altenator alternatives?

[BLOW-DART]

Looking to upgrade the charging system on my barracuda. currently running electronic ignition on a old stock altenator(30 or 40a?)

i have never ran the battery dead, but she wont get close to the 14 unless im at about 2krpm. if i want to run more than 2 aux items(lights, heater, wipers, radio) forget it, gauge shows about 12. ive heard of the gm one wire conversion, seems pretty painless besides mounting it.

curious to see what other options people are going with. like most now days times are alittle tight so cost is a big factor in this swap but this car has become my daily commuter so i have to get the charging system solid going into winter.

not against staying with a mopar altenator, i like the look and dont mind not having to change the brackets.

all feedback is appreciated.

 

[abodyjoe]

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand/Powermaster/Make/DODGE/?keyword=alternator


i went with a regular 78 amp from a 85 ish chrysler. its not one wire though.

 

[srduster340]

Try MagnumHP.com. they offer Toyota 4 runner alternator/ bracket kits for Mopars.

 

[BLOW-DART]

One more question to throw in here. Someone once told me to put a smaller pulley on the alt. makes since, would probably charge better at an idle. anyone try that? wear out the bearings quickly?

 

[BLOW-DART]

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand/Powermaster/Make/DODGE/?keyword=alternator


i went with a regular 78 amp from a 85 ish chrysler. its not one wire though.

ill have to find a very helpful kragens employee that will let me take 5 or 6 different chrysler alt's off the shelf and see what modern styles might still bolt up with out much bracket changing. theres got to be a cheaper way than a 170 dollar altenator.

 

[67Dart273]

Let's get real here. A stock alternator THAT IS PROPERLY WORKING should be able to maintain charging voltage with "normal" loads, certainly even with headlights it doesn't take anywhere near 2K RPM to "get up"

You have something wrong with your present system. Either you have a wiring problem, a grounds problem, or the alternator has one or more diodes open, or even possibly one (of three) stator windings open.

Even just "throwing on" a stocker rebuilt exchange unit should solve the problem IF IF the alternator is actually the problem.

Given the history of the problems with Mopar ammeters, and the harness area surrounding the infamous "bulkhead connector" I'd start there before you start worrying about some huge upgrade unit.

So do some troubleshooting.

One BIG first easy thing to try is to "rig" a good heavy piece of BIG wire, say, no6 or even no8, or if you have some no 10 lying around, wire up about 3 (plenty) in parallel, and jumper DIRECTLY from the alternator output stud to the battery positive connection. You should be able to hook an eye terminal right under the (it IS clean, right?) battery post.

Now do some checks. See if this improves things.

Take your voltmeter, and with the engine running, high idle, all accessories off, do these checks, then do them again with the lights and heater on

Put one voltmeter probe RIGHT ON the battery positive post. Put the other probe on the ignition feed to the regulator. You should read VERY little voltage, zero is perfect, the lower the better. If it reads MORE THAN .2 (two tenths) of a volt, you have a drop in the harness, either a bad terminal, or the bulkhead connector, or the connector on the ignition switch, or the switch itself.

Now do the same thing for ground. Put one probe right on the battery neg. terminal, the other on the regulator CASE. Once again, zero volts is perfect, and you want NO MORE than .2V. If so, you have a ground problem, and need to run additional ground jumpers from say, the firewall/ regulator case to the engine block, to the frame, to battery neg.

If none of this pans out, next start looking at the alternator itself. BEST way to check this is what's called a "carbon pile" load. Service stations used to have these, any decent "independent" little mechanic should too. You might have to pay a buck or two. The mech can load the system with the engine running, watch the voltage, and determine about what the alternator is actually capable of outputting, either under the regulator, or "full field".

You can try having the alternator "checked" but frankly most of these dime store "bench testers" are not worth a crap, and are not capable of actually determining WHAT output the unit has.

 

[slantsixdan]

Before you toss a higher-amp alternator on your car, see here (including links) and here. Joe, you are (literally) playing with fire.

