How long have you been running without the outer bearing dust cap?
5 lbs over the factory torque spec ain't jack.....and a wheel center that's moved out 1" does put more loading on all the front suspension parts.
Almost lost a wheel
- Thread starter valiantpatrol
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Yes, but he has drums so it's not a 5 ft-lb over torque, it's a 15 ft-lb over torque because the spec for those is 55 ft/lbs. And really even that isn't crazy, but on a 50+ year old lug stud that's been over torqued who knows how many times it could have been more than enough. Since this is the LH stud side of the car it could have been absolutely hammered only god knows how many times by clueless techs or previous owners. This just finished it off.
And yes, a wheel center that's moved out 1" does put more loading on the front suspension. But that's the same whether it's done with a spacer or with a wheel that has an offset that accomplishes the same thing. I don't know what wheels the OP is running, but just as an example if you've got a 17x7 with a 5" backspace and a 1" spacer, or a 17x7 with a 4" backspace and no spacer, the load on the studs is the same.
Running 15x6 factory aluminum 16 slot wheels. Close to neutral offset.
harrisonm
Well-Known Member
Well, all y'all can think what you want. Many, many years ago, I had a 69 Barracuda with properly installed and torqued spacers. 4" bolt pattern wheels like O wanted did not exist. One of the front ones got loose and the wheel started to wobble. Fortunately I pulled over quickly, and there was very little damage. So I am not a fan of them.
Wvbuzzmaster
Well-Known Member
Wheel spacers are a touchy topic and you will get mixed information everywhere. But the facts are identical to keep them on the car vs keeping any other wheel on the car… proper lug nuts, proper torque, and if the installation seems questionable to you, it probably is. You got extremely lucky considering it sounds like you questioned the install from the day you installed them and to make up for less lug nut contacting the adapter taper seat, you compensated by overtorquing the lug nuts and only checked when you had a problem. If you wouldn’t install a wheel directly to the hub that way, don’t install an adapter to the hub that way.
Where the mixed information comes in is everyone has had an experience and not the same experience. I had a wheel issue on a trailer due to an incorrect lug nut and replaced the studs in the hub only to have a stud issue later that month on that hub. Minimum solution needed was replace that one hub; so I replaced both axles, all wheels, tires, and all the suspension. Needed no, but with two issues I was eliminating any further issues because the initial cause was the trailer was abused before I owned it, so to eliminate that abuse, replace the parts abused.
You converted from 5x4 to 5x4.5 pattern with those adapters, so now you need new studs minimum all the way around due to over torquing all lug nuts. But now you should ask how do your brakes perform, could be a perfect time to swap to 1973+ 5x4.5 front disc brakes and eliminate adapters at least on the front and maybe redrill the rears axles for 5x4.5. And since you like spirited driving, it’s a bonus to have better brakes and no adapters…
On my Duster I wanted to move the rear wheels out 1” to make it look better, I could have done it with 1” wheel spacers easy, but I don’t like adding variables so I bought 2 new wheels with 1” less backspace. Cost me $300 for new wheels, and the wheels I replaced had 200 miles on them since I bought them new for $300 2 years prior. But I like spirited driving and $300 is only $250 more expensive than 1” wheel spacers and 25 grand less than replacing the car… and peace of mind that a wheel adapter on my car isn’t likely to cause an accident that gets anyone hurt, because no adapter. Don’t shortcut safety… these cars feel small enough around these ever growing SUVs, no need to create a way to get tangled up with one.
Where the mixed information comes in is everyone has had an experience and not the same experience. I had a wheel issue on a trailer due to an incorrect lug nut and replaced the studs in the hub only to have a stud issue later that month on that hub. Minimum solution needed was replace that one hub; so I replaced both axles, all wheels, tires, and all the suspension. Needed no, but with two issues I was eliminating any further issues because the initial cause was the trailer was abused before I owned it, so to eliminate that abuse, replace the parts abused.
You converted from 5x4 to 5x4.5 pattern with those adapters, so now you need new studs minimum all the way around due to over torquing all lug nuts. But now you should ask how do your brakes perform, could be a perfect time to swap to 1973+ 5x4.5 front disc brakes and eliminate adapters at least on the front and maybe redrill the rears axles for 5x4.5. And since you like spirited driving, it’s a bonus to have better brakes and no adapters…
On my Duster I wanted to move the rear wheels out 1” to make it look better, I could have done it with 1” wheel spacers easy, but I don’t like adding variables so I bought 2 new wheels with 1” less backspace. Cost me $300 for new wheels, and the wheels I replaced had 200 miles on them since I bought them new for $300 2 years prior. But I like spirited driving and $300 is only $250 more expensive than 1” wheel spacers and 25 grand less than replacing the car… and peace of mind that a wheel adapter on my car isn’t likely to cause an accident that gets anyone hurt, because no adapter. Don’t shortcut safety… these cars feel small enough around these ever growing SUVs, no need to create a way to get tangled up with one.
