Another opinion question

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Moper, Why so high on price? As there are many guys around here that are building them for street inexpensively, one guy did one for $2600.00 him self and runs low 12s and on occasion in the 11s in good air.


BJR Racing
 
Because it's CT? I dunno.. The last 416 (the one I pictured in other posts had $1800 worth of machining. That's not typical. Lifter bushings, Pro Gram caps, and clearancing plus the usual steps.. It was a balanced kit, so that wasnt done either. A street engine version, with iron heads, will cost what I said around here. That's all new stuff except castings, new guides in the heads, new hardware, all the (IMO anyway) mandatory machining, and name brand parts. I use Comp billet timing sets, and all things Comp for valvetrain parts..locks, retainers, the MP moly fuel pump dealie, ARP bolts or studs depending, new oil pan, balancer. Good parts cost, as you well know, as does good quality machining. As an example of the polar opposite..My 440 in my Barracuda (E body) runs low 12s high 11s with 3.91 gears and full treaded Hoosier QTs. Factory 70K mile shortblock, ported 516 heads, and an MP .528 solid cam. I have $1500 tops into the entire deal, including the 1 7/8 headers and brand new Holey 4150 and Torker. The biggest difference? I wince going thru the traps at 6400 with mine..I'll gladly bounce the nicer engine off a 6800 rev limiter. All in what you feel like doing. Some dont mind it..I dont with my own stuff, but I'm sure not wasting somebody elses' money on a budget build that if it breaks, my name's on it.
 
moper said:
You were talking about an MP crate engine, which I firmly stay away from..Too many problems for me int he past. To build an iron headed 408/416, you're looking in the $4300 range. But, you could build a very strong 360 for $3500. The stroker route will lower the power peaks a bit over a 340, and a small amount over a 360. For a street car, that is the direction you want to go. You can get "ok" rods (better material, but average quality machining) for about $350, the MP crank for $300, and pistons for $500. You need different bearings, but they are only a hair more $$. Rings, oiling system, and all the machining is the same. Balancing will cost a bit more, like $100 or so (mallory metal to balance the cheap crank), and you'll need to clearance the block for the extra stroke...so it's about $300 more for a stroker, as opposed to building a 360 and reusing the rods and crank.
Click to expand...

Ok I think I'm going to change my log in name to confused. Moper I read what you said several times. It sounds like your saying that you don't think that there is that much of a hp and tq differance between building a stroker and 360 or 340. Well one that for true street use atleast. :banghead:
I was thinking if I was going to build a motor to just do it once and do it "right". Am I going about things the wrong way? Plus it sounds like everybody thinks I'd be just as happy irion heads. It doesn't matter to me what heads I run as long as the end result is what I'm looking for.
 
The overall output will be similar on each build (not exact, but similar). The longer the stroke of an engine, if all else is equal, the lower rpm peak power will be made. as an example..think of 3 engines. all identical in every detail, running stock heads, and valve sizes, cams, carbs, you name it. #A is a 340. 4.07 bore, 3.31 stroke..it's dyno'd and the power is 375hp at 5600, 370tq @ 4200. #B is a 360, 4.03 bore, 3.58 stroke..dyno'd and power is 370hp @ 5200, 395tq @ 3800. #C is a 408, 4.03 bore, 4.00 stroke..power is 380hp @ 4800, and 430tq @ 3200. These are off the top of my head, to illustrate the differences. Th big bore size will give the 340 a small boost from less shrouding, but the power peak is highest in the rpm range because the piston speed is slower until the rpms come up. The 360 has a longer stroke, but the smaller bore by a bit, so the power will be down slightly overall, but the peaks will also move down in the rpm band, because the longer stroke has a higher piston speed at the same rpm than the 340. The 408 lowers it a lot more, and makes the identical cam the 340 ran well with feel like an rv/truck cam. The piston speeds are much faster in the same rpms, so the power bands are that much lower (also a reason you see forged pistons primarilly used in 408/416s. The pistons speeds get too fast for a cast or hyper if you're really spinning it.) The 408 will pull like a freight train from idle..the 340 will need a higher stall and gears to get the best results. Make more sense? there's a lot more, it's not this simple, but at least you can get the idea.