The alternator you're after is from an '88-'91 Dodge Dakota, D-series truck, or B-series van with a 3.9 V6, 5.2 V8, or 5.9 V8; or an '88-'89 M-body (Diplomat, Gran Fury, New Yorker Fifth Avenue, or Canadian Caravelle). Does not matter if it's the Chrysler, Bosch, or Nippondenso unit; all three are physically and electrically interchangeable. The Nippondenso is the best design, also the smallest and lightest. Any of these three is much more efficient and has much better low-RPM output than any of the older Chrysler-designed alternators. They come in two ratings: 40/90A and 50/120A. The first figure is max output at engine idle speed; the second is max output regardless of speed. The 40/90 is plenty. In the '88-'91 applications listed above, they have the V-belt pulley you'll need, and electrically it'll hook up to any earlier Mopar regulator. Shave 1/8" off the front of the existing "lower" (pivot, not upper slider) bracket, or for an even cleaner installation (w/V8 engine only) go ahead and grab the '88-'91 brackets, too.

If you're using the '70-up electronic regulator, just connect one field wire to each of the new alternator's two field terminals. If you're using the '69-down regulator, connect the one field wire to either of the alternator's field terminals, and ground the alternator's other field terminal.

Don't get a "remanufactured" alternator from a parts store; they're junk.

 

[abodyjoe]

Joe, you are (literally) playing with fire.

not at all. my car has been rewired with an american auto wire kit. it will hold a 100 amp easy. was going to go with a 100 amp but they were just too much $$$ at the time.

 

[mullinax95]

I'm running a stock mopar 75 amp alternator with the later model voltage regulator (75 model charging system) , March pulleys ( a little smaller I do believe), 4 ga wire alternator to starter relay, relays for the high and low beams, amp gauge by pass, and don't have any problems. I would do some of these simple things before changing alternator brackets, or Toyo alternator. I bet if you just up the charging system to 75 amps or more you will be alright. But you have to make sure you have a healthy wiring system before you up the amps. I bought the EZ wiring kit and rewired the entire car so I knew everything would be ok.

Go here:

http://madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

It's very helpful information if you have not already read it.

 

[slantsixdan]

A stock alternator THAT IS PROPERLY WORKING should be able to maintain charging voltage with "normal" loads,

Wellll...kinda. The Chrysler alternator was certainly better than a DC generator, but it never gave much output at engine idle. You probably won't flatten the battery, but that leads to annoyances like dimming lights and slowing wipers and defogger fans when you're in stop-and-go traffic.

Even just "throwing on" a stocker rebuilt exchange unit should solve the problem

…and introduce new ones. "Remanufactured" parts are almost all junk. Those from Autozone/Kragen/Checker/Schucks and other "Davey Do-It-Yerselfer" types of places are especially craptacular. Usually these are much worse than the originals in terms of low-RPM output, because the rotors and stators are no longer a matched set. Also, the consumables—brushes, bushings, bearings, etc.—are low-bid trash from China. It's tempting to get the $24.99 "remanufactured" alternator from the parts store, complete with the "lifetime warranty", but if you want to do the repair just once, stay away from this indifferently-thrown-together junk. That "lifetime warranty" means you get to spend your "lifetime" swapping repeatedly-dead remanufactured parts under "warranty". Much better to take your alternator to a local auto starter-alternator rebuilder (check your yellow pages) and have it rebuilt and returned to you. The warranty may be as short as 30 days (usually 90) but you'll likely never need it. The cost may be somewhat higher, but it's worth it to get quality components and skilled work. Of course, you have to start with a basically sound rebuildable alternator; if you've already got a thrown-together "remanufactured" unit, the rebuilder can't magically bring it back. Old Car Parts Northwest has barrels full of new Chrysler alternators if you're not going the '88-'91 route.

One BIG first easy thing to try is to "rig" a good heavy piece of BIG wire, say, no6 or even no8, or if you have some no 10 lying around, wire up about 3 (plenty) in parallel, and jumper DIRECTLY from the alternator output stud to the battery positive connection.

Good idea for charging efficacy, though there are tradeoffs. It'll make the ammeter stop indicating correctly, and it'll place three always-hot unprotected high-current wires right up at the front of the vehicle.

Put one voltmeter probe RIGHT ON the battery positive post. Put the other probe on the ignition feed to the regulator. You should read VERY little voltage, zero is perfect, the lower the better. If it reads MORE THAN .2 (two tenths) of a volt, you have a drop in the harness, either a bad terminal, or the bulkhead connector, or the connector on the ignition switch, or the switch itself.

Yup. Also check line voltage across battery + and -, then check line voltage across the alternator output and battery -. If you find substantial difference between these two readings, you've got a voltage drop issue in the main electrical line which includes the ignition switch and the ammeter (like on my '73, over 1v drop; I really need to get in there and address it!).