You properly torqued them on install, which is great. But did you re-torque them again within 100 miles? Did you check them again after that? Because like any new wheel install, that’s required.
Spacers are no different than aluminum wheels. They’re supposed to be torqued at regular intervals.
I bought a new trailer earlier this year. Steel rims mind you. Before I left the lot I watched them torque all of the lug nuts to spec with a torque wrench, at their request. Then I had to sign a waiver saying I would check the torque again at 100 miles. No **** (I’m guessing some knucklehead tried to sue them). My drive home was more than 100 miles, but I wasn’t pulling off the freeway to torque lug nuts.
But you know what? When I checked them after I got home, a handful of lug nuts between the dual axles needed more torque. I literally watched the guy at the trailer dealer torque them to spec, heard the torque wrench click. They weren’t loose, but, they weren’t at spec anymore either. And that is why there are mileage intervals to check torque on new wheels. And that goes for new spacers too. If you don’t follow the torque check schedule, well, you haven’t installed and maintained them properly.
People blame the spacers, but I’d be willing to bet that the install/maintenance is the issue 99.9% of the time.
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harrisonm
Well-Known Member
All good points. I was 19 at the time, and the spacers/adapters were installed at the tire shop where I bought the 4.5" bolt pattern mag wheels. Nobody told me about retorquing them, and back then I knew no better.
Hey I’ve done the same. I know better now, but I certainly haven’t always.
My point is only that people blame the spacers, but, I would bet in a lot of those cases the spacers weren’t to blame as much as maintenance.
It’s definitely a consideration, with the spacer/adaptors you’ve got twice as many lug nuts to maintain torque on. More parts means more things to go wrong. But all things being equal, the spacers are safe if properly maintained even if it’s more work to do that.
You're even "supposed" to check torque on stone stock wheels (with no spacers) over time. Every oil change comes to mind, but that might not be enough. People just get used to leaving well enough alone. I'm in 100% agreement with all your points. You did it this time without trying to make people feel stupid. I'm proud of you. lol But my personal preference for wheel adapters has not and will not change. I don't like them. I do completely agree and understand there are "good ones" out there and they......like everything else need attention to make sure they're not trying to do something stupid. You know what my biggest problem is with them? I'm too frikkin lazy to retorque them over time. I do enough maintenance on my car that I check the torque on my stock wheels plenty often enough.
33IMP
Well-Known Member
I would determine the spline size of your 7/16 studs, left and right, front and rear (likely different f&r).
Then hunt up 20 new studs with the right spline size.... in 1/2"
Then hunt up 20 new studs with the right spline size.... in 1/2"
Thanks to all who contributed to a spirited discussion. My plan of action is to switch the left hand side to 7/16 R/H threads so I can use the adapter manufacturers larger conical seat nuts to hold spacers to drum and rear axle. Will also use locktite on those larger conical seat nuts, properly torqued, per adapter makers instructions. I'll consider my repair tempoary until I decide whether or not to upgrade to BBP disk brakes.
dmopar74
Well-Known Member
Meh.... I've jumped a 2016 ram 2500 crew cab with wheel spacers on the front end and then put 40,000 miles on afterwards. Zero problems but i did retorqe and add loctite per the instructions, seems that any failure I read about on the interwebs there is always something questionable about install or mantanance
Yes sir, all good points. Nobody has to like them or run them, I myself prefer not to have them. They do add complexity, twice as many lug nuts to maintain torque on. But that's totally different than saying that all of them, regardless of quality, are unsafe or even dangerous.
Sounds like a good plan to me!
And pretty much all trucks with duallies have a spacer just like the ones the OP is running, they bolt on and then have studs for the next wheel. Straight from the factory. Granted, most of those are steel but they're also rated for much higher loads. Which just returns to my point, as long as they're good quality spacers and the base material is strong enough to support the load on the studs they have, they're just fine as long as they're installed and maintained properly.