Personally, aluminum (Read as Edelbrocks or Commandos) heads will run better on the 4" stroke than most iron heads. You'll spend some $$ to get irons to work as well, and some are better at getting numbers from them than others. The irons will work for any build, but I'd say they're better on the 340/360 deal.
 
Whats up man. Dont know if this'll be worth anything to ya but I was in a similar situation back in High School. I had a stock-as-a-rock 1970 Duster w/a 318/904/8-3/4" drivertrain. It was so slow that some dude put a whoopin' on me with his 65 Barracuda... with a slant six! That was pretty embarrasing for me, but kudos to him though! (I found out later that he had a cam, intake, carb, ported head, headers, exhaust, a 4speed, & a 3.91 sure grip in that thing LOL) Anyway, this is what I ended up with before I sold it about a year after I graduated High School in '95.

Motor:
600 cfm carb (vacum secondary)
Edlebrock Performer intake
Stock heads (rebuilt, 3 angle valve job, ported-matched to the intake manifold)
Hooker Headers (bought em used, I think they were the Comp as opposed to the Super Comp headers)
2-1/2" x-pipe (I was definitely able to tell the difference between these & an H pipe btw)
Dual 2-1/2" Flowmasters (2-chamber)
The cam was stock

Tranny
Shift kit
Replacement gearset with a lower 1st gear (this really made a difference off the line)
Mild converter that I bought used off one of my buddies that swapped over to a 4 speed gear box

Rear End
3.55 Sure Grip

Suspension
stock /6 torsion bars
90/10 front shocks (looking back, I cant beleive I used to drive around with this set up... with the stock drums no less!)
slapper bars on the back
pinion snubber


Weight Savings
'Glass fenders, hood, bumpers & deck lid
removed the a/c & heater, switched to manual steering, switched to 15" Big-N-Little Centerlines

The moral of the story? I was pretty much stomping on the 5.0s & Camaros (that didnt have any major work done) in my town. I never put it on the track but id say that with a pair of slicks im pretty sure it would have been in the high 13s/low 14s. Interestingly enough, the buddy that I bought my converter off of ended up beating me every single time from the time he swapped to the 4speed & our cars were set up EXACTLY the same up to that point. Ever since then, ive never owned a Mopar with an automatic.

Anyway, I dont know how hot of a street car you plan to have but if your thinking about going much faster than this, I suggest you use a 360 as your foundation. Besides the fact that you only have to change 1 of the motor mounts to make it fit, youll have better head & intake choices & every mod that you make will net you more power gains over the 318 because you'll be 42ci ahead of the game which is pretty signifigant.

hope this helps out!
 
BJR Racing said:
I have a set that I just put on stock rods from KB? Without machining? Did you buy the right piston? Used KBs (silvolites) for many years and never had to machine when the right part was bought.
Maybe there are doing something different? But the set that I just bought last week worked fine with stock rods.


BJR Racing
Click to expand...
I was only talking about the 408ci pistons- the regular ones use stock pistons -(from Keith Black webpage "Use Magnum rods or regular 360 rods with small end narrowed to Magnum rod width(1").")
 
Moper thanks for clearing that up for me. After reading your more indepth explanation I understand and your right there is alot more to it but I get the point you were making. However I think I'm more confused on which way I want to go with a motor now then when I started this post. Don't let me put words in your mouth but it sounds to me that if you were in my shoes you'd build a solid 360 kind of a "more bang for the buck". With the fact that 340's are impossible to find at a cheap price and the 408 is going to cost me more at the machine shop. I don't have my heart set on any particular set up I just want one that'll work. :thumblef:
 
Greazer I appreciate the comments and actually the way you had your duster set up is kind of where I'm sitting right now. The problem is theres a three guys in town running high dollar rustangs in the low 12's and they enjoy nothing better then messing with me on those hot summer nights. There actually a couple chubby fans and one rice burner in that area. I'm starting to feel like the lone mopar guy..........well actually theres a real nice GTX with a 500 stroker in it that everybody thinks would be a mid 11sec car but he never gets on it. Anyways I want to atleast be able to run with these guys becouse if I get asked one more time "Dave how's your slowpar?" my heads going to explode. :angry5:
 
