Another 318 set up
- Thread starter Dan the man
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Think of an electric motor, unlike a gas engine an electric motor can produce torque without rpms (movement). So if an electric motor is applying torque to your tires but producing zero movement (rpms) then zero work is being done and zero hp being made and all the energy being made into heat.
It's not until the engine starts to turn, some revolutions (rpm), movement has begun, that work is now being accomplished by power watts/hp etc.., torque alone does not do anything (see above paragraph), it takes torque and rpms to accomplish the task (work) and it's this combination of torque and rpm allows us to accomplish our goals and we call this combination HP and it takes a certain amount of hp to accomplish these task.
So torque by itself can't do anything and the amount of torque to do the task with rpm can vary widely, so it not that torque isn't important, it does play an important role, it's just by itself can't do anything and the amount of it is somewhat meaningless cause you could have a 500 lbs-ft engine make a 150 hp and a 150 lbs-ft engine make 500 hp.
So bottom line hp is what you need and it's made up of some ratio of torque and rpm. There should be no hp vs torque and or hp does this and torque does that. If there any vs should be torque vs rpm do you want to build X amount of HP with higher or lower rpm with less or more torque, basically displacement vs rpm.
I think people tend to equate RPM and HP as same/similar and that above 5252 rpms is HP at work and below 5252 rpms is torque at work. Instead of it being two graphs overlaid on top of one another one is data collected (torque at rpms) and other being the engines ability (hp over rpms).
Ant
Well-Known Member
It's alright man, we are all human. Even I make mistakes on forums, if what I wrote is a little hard to pick up, it's the way I explain things sometimes.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
Who doesn't?
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
That's true. Heck, we're only human.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Again, show me ANY speed calculator that gives one **** about torque. There isn’t one because HORSEPOWER is what makes the car move and how quickly it does it.
Claiming torque is all that is nonsense.
What is amazing is people still fight about torque like it’s the end all, and there is no acceptable explanation for why they are wrong.
Ant
Well-Known Member
Dude, 273 and I chatted about it here, he made some good points that I quoted, so go read that, because I'm not in the mood now from dealing with my grandmother's basement flooding with sewer water which is why my responses are meh.
I'm tired, have goodnight.
Dan the man
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Newbomb Turk
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Ant
Well-Known Member
Oh sorry, I've been having a rough day yesterday. I was not at full mental capacity.
So... Yes you need horsepower, but you cannot make horsepower at whatever rpm without torque. Horsepower = Torque in lb-ft multiplied by RPM then divided by 5252.
Those 1/4 mile calculators can be in the ballpark sometimes, but the car setup must be perfect.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
No ****? You need RPM to calculate HP???
Seriously, you can’t be serious. No one ever says I need more torque to go faster. No one.
Just by innate osmosis people realize that horsepower is King. That’s why we want more of it.
Torque is a fools errand. Guys building for “torque” always end up with tractor engines.
Ant
Well-Known Member
To make more horsepower, you need more torque at whatever RPM range you want the power at. Engineers and engine builders who are smarter than us try to get more HORSEPOWER by getting more TORQUE in the right place in the power curve. What people are really getting mixed up is where in the RPM range most of the torque should be made, which is why some people end up with tractor engines that rev too low and others end up high revving engines that suck at low rpm daily driving and towing.
Because your beating use to death with questions looking for answers on something you yet have to obtain. As well as no clear direction.
Try getting the damn car first, then try a modification and see how it works for you.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
Your right. Sorry
True and for most street guy's were dealing in a fairly narrow rpm range idle to 5000/6000 rpms generally.
So yes more torque you can gain in this range especially in the high rpms of it the more power you'll have, but really the goal is more power.
I just seen what Newbomb Turk just asked you, his point is generally an engine powerband is considered to start around peak torque to shift point, which torque goes from peak and continuously declines as the bulk of the hp curve is climbing reaching it's peak and even after has some usable range.
So basically if torque is so important why when an engine is at it's most powerful range torque is in it's decline.
To me obviously torque is important but depending context not so much the numbers a 500 lbs-ft engine does not necessarily has more potential than a 300 lbs-ft engine but a 500 hp engine always has more potential than a 300 hp engine.
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Ant
Well-Known Member
If that is his point, the same mathematical principle still applies here. If a hypothetical engine makes 400 lb-ft of torque and 457 HP at 6000 rpm and 370 lb-ft of torque at 7000 rpm. What HP is it making at 7000 RPM? It's 493 HP. The torque number and RPM still dictates the Horsepower amount no matter where in the curve it is, that is the way the math works. Newbomb Turk should understand that.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I do get it. You don’t.
One more time so posterity can learn.
Take an engine and build it with 800 torque and 425 hp. In a 3200 pound car. How quick and fast will it go?
Now build an engine with 500 torque and 425 hp. What will it run at 3200 pounds??
Now build an engine with 500 torque and 550 hp. What will it run at 3200 pounds?
The answers prove you are wrong. But double down with bullshit and a lifetime of getting it wrong.
Horse power is king. To dispute this is stupid. Chris Alston circa 1987ish.
The Best analogy I can think to explain my point of view, is electrical so watts = hp, amps = torque and volts = rpm.
So your buying an amplifier for a stereo and to be able to reach a certain loudness , Watts how much power the amp makes would be you main concern for it’s ability for loudness, but volts would matter for how you plan on power it car or house but how many amps does it draw really don’t matter to most as long there’s enough available amps to draw from.
And you guys seemed to be most concerned about the amperage. Cause amps for any given voltage makes watts.
Say a dyno only did measure hp and rpm and no one had any idea how much torque they made, it wouldn’t really change anything cause hp and rpm is really the only info you really need.
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Ant
Well-Known Member
Did I claim that a car with way more torque will be faster than a car of the same weight with less torque and way more hp?
NO! I did not.
It seems to me that you are focusing on peak number or you think that I am, IDK. Maybe you don't understand that I get it and you just keep telling me I'm worng eventhough I have provided information that can be looked up and read about. It may also seem like that you are assuming that I think that the low hp torque monster is better for racing than the higher HP engine with some less torque, which is something that I have made no claim on. How about you read what I wrote and tell me which statement or statements I recently today got wrong and breakdown why those statements are wrong. I love learning, so enlighten me.
The **** Dan starts... 
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I didn't start anything. It's not my fault because some people will argue with a rock. Maybe you don't understand the principles of torque and horsepower yourselfThe **** Dan starts...
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