Any fabo members up in Seattle or near by ?

-
Ken Imthurn said:
The main problem is the oil we use today. I had a small block we ran in a dragster with solid tappet flat tappet cam with EDM lifters and because he did not use Zinc additive in the race oil the cam was gone in 50 passes. The oil advertised having zinc, but not enough. The cam was broken in on my run stand and all the cam break in procedures were followed. Plus what you are giving up in performance it does not make sense to use a flat tappet cam in today's world. I do almost all stroker motors both big block and small block MOPAR and I do not use flat tappet cams.
The reason they are telling it will run on pump gas the cam is bleeding off compression pressure in the cylinder because the duration at.050. The motor under 3000 will be slow, but above that it will come alive. This purely a race cam. With the converter you stated that it will work with that cam so it will idle at about 1200 RPM at a stop light. Now the downside you will need to get the biggest trans cooler you can find because it will never lockup under 4000 rpm and it will generate a ton of heat. This because it will be always slipping. Been down this road before.
I used FELPRO gaskets for 30 years mostly because there was nothing else and after some time I would see the same failures between the cylinders. For the last 8 years I have used Cometic multi layer gaskets and have never had a failure. In one instance do to a internal oil leak I reused the gasket 4 times and it lived the entire race season.
You did not state what you are using for ignition, carb, fuel system, rear gear, rear tire size. Are you installing a trans brake? How much time on the track or on the street. These are some other items to consider when working out a combination for the car. Exactly what do you want the car to do and will this combination you have so far get you there.
Oh by the way my 340 is actually 430 inches in a '70 block.
Click to expand...
So at what point does cubic inches start negating duration. I know there's different power ranges, so for a 440 my cam was 3300-7200, what is 30 cubes worth for adjusting the power range. I've been trying to figure this one out for a year or so.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
So at what point does cubic inches start negating duration. I know there's different power ranges, so for a 440 my cam was 3300-7200, what is 30 cubes worth for adjusting the power range. I've been trying to figure this one out for a year or so.
Click to expand...
it was my understanding that the length of the stroke starts heating up duration as opposed to cubic inches. But it's an inheritance that the bigger the stroke the bigger the cubic inches...
 
j par said:
it was my understanding that the length of the stroke starts heating up duration as opposed to cubic inches. But it's an inheritance that the bigger the stroke the bigger the cubic inches...
Click to expand...
Is there some formula ?
 
30 cubic inches isn't going to change much. When we get up over 500 inches start to change, but not as much as you would think. I have found on the 572 inch stuff i can get away with about 15 - 20 degrees of more duration at .050. But it depends on whether it is auto or manual. Manual we can get away with more, but with auto it depends on the automatic. Now with the newer overdrive trans and lock up converters we can get away with it like a manual. But that is not usually available for Mopar. Now most of the engines over 525 I have built have been race motors so we were looking at power levels at the end of the quarter mile and how much torque off the starting line. More duration at .050 less torque on the bottom, higher operation range.
With most street use converters are usually rated at under 3000 rpm. On engines under 500 inches I do not like more than 230 - 235 degrees at .050 with a installed centerline of 108 on a 110 ground cam with a carburetor. Fuel injection is different because of a wider lobe center.
Like I asked in the thread before there is a lot more info that would be needed to come up with the proper combination. I usually set down and get everything else figured out and then I try and find the cam I need or have one ground for a particular combination. For instance my street car is a 72 Challenger I have had since 78. When I rebuilt the car I stroked the motor to 416 inches with a extremely light rotating assy. I rebuilt the stock converter and figured out tire and gear and what RPM that i wanted to go down the freeway. I had a solid roller cam ground to my spec. On the chassis dyno it made 410 hp and 485 ft pounds of torque. It idles at 850 at the stop light and is very drivable on the road. Now it peek HP at 5800 and torque at 4500. For street car it will spin the tires in any gear (P295R50 -16) at anytime I want. But is a street car that weighs 3600 lbs. When cars are that heavy you need torque to move them.
The reason I was commenting is I see people all the time spend a lot of money on a engine or something else and find it doesn't perform any better than it did if they had done something simple. As I was reading your thread you were concentrating on the cam, but there is a lot of other things that need to be looked at before deciding on a camshaft. The guys selling the cams should have been asking the same questions that I am.
As far as Pennzoil, if you have ever torn apart an engine that has run Pennzoil and one that has run on Castrol or Valvoline VR1 you would see why I do not run Pennzoil. They have the same Zinc issue as everybody else. Pollution controlled engine oils cannot have Zinc in the oil do to it kills the catalytic converters.
 
Look at this way. On my small blocks I am up 90 cubic inches, but the duration on the cam for street use will stay about the same. I have gone 3.31" to 4.125" stroke and the duration at .050 maybe go up from 228 to 232. The factor that will be the same is the top end(heads,intake,carb) If you go really big ported heads to make the motor work, you loose port velocity and the motor is a dog under 3000 rpm. This all comes back to how every component works together.
 