Now do the same thing for ground. Put one probe right on the battery neg. terminal, the other on the regulator CASE. Once again, zero volts is perfect, and you want NO MORE than .2V. If so, you have a ground problem, and need to run additional ground jumpers from say, the firewall/ regulator case to the engine block, to the frame, to battery neg.

Yep, running this ground loop will improve voltage regulation efficiency and often solves the flickering lights caused by oscillating voltage regulation.

If none of this pans out, next start looking at the alternator itself. BEST way to check this is what's called a "carbon pile" load.

True, but you can also do a quick and easy at-home test: An open diode will drop the alternator's output significantly but not to zero, keeping the battery charged at higher RPMs but flagging at idle. To test for this, disconnect the wire from the "FLD" terminal on the alternator. Carefully run a jumper wire from the "BAT" terminal (alternator output stud) to the alternator's "FLD" terminal — if you are working with a '70-up "dual field" alternator, you need to ground the alternator's other field terminal — and start the engine. DON'T run it much above idle speed, for you are "full fielding" the alternator, taking the regulator out of the system, and if you rev it too high, the alternator will produce enough voltage to blow bulbs and cause other damage. If the full-fielded alternator gives you normal or near-normal light brightness, blower speed, etc., then the alternator's probably more or less fine. If not, then it's in need of service.

You can try having the alternator "checked" but frankly most of these dime store "bench testers" are not worth a crap

The ones at the parts store, you mean. They're actually excellent at the job they were designed to do (sell crappy "remanufactured" alternators and starters to people who don't need them).

 

[slantsixdan]

not at all. my car has been rewired with an american auto wire kit. it will hold a 100 amp easy. was going to go with a 100 amp but they were just too much $$$ at the time.

Ah, you didn't say that before; I inferred that you tossed a 78A alternator on stock wiring.

 

[abodyjoe]

ill have to find a very helpful kragens employee that will let me take 5 or 6 different chrysler alt's off the shelf and see what modern styles might still bolt up with out much bracket changing. theres got to be a cheaper way than a 170 dollar altenator.

it was an 85 5th ave that i got the alt for.. bolted right on and was like $50

 

[JR]

:-\"

 

[67Dart273]

…. "Remanufactured" parts are almost all junk. ...............


Good idea for charging efficacy, though there are tradeoffs. It'll make the ammeter stop indicating correctly, and it'll place three always-hot unprotected high-current wires right up at the front of the vehicle.



.

Trying to figure out how to "quote the quotes" turns out to be a nightmare.

What I meant by the big wire bypass was only as a temporary testing measure, to help determine if there is a problem with the bulkhead/ harness

So far as rebuilds, the point there is that if the old one has a popped diode, even something as LOW on the food chain as a (gag) rebuilt will improve things immensely.

Yup. I agree. I hate rebuilders

 

[slantsixdan]

360Scamp's got another excellent suggestion there. If you don't want to make your own bracketry to mount a Delco internally-regulated alternator, you can get a set of the brackets to put such an alternator on the manifold side of the engine here, though they won't work with P/S. You can get an adaptor to perch a Delco alternator on your existing Mopar brackets from most any good alternator rebuilding house; see #A270 here.

 

[BLOW-DART]

hmm......I have a lot of stuff to try. im going to print out this thread, ill be back in a few weeks. thanks for all the advice everyone, my electrical knowledge is slim, this will be a good learning experience.

thanks

 

[BLOW-DART]

i know i need to replace most wires. all looks original and was a southern cal car. very brittle wires

 

[67Dart273]

............... Delco internally-regulated alternator................

'S not clear to me whether the OP has a /6 or V8, but "back when" I used to run a Delco on my 340 pretty much with the stock brackets. I don't recall how I did that, definately modified the spacer, and MAY have sawed the Delco pivot somewhat

 

[JR]

Mounting a GM alt on a V8 is easy. I ran one for years on a 360.