Seem to be two distinct groups of thought on here. It's all the adapters fault and the substandard installation crowd. To the adapters are bad crowd, even though the adapter didn't fail, I say I agree 1000%
To the group who fault my substandard installation, with inappropriate shortcuts taken, I ask what ever happened to lying in support of a fellow car buddy ! I thought this was a support group ???
To the group who fault my substandard installation, with inappropriate shortcuts taken, I ask what ever happened to lying in support of a fellow car buddy ! I thought this was a support group ???
33IMP
Well-Known Member
You're safe. You learned a lesson. You're gonna do better this time. That's all good!
Sorry, that's all the support I got.....lol
For what it's worth, I have rear wheel spacers on three of my cars, the slowest is low elevens. Quality spacers don't bother me at all.
Sorry, that's all the support I got.....lol
For what it's worth, I have rear wheel spacers on three of my cars, the slowest is low elevens. Quality spacers don't bother me at all.
Wvbuzzmaster
Well-Known Member
This is a support group… and we want everyone to be safe out there and not get hurt. We all have learned from hard lessons in life very similar to yours. I know you came here asking because it scared you and you want to deconstruct the whys because I know you don’t want this to happen again, or to anyone else. Otherwise you would not have shared the level of detail you did about your installation process. Wheel torque and lug nut style is a major player in the root cause analysis, and is supported by other members experience, with and without spacers wheels come off from those two reasons. At the time you installed these you did not know how serious or that it was or could become a problem, but now you know. But additionally, if you can use the lessons you learned to prevent the same oversight on other member’s vehicle out there… it could save someone from a worse disaster by reminding them to check their spacer installation. It might not be the support you seek, but it could just be the support you, and others need to be able to stay safe and continue to enjoy your life as you have it. Long winded yes, but realize none of us would be responding if we didn’t care enough about you as a member to give you the information you need to hear to continue living your life safely.
So, we're supposed to overlook your mistakes and just tell you it's all the spacers fault so you feel good? Well, it wasn't the spacers fault. Incorrect torque, the wrong lug nuts for the spacers, and the unknown history of the studs themselves are likely to blame for the failure. That's not a personal attack on you, those are just the facts.
Everyone makes mistakes, I've certainly made plenty. Support isn't blindly telling you it's not your fault. It's showing you what you did wrong, so you learn, and don't make the same mistakes again.
Properly installed those spacers are safe, and spacers similar to those are on dually trucks and semi's by the millions. Blaming the spacers so you feel good about yourself just isn't reality. What you should take out of this is the proper way to install and maintain those spacers so that you don't have a catastrophic failure that injures you or others.
If you decide that you don't like spacers and don't want to use them going forward that's fine too, I've got no dog in that fight. But don't just blame the spacers for an improper installation and refuse to learn from your mistakes.
I think he was just being funny
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
7/16"?
I forgot about that. Do what's necessary to use the 1/2" stuff that's been used for the last fifty years.
33IMP
Well-Known Member
Agreed. That's why I suggested it in #35, lol.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
much like RRR my stance on a-dapt-ors is unlikely to change, but if i was in such a predicament i would 100% be upgrading to RH studs, using billet pieces and bird dogging them lugs with my torque wrench.
the problem is most people running adapters are looking at it from the temporary point of view-- oh i'm only doing this till... this'll be good enough till... and then, "till" never comes. it's one of those "it's only temporary till it's not" kinda deals.
the problem is most people running adapters are looking at it from the temporary point of view-- oh i'm only doing this till... this'll be good enough till... and then, "till" never comes. it's one of those "it's only temporary till it's not" kinda deals.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
i don't think there's enough meat in the drum hub to blow it out for a 1/2" stud
i mean, i've *seen* it done, and frankly i'd take adapters over that approach.
out back, i don't think it'd be a problem. or if he's running a 7.25 dr. diff sells BBP axles.
33IMP
Well-Known Member
Are the splines of a 7/16 stud smaller than a half inch? (I mean overall dimension. Not the half inch stud spline)
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
maybe? i'll poke around and see if i have one to measure.
i think i get where you're going... screw in hub stud?
33IMP
Well-Known Member
Not really, I think the hub would be too hard to tap by hand. I was just kinda assuming the splines in the 7/16 studs would be big enough (and MAYBE the same) to substitute a 1/2 stud with the same spline size.
Well you know what happens when you assume. I guess if it was that easy, it would have been done, many times, and there'd probably be a sticky. lol.
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