Ken Imthurn said:
30 cubic inches isn't going to change much. When we get up over 500 inches start to change, but not as much as you would think. I have found on the 572 inch stuff i can get away with about 15 - 20 degrees of more duration at .050. But it depends on whether it is auto or manual. Manual we can get away with more, but with auto it depends on the automatic. Now with the newer overdrive trans and lock up converters we can get away with it like a manual. But that is not usually available for Mopar. Now most of the engines over 525 I have built have been race motors so we were looking at power levels at the end of the quarter mile and how much torque off the starting line. More duration at .050 less torque on the bottom, higher operation range.
With most street use converters are usually rated at under 3000 rpm. On engines under 500 inches I do not like more than 230 - 235 degrees at .050 with a installed centerline of 108 on a 110 ground cam with a carburetor. Fuel injection is different because of a wider lobe center.
Like I asked in the thread before there is a lot more info that would be needed to come up with the proper combination. I usually set down and get everything else figured out and then I try and find the cam I need or have one ground for a particular combination. For instance my street car is a 72 Challenger I have had since 78. When I rebuilt the car I stroked the motor to 416 inches with a extremely light rotating assy. I rebuilt the stock converter and figured out tire and gear and what RPM that i wanted to go down the freeway. I had a solid roller cam ground to my spec. On the chassis dyno it made 410 hp and 485 ft pounds of torque. It idles at 850 at the stop light and is very drivable on the road. Now it peek HP at 5800 and torque at 4500. For street car it will spin the tires in any gear (P295R50 -16) at anytime I want. But is a street car that weighs 3600 lbs. When cars are that heavy you need torque to move them.
The reason I was commenting is I see people all the time spend a lot of money on a engine or something else and find it doesn't perform any better than it did if they had done something simple. As I was reading your thread you were concentrating on the cam, but there is a lot of other things that need to be looked at before deciding on a camshaft. The guys selling the cams should have been asking the same questions that I am.
As far as Pennzoil, if you have ever torn apart an engine that has run Pennzoil and one that has run on Castrol or Valvoline VR1 you would see why I do not run Pennzoil. They have the same Zinc issue as everybody else. Pollution controlled engine oils cannot have Zinc in the oil do to it kills the catalytic converters.
Click to expand...
Besides the roller cam stuff (which I can't afford to rebuy all that stuff now) what would you think is an optimal cam ? 246
Compression ratio, I've used calculators & basic advertised numbers from manufacturers. So I still need to measure all the cc's of my heads, piston valve notches,. The last calculation I just did had some extra measurements involved so with my #s it came to 11.25, I've read a bunch of people on fabo who swear they run higher & have 0 problems .
Quench or those things is that something thats needed or is a .050 MLS gasket fine which will put my compression down into the high 10 scr.
Dcr the calculations are 8.65 & 188 psi with what I have.
I based my build off of Andy finkbeiners, he has some far superior parts like the solid rollers, great oiling system. I went a few steps lower on the cam duration & also the trickflow 240 ad for their 440 build they were 10.5 with a [email protected], smaller bore & stock stroke. I'd like to offer you breakfast & coffee one of these weekends to bs about this if you're up for it ? I'm down in West Seattle & will come out to you.
 
Ken Imthurn said:
Look at this way. On my small blocks I am up 90 cubic inches, but the duration on the cam for street use will stay about the same. I have gone 3.31" to 4.125" stroke and the duration at .050 maybe go up from 228 to 232. The factor that will be the same is the top end(heads,intake,carb) If you go really big ported heads to make the motor work, you loose port velocity and the motor is a dog under 3000 rpm. This all comes back to how every component works together.
Click to expand...
also does it make a difference since I'm starting off with a 400 block & think of it as 70 more cubes or since there's already a 440 motor it's only 30 more ?
 
I would be more than happy to meet with you. I am just off the I-5/ 405 interchange in the north end. I have a shop at my house, so if your interested we can get together. I happen to like the 400 blocks better. I built my son a 400 with a 4.150 Molnar crank. It worked out to be 512 with a a roller cam makes over 600lbs of torque to move his Charger and idles at 850 rpm. Send me your phone number and we will talk.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
I'll be out doing some work for a few hours till about 3 30 so anytime after that. Thanks Ken !
Click to expand...
Don't post your name and phone number up on an open forum.. just press on his picture and send a personal message...
 
Last edited:
It's just @318willrun and I having our normal internet wiseguy discussion... According to the Wallace calculator he has over optimized his car and I have under optimized mine...
 
j par said:
Could be because it's true... I mean there's someone always faster so no sense in trying to make claims like that....
Click to expand...
Well I have the title for slowest stroker on this thread since it's in peices still. But I tell ya, I can not wait for the first time I fire this thing up.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
Well I have the title for slowest stroker on this thread since it's in peices still. But I tell ya, I can not wait for the first time I fire this thing up.
Click to expand...
I've had mine for 5 years now and have not regretted one dime I've spent on it. It feels great and is quite a bit of fun...
 
Also there's dozens of guys in the building their engine stage and some of its doing it for many years so you're doing just fine...
 
j par said:
Also there's dozens of guys in the building their engine stage and some of its doing it for many years so you're doing just fine...
Click to expand...
Yeah, for some funs sake I basically have most of a 451 sitting here also, another 400, 2- 440s & a 383. This is just 2 years of indecision.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
Yeah, for some funs sake I basically have most of a 451 sitting here also, another 400, 2- 440s & a 383. This is just 2 years of indecision.
Click to expand...
I would say at least 50% of my customers are the same thing. They collect parts and collect Parts but never get anything put together...
 
j par said:
It's just @318willrun and I having our normal internet wiseguy discussion... According to the Wallace calculator he has over optimized his car and I have under optimized mine...
Click to expand...
I didn't read through the whole thread, but I don't use Wallace calculator very often. Long before there was a internet, people were dividing the 1320 by their MPH to see potential and to see how efficient their cars worked.
 
j par said:
I would say at least 50% of my customers are the same thing. They collect parts and collect Parts but never get anything put together...
Click to expand...
I need to keep my other 400 block in case the machine shop says it's not going to be a good candidate. But selling off most of that weight should be my focus asap. Things don't sell very quick on Craigslist up here in Seattle. Most of the guys on Craigslist are hoarder parts dealer guys. But I suppose it won't hurt to post the stuff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top