Duster, I'm not telling you "what I'd do". It's not my car, or my situation. Your choice need to be about you and your budget. A smaller budget doesnt mean a cheap engine. It means you "scale back" a little. But, if the budget isnt a real issue, then you should know what does what. A good engine results from quality machining, and quality parts. Period. Whether a Nissan, Studebaker, or Dodge. Size doesnt matter (here anyway...lol), your choices do. If it's a street car, and you have the financial power, then the bigger the better. If it's a budget deal, a 360 will be less than a 340. A 318 you already own will be decent too, when prepared with the same care and attention. I know of several 318s that run very strong, and carry the 340 pie tins..lol.
 
Moper your right. I actually did alot of thinking about this and what you said reminded me alot of what the hot rods around town have always said about building motors. The problem is their all chevy guys. The way I was going to build the stroker motor was to cut corner here and there and then go back when I could. There is always more then one way to skin a cat and what I really want is the end result. I'll do some more thinking befor I make a final decion on which way I go. All I know is that it'll be in befor summer.
 
Just a reminder, If you use a magnum block and Hyd roller cam you need to run Magnum heads and oil threw the pushrods.

You could find a used 5.9L out of a ram freshen the lower end up, stuff a nice cam in it and rum the RPM Magnum heads and intake with out killing your self. Even the stock Magnum heads will flow enough for 400 horse.
 
Duster340, I agree that you should put together your own engine. I like well 'seasoned' blocks better than new cores. They have been thru a zillion thermal cycles and have relieved themselves and they arn't going to 'move-around' like a newer casting will over time. Also peak torque occurs at max VE, and that changes on every combo depending on how well the heads work. Yes all being equal, more stroke means a lower point (rpm) in the torque curve. A long arm is a good thing to have. I am in agreement with Moper, BJR, AdamR, and the others that you would be better off putting this together yourself. Even if costs were comparable...you will have better results. You can control ALL details of the build yourself...and you have all of us to lend a hand, if needed... Good luck. Terry.
 
here is some more food for thought, if the mustangs are running low 12 s , and you want to get by them , i would build a motor to push your car into the mid 11's , this in itself will steer you into the direction of one motor choice, its just my opinion but i would build the stroker motor . a lot less stress in the long run on the internal parts, this is becuase you will not have to spin the thing upwards of 7000 rpms to get into the mid 11's , a well built stroker motor will out last a hi-reving short stroke motor. but like i said its just my opinion....
either way ,it takes an 11 sec car to beat a 12 sec car
 
Adam may be on to something there too. A later model 360 (5.9L Magnum) will have provisions for a roller cam, electric fuel pump, and the Magnum heads..You also have 1.6 rockers. I'd look at that route, if I had to buy a core, I'd do that. You can always upgrade later to Commando heads. In terms of ET, what exactly do you want to run...68 makes a good point there.
 
you can get those times without a stroker, a 360 would work just fine

then you can use stock heads & yanno, NOT have to buy a stroker kit

I mean i can see why you'd wanna go stroker but for the times you're wanting it's really not necessary

i do reccomend getting a bigger stall though

and i bet BJR would sell you a 360 that'll run the times you want for as much as you're looking to spend
 
68 What you said about me needing/wanting to be in the 11's makes so much sense. Why would I want to run with them when I shoulod just want to beat them.
 
to run in the mid 11's you are going to need 475 hp at the crank, 425 at the rear wheels, asuming your car is in the 3200 lb range, you may want to rephrase your origional question ....ask for the two best versions , one stock stroke and the second a stroker, get prices for both, dont for get about converter, your 2500 isn't going to make it. you may even need 1 3/4 headers. mean while get started on the chassis, your going to have to put in frame connectors. maybe even a 6-8 point cage if your going to run the car at the track, you are leaning towards a pretty serious race car here, you can drive these on the street still ,but not as easy as a mild built stocker.
try to get the total cost of the entire project before you start, nothing worse than getting half done and running out of money, we have all been there,
do some serious chassis research at 475 hp you are goning to need a serious chassis.... good luck... and happy rustang hunting....
 
