointing at number 1 and firing order is 18436572 clockwise.mopar is 1357 drivers bank and 2468 passenger bank.if compression is still that low id check head gasket sealing.
 
It's kinda hard to do, unless you have a better stand than I have ( I have to pull the head)
Put the indicator in # 1; find TDC; degree the wheel to 0.
now put indicator on pushrod, or if you can , on the intake lifter; get reading of duration @ .050. Same with exhaust.
Now use the formula on the wheel, or in a book, and calculate the centerline of the cam. Should be between 108 to 112. If not, cam is clocked wrong.

or pull the timing cover off, and check.
 
green1 said:
It's kinda hard to do, unless you have a better stand than I have ( I have to pull the head)
Put the indicator in # 1; find TDC; degree the wheel to 0.
now put indicator on pushrod, or if you can , on the intake lifter; get reading of duration @ .050. Same with exhaust.
Now use the formula on the wheel, or in a book, and calculate the centerline of the cam. Should be between 108 to 112. If not, cam is clocked wrong.

or pull the timing cover off, and check.
Click to expand...

Pulling the timing cover somehow seems more desirable :) That will be the last resort though. If I get to that point and I do find that the marks are lined up, I guess I will just have to throw up my hands.
 
Sorry sick, there I go again, giving you advice that doesn`t pertain to your application. To make it relevant the spacer does remove the hydraulics of the lifter, (in your case you wouldn`t need it). I was recalling doing the test on my 340 not taking into account that your car had solid lifters. What the test will show you though is the relation of your cam position to the crank and if your timing chain is on correctly. If you can find a 67 fsm there should be a detailed description of the test with a solid cam as used in the 273`s.
 
ABodySickness said:
I just wish the engine would turn over faster. It is loose enough to turn easily by hand with a ratchet but the starter just seems to crank it so slowly.
Click to expand...

I did replace my old starter for a new ministarter and it cranks much faster compared to the original starter. I got a 383 cid engine.
 
63dartman said:
Have you rechecked the compression to see if the valve adjustment helped at all?
Click to expand...

I did recheck #1 and found no change. I didn't bother to check the rest. I then put on a good Edelbrock carb. I got it to almost start a couple of times again, but basically the same results as before.

There are a lot of "unknowns" with this engine. I have spent a lot of time on it and I'm about ready to cut my losses. I don't want to be a quitter, but I do have other options. My plan right now is to pull the front cover and check the timing marks. I they are correct, that engine is coming out and I will install the 360 I should have put in there in the first place.
 
Is the car an automatic or manual trans? If it's a 4 speed find a hill or get a tow........ desperate times call for desperate actions!!!

Did you ever replace the plugs? I had a 69 340 Dart that I put a new set of Champions in. After about a 1000 miles it got real hard/impossible to start, long story very short we put the old plugs back in it and it fired right up.
 
BigSlim said:
Is the car an automatic or manual trans? If it's a 4 speed find a hill or get a tow........ desperate times call for desperate actions!!!

Did you ever replace the plugs? I had a 69 340 Dart that I put a new set of Champions in. After about a 1000 miles it got real hard/impossible to start, long story very short we put the old plugs back in it and it fired right up.
Click to expand...

LOL, thought about that, but unfortunately it's an automatic. Yeah, I have 2 sets of plugs. I started with a brand new set. After a while I pulled the set from the running engine I removed from the car. I thought about buying yet another set but I think there is something else wrong here, given the low compression.

