Are you a purist?

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rmchrgr

rmchrgr

Skate And Destroy
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Over the last few years, there have been lots of discussions/topics/threads about modern parts in older cars. A lot of guys are into this type of deal for various reasons - maybe they're after 'modern car' drivabiity and/or performance, 'updated' looks/style and 'convenience', whatever that may entail to someone.

I suppose this is all fine and good and I'm all for new ideas and such. But, there is something about some of this newer stuff that just doesn't jibe with me. Its mostly aesthetics - modern wheels and tires, seats, stereos and whatever else look out of place in an older car, at least to me.

I guess I would call myself a purist in that regard. I'm drawn to older cars because of they way they look, sound and feel. To that end, I'm OK with whatever 'warts' they have and even expect it when it comes down to it. It's part of the charm of these things I suppose. Why would I want to change that?

There's also the idea that drag racing was the prime mover behind modifications 40 and 50 years ago. You have to think that muscle car buyers would have typically favored that type of racing over road course type stuff. The cars were marketed that way. Road racing was 'sports car' territory (read=snooty or Corvette) and drag racing was for the regular dudes. Sure, I can appreciate the T/A cars and the Shelbys of that time but I'll always look to drag racing as a performance yard stick and not road racing.

It's true that technology has 'progressed' by leaps and bounds since the muscle car days. in 2013, many people seem to think that is something to aspire to. Businesses base their entire model on this premise and there's a thriving, billion dollar industry that also revolves around this notion as well.

Just off the top of my head I can name some major automotive systems that have seen a a paradigm shift - fuel delivery and injection over carbs, brake systems, electronics, creature comforts, safety and on and on.

Up until recently, I was a dealer tech at a Jeep/Chrysler/Hyundai store. It was rare that anything older than 10 years old came in, mostly because of warranty and such but every once in a while, they would roll in. When I did get to work on the older cars, I was always aware of the leaps in technology even from the late 90s to now. Those leaps are almost as large as they were from the 70s. This stuff advances so quickly now, it's hard to keep up with it.

But to what end? I mean, are we into cars because of what they 'could be' if we install all this newer technology and parts or because they provide a certain feeling on their own? What draws you to older cars if not an overall sense that they are from another time and have a certain charm, likely because of all the outdated technology?

So from this climate springs the aftermarket and all the ideas that people come up with to update our older cars. I guess its fine in a sense but really, where does it end? I see a trend happening where the only thing original to the car is the body. Everything from stem to stern has been replaced with something new. At that point is it still an old car?

I will admit that I am someone who buys 'updated' parts or as I like to call them, better mousetraps. I have some parts like that on my own car. A/F gauge, aluminum calipers and master cylinder etc. For me though, I try to find/choose things that keeps the original essence of the car in tact and does not change the outward appearance, sound or attitude of it.

There's a long list of parts and or modifications that don't really do much for me. I can rationalize why they don't but it's always subjective. You got your view, I got mine, that's what makes the world go 'round and what sells parts.

I guess I just want to hear from others out there that think like me - are you an essentialist/purist? Are you a believer in the 'charms' of older cars and the inherent flaws/charm that come with them?

Or do you like big wheels and brakes, modern seats, late-model paint and such? Do you buy into whatever new technology you can for your older car or do you choose stuff to better the original platform?

Just thinking out loud here and trying to stimulate a serious conversation. Hope this does not devolve into a pissing contest about what's better. I'm looking for why you personally favor one thing over another and what exactly it does for you. Whether you bought it just cause it was the latest thing or you researched and talked to people with a similar combo and took a shot believing it could work.

Or maybe there's another scenario that I haven't considered.

Thanks for your input!

- Greg
 
For me it depends. If a car is factory original and special ( GTS, Formula S) I would not want to see it get changed at all. Now my dart that was originally a 6 cylinder granny car I would have no problem doing what ever I want to it. But no matter what I can NOT get into the big wheels and tires that are popular right now. JMO
 
I like some of the current upgrades. but leave the paint and graphics nostalgic. One of the coolest cars I have seen on here is the silver Duster with the Mopar Missile ghosted on the sides. This is a flash of the past but still retro.

I am restoring a Duster. If I get the money it will get upgraded suspension and fuel injection. I am a purist but to a point.

Don't stand next to your all original car with your arms crossed over your chest at a show and think your cool because you had the money to buy it or build it the way it was.
No matter how its done make it your own. That's Pure to me.
 
1968dartman said:
For me it depends. If a car is factory original and special ( GTS, Formula S) I would not want to see it get changed at all. Now my dart that was originally a 6 cylinder granny car I would have no problem doing what ever I want to it. But no matter what I can NOT get into the big wheels and tires that are popular right now. JMO
Click to expand...
I`m trying to keep the nostalgia look, but bringing the dinosaur into the 21st century. big horse power(old school). disc brakes front-rear, 15" wheels. 