 

[the67fish]

a one wire setup wont do what you need as it wont sense when accessories are turned on-headlights, fans,stereos etc, it just puts out one constant voltage back to the battery. Our local starter/alternater rebuilder/auto electrics guru here says that 60 amps is plenty for most any application, it only needs to put out .5-1 volt more than the battery voltage. Where people get in trouble is with wiring and mainly radiator fans not being wired in with a relay. So I guess if you had a police car with a computer in it, police radio, sirens, flashing lights etc you would need to have over 100 ish amps. I put a 63 amp chevy alternator on mine, $35 bucks.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachment.php?attachmentid=185395&stc=1&d=1287983866

 

[BLOW-DART]

Fixed my problem. my car has the newer style voltage regulator (flat chrome box) and i noticed the alternator that was on the car had a internal regulator. went to the auto parts store and bought a 60a alternator. bolted it on and now instead of low voltage i was pumping out 17-18 as soon as i got past 1800rpm's. spent all day studying wiring diagrams, everything was checking out, all the right wires to the voltage reg, battery, resistor, etc. bought a new voltage regulator, that didnt change anything. then after multiple tests with lots of voltmeters etc on the alternator, battery i noticed that my volt gauge was pulling its positive source from one of the two wires right off the voltage regulator. seemed like that probably wasnt a good idea and sure enough. snipped the extra red wire, and now the battery isnt over charging, the alternator is regulating and putting out the right amount now! also the previous owner who swapped the car over to electronic ignition replaced about 4 wires in the loom all to the color blue....nightmare for trouble shooting! and just to keep things on track with mopars, as soon as i got this problem figured out i noticed that my master cylinder is now leaking under my carpet(old carpet) so off to fixing another problem!

 

[Revhendo]

With all do respect to Dan and the others who spit on dimestore bebuilds,,,,,,
I got stuck on a Sunday when my Val decided she didn't like her alternator anymore.
In order to get to work the next day, I bought one for the incredible price of 24.99.
Six years later and I am still getting to work on that bad boy. I'm thinking I got my moneys worth out of it. Oh, and I got a 20 buck electronic distributor that's been going strong for three. So, yeah, they're cheap garbage, but I'm not cutting off my nose in spite of my face.

 

[BLOW-DART]

Fixed my problem. my car has the newer style voltage regulator (flat chrome box) and i noticed the alternator that was on the car had a internal regulator. went to the auto parts store and bought a 60a alternator. bolted it on and now instead of low voltage i was pumping out 17-18 as soon as i got past 1800rpm's. spent all day studying wiring diagrams, everything was checking out, all the right wires to the voltage reg, battery, resistor, etc. bought a new voltage regulator, that didnt change anything. then after multiple tests with lots of voltmeters etc on the alternator, battery i noticed that my volt gauge was pulling its positive source from one of the two wires right off the voltage regulator. seemed like that probably wasnt a good idea and sure enough. snipped the extra red wire, and now the battery isnt over charging, the alternator is regulating and putting out the right amount now! also the previous owner who swapped the car over to electronic ignition replaced about 4 wires in the loom all to the color blue....nightmare for trouble shooting! and just to keep things on track with mopars, as soon as i got this problem figured out i noticed that my master cylinder is now leaking under my carpet(old carpet) so off to fixing another problem!

just kidding about fixing it.....with the new 60a alt, new ballast resister, new voltage regulator, and the volt gauge wired correctly still over charging. while driving if i stay around 2krpm it will read fine at about 14ish. as soon as im at freeway speed close to 18 with out accessories being used. ive been turning every accessory on while driving to keep it from over charging cause its my daily driver but i really need to get this fixed.

could i possible have got the wrong alternator that my voltage regulator cannot regulate. ive printed out about 3 different electrical diagrams and compared the wiring, everything looks to be wired correctly. the alternator came with one field tab, a vacant field tab, a ground tab and the battery post. because my previous alternator had two fields i removed one of those tabs and put it on the new alternator. i currently have both fields hooked up and the battery post, not using the ground.

i know its near impossible to diagnose issues through words on here but any input would help.

i did think that maybe my volt gauge was screwed up so i tested the system with a guage that i know works right, it still reads high at higher rpm.

are there different spec,d voltage regulators? could i possibly have a racing version that allows a higher out put? might be a long shot.

the new regulator cost me 46 dollars because they were out of stock on the cheap one.

 

[67Dart273]

could i possible have got the wrong alternator that my voltage regulator cannot regulate..

No, there is pretty much no such thing. I've used Chrysler regulators on Delcos, Fords, and right now, have the early (69 / earlier) style regulator on a Toyota alternator on a tractor

the alternator came with one field tab, a vacant field tab, a ground tab and the battery post. because my previous alternator had two fields i removed one of those tabs and put it on the new alternator. i currently have both fields hooked up and the battery post, not using the ground.