The definition of madness: "Doing the same thing and expecting a different result." :)
 
Are you 100% sure the wiring is correct. I'm talking about the run/start circuit and the coil? I also don't know if the compression is really an issue either. I've never checked compression on a new engine without the rings seated. Maybe someone else would know. Do you have good grounds for the elecrical? Do you have the engine grounded to the frame? I sure hope you get this figured out. If your thinking about dropping in a 360 I think your fun factor would increase too:)
 
63dartman said:
Are you 100% sure the wiring is correct. I'm talking about the run/start circuit and the coil? I also don't know if the compression is really an issue either. I've never checked compression on a new engine without the rings seated. Maybe someone else would know. Do you have good grounds for the elecrical? Do you have the engine grounded to the frame? I sure hope you get this figured out. If your thinking about dropping in a 360 I think your fun factor would increase too:)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm sure about the wiring. The car had a running 340 in it. It is the one in the link in my signature. I kept everything including the distributor on the 273 engine because I didn't want any issues like that.

I just finished pulling the cover and checked the timing marks. They line up perfectly. I was really hoping they were off :) While doing that job something occurred to me. Here's a little story:

I got this engine in a project car I purchased years ago. I was told it had been rebuilt but never started. The previous owner gave up on the project and parked the car. When I got it, I spent a lot of time trying to get it started - same results as now. The engine was so tight you could barely turn it over so I figured the bearing clearances were wrong or something. When I originally pulled the engine, oil poured out of the front of it. Weird.

I eventually sold the car years ago but kept the engine. I recently decided to put this in my Dart (originally a 273 car) to make it more of a daily driver. So I tore this engine down and went through it completely. I discovered that the oil leak out the front was because the front pieces of the pan gasket were completely gone. Everything inside the engine was new and clean except that some kind of gunk had gummed up the rings and cylinder walls. The pistons would barely move and the rings were stuck in the grooves. I cleaned up all the gunk and bought new rings. When I put it back together, everything turned freely.

Now today, when I pulled the timing gear cover, I was careful but the front pieces of the pan gasket tore off - just like I had found it. So, that got me to thinking that someone had taken that cover off before I got the car - then just slapped it back together. I'm thinking that the last unlucky SOB that worked on this engine had gone through the same steps I have :)

Anyway, since the timing marks are lined up, I'm pulling the engine. Maybe the cam is screwed up. It's probably not even the correct cam -who knows.
 
If you are using a ballast resistor get a new one. They will cause a no start condition and occasionally fire across the fault. Even if this does not fix the problem a good idea to keep an extra in the glove box.
If I'm not mistaken the distributor setting is opposite to what I first thought the first time I reinstalled the Distributor. If it still won't start after replacing the ballast and you are sure you have a good power pack (If Elec. ignition) I agree with many others probably 180 degrees off on distributor.
Please let me know what you find I am curious now!
If it's the Ballast you owe me a drink! Dr. Pepper od Mt. Dew fine!
 
Wow! I have been following your post hoping the next thing you try get's it started. May-be that 360 would be the best bet. I'm like you, I hate to give up.
With all the checks and adjustments you've made it should start and run. Who knows, maybe the prev. owner picked up a cam at a swap meet and it was a marine cam that runs backward. Good luck! It sounds like you've covered all bases. toolmanmike
 
Dodge73Dart said:
If you are using a ballast resistor get a new one. They will cause a no start condition and occasionally fire across the fault. Even if this does not fix the problem a good idea to keep an extra in the glove box.
If I'm not mistaken the distributor setting is opposite to what I first thought the first time I reinstalled the Distributor. If it still won't start after replacing the ballast and you are sure you have a good power pack (If Elec. ignition) I agree with many others probably 180 degrees off on distributor.
Please let me know what you find I am curious now!
If it's the Ballast you owe me a drink! Dr. Pepper od Mt. Dew fine!
Click to expand...

Good choice on the drink. I love fountain Dr Pepper with a couple of squirts of vanilla in it. Not all parts of the country have that available :)

I can pretty much guarantee it's not the ballast. My 340 started very easily. I pulled the 340 and replaced it with the 273 in about a day. Nothing in the ignition changed - same distributor, plug wires, etc.

Anyhoo, we are never going to find out now. It's coming out and a 360 is going in. This 360 is a known easy starting, good running engine too - so if I have this problem with it, we may have to revisit this issue later :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top