68s right on the money with needs. Also, here's something along the same lines as my earlier response. I used a calculator on another site, using 117mph (mid 11s) as the trap speed. You will need 3.91 gear with 27" tire to turn 6K rpm at the stripe. You need 4.30s to pull the 6500 rpm peak over the same distance. The longer stroke allows you to run less gear, and less rpm, while getting the same result. Just a thought..You will defiantely need a convertor, and connectors..you my be able to scoot by without the cage..unless it goes quicker than 11.50.
 
68 Your right about the frame conectors thats a must. However I didn't know you needed a cage at 11.5.....Must be becouse I've never driven that fast. Also do you think I'd need to worry about my tranny overheating with a 3500 stall? Unfortenutly your right about the money. Nothing would get me more upset then getting it close to being done and running out of cash. Thanks for the good advice. Talking with noligable people befor I start my build could save me alot in the long run. :thumblef:
 
Ok 68 sujested it so I'll ask. What combination would you put together to go 11.5 in both a stock stroke and a stroker motor in a 3200 pound car?????????
 
here's the list BJR gave me for low 11's in my 3300 pound scamp with a 360

750cfm holley carb 3310c

w2 intake

mopar performance p4120653 purple camshaft

3500 rpm stall converter

mopar performance orange box ignition - change balance resistor & coil, excel super coil
1 ohm balance resistor

dynomax headers 1 5/8

dynomax mufflers bullet race 2 1/2 exhaust

587 heads 188 valve heads gasket matched clean/open bowls, 1.50 diameter valce springs 130 on seat 320-340 open. machine guide pads for inner spring

kb 105 hypereutetic pistons

superstock leaf springs

long shocks

rebuilt 904 valve body
5-0 lever
kevlar bands & clutches
remachine rear & front drum for extra clutch

3.91 gear

that's everything you need. Haven't done it yet, but i'm workin on it
 
at 11 .50 you dont need a roll bar ...at 11.49 you do, but thats just the tech at the track, a well installed rollbar (8 pt or more} well thought out , will do more than just pass tech. it will do as much as the frame connectors will , in the upper half of your car.. ( it will take the stress out of the roof ) less stress equates to less flex....which in turn means more of your precious horsepower going to the ground.. this is easy to invision ....how many cars have you seen pick only the left tront wheel ? ..... yea its neat...but it shows the body twisting all to h-ll ... proof that the body is sucking HP up before it even gets to the rear whels.... besides that a rolldar may even save your life some day.....
 
Duster1973 said:
Ok 68 sujested it so I'll ask. What combination would you put together to go 11.5 in both a stock stroke and a stroker motor in a 3200 pound car?????????
Click to expand...

stock 3.58 stroke 4.03 bore (360 core) 366": stock crank, factory rods w/ARP bolts, Edelbrock RPM Magnum heads, KB232 pistons w/ the quench pad removed. Several solid lifter cams could be used..depends on the rest of the combo. Something like a XS274S Comp, RPM Air gap and 750 4150. roughly $4K for the long block with oil pan and intake.
Stroker 4" stroke, 4.07 bore (340 core) 416": MP crank, eagle SIR rods, Diamond forged flat top pistons, Edelbrock RPM (63cc) LA heads, Solid cam with longer duration, high 500s lift like the XTQ281S-6 Comp, or for a killer torque engine, the Comp hydraulic XE295HL would be cool, and no valve adjustments...I'd run the MP single plane on this one, and an Holley 4150 850cfm. Roughly $5K for that long block like above. I'd also stud the mains on the 416. The larger bore really helps to stop any shrouding of the valves, but the 360 core could be used making a 408".

either one could run mid 11s with the proper other stuff, the 416 could go much faster, but will run mid 11s with a street gear, and lower stall speed convertor. In either case, I'd run a modified 904 trans, not the 727.
 
68 yes I have seen the one wheel pull up on other cars and always wonderd why it did that. Thanks I'll have to put the roll cage on the future upgrades list on my car sounds like something that I'll need/want on the car.

Greezer and Moper thanks for the sujestions. Sounds like I should have asked that question first. :thumblef:
 
wiat until you start breaking windsheilds..lol. My E body twisted so bad the factory slap stick would upshift itself..lol(rev pattern valve body) I went 13.1 @ 107 starting in 2nd because of that...figured out I dont like powerglides either..
 
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