It's difficult to picture what you've done here, it's POSSIBLE that the regulator is not even in the circuit, that is, you have created a situation where the alternator is being "full fielded" and charging full output regardless

are there different spec,d voltage regulators? could i possibly have a racing version that allows a higher out put? .

the short answer is "no." They call them voltage regulators for a reason--they regulate voltage. All vehicle lead acid batteries are pretty much the same, and therefore require the same voltage---the target is about 13.8V, depending on which book you read


On the assumption that it's wired wrong or maybe has a wireing problem (short in the harness)

First pull off one "push on" connector AT A TIME from the alternator and confirm that it stops charging. Then pull the connector off the regulator and confirm that it stops charging.




If not there's something you must understand-----rebuilders do things. Some rebuilders take the old style "grounded field" cases and modify them to install an insulated brush in order to sell them as the newer (70/ later) "isolated field" unit. The PROBLEM with this is that some of these brush holders are CS and subject to failures I.E. grounding. What this means is, that you really have a 69/ earlier grounded field unit and the regulator won't work, and if you happen to hook the ign supply to the wrong terminal, it shorts to ground.


So to check out the above situation, pull loose BOTH field connections at the alternator AND pull the regulator connector. Now with the key on (run position), use a test lamp/ meter and see which field WIRE shows hot at the alternator. THIS IS YOUR hot feed coming from the key.

Hook ONLY this wire back onto the field, and with the key in "run" check the UNCONNECTED field terminal on the alternator. IT SHOULD show 12V or give you a "test light."

If this shows OK, make no changes to the above and start the car. IT SHOULD NOT CHARGE. If it does not, the wiring is OK so far.

Now hook up the second field wire, but LEAVE the regulator connector OFF. IT SHOULD NOT CHARGE. Shut off the engine.

IF above checks as described, temporarily probe the regulator harness connector terminals with key in "run." You should get a light or show 12V on BOTH connectors. Now temporarily DISCONNECT one field wire at the alternator. AGAIN probe the harness connector at the regulator, and now only ONE terminal should be "hot" the other dead. The hot terminal should be the one at the "top of the triangle"

OK let's say the above checks show OK NEXT thing to do is find out what else is up, so do my "always do this" tests.

The regulator MUST be operating under two conditions to "be correct" assuming the regulator is not defective----

first, the "ground" or case of the regulator MUST be at the same voltage as the battery neg. post.

second, the ign supply terminal MUST be very near to battery positive voltage, this is the so called "sense" lead as well as the supply power to the regulator / field.

To determine this, first run these tests with all accessories off, then repeat with headlights, heater on. With engine running at a good fast "low cruise" RPM,

stick one probe of your multimeter directly on the battery negative post. Stick the other probe directly onto the case of the regulator. You should read VERY low voltage, the lower the better, zero is perfect. More than about .2v (two tenths) is too much, and shows that you have a ground problem between the battery/ engine/ body/ regulator

Next, check the "hot" side. Stick one probe of your meter directly onto the battery positive post. Stick the other probe directly onto the ignition supply to the regulator. Probably the closest point is the "high" side post of the ballast. SAME AS above, you want zero is perfect, no more than .2V. Higher voltage indicates a VOLTAGE DROP in the harness somewhere. This can be a bad splice, bad connection(s) at the bulkhead connector, bad connector at the ignition switch, or even the switch itself, or the supply lead feeding the switch on the "hot" side of the switch---and back out through the bulkhead AGAIN.

ALTERNATELY you can check this by substitution. Temporarily connect a good big jumper, say, no 10 or even bigger, from one of the mounting bolts on the regulator to the battery negative terminal.

For the supply, temporarily connect a nice big no10 wire from battery positive to the "ign" terminal of the ballast---should be original blue, I think, feeds the ballast, the regulator "ign" and the second field terminal of the alternator.

Of course make sure the battery cables are in good shape, clean and tight.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between the 69/ earlier and the 70/ later circuits is the control of the field.

On 69/ earlier, the regulator FEEDS field current to the alternator field, which is grounded on one end. This field current is controlled by the regulator in order to control alternator voltage output.

On 70 / later, one end of the alternator is FED voltage from the ignition switch. The second field lead, which goes to the regulator "controls the ground" on the field circuit.

 

[BLOW-DART]

thank you 67dart273. stuck at work till sunday night but after reading all you tests about 5 times i should be able to do all these checks. i will repost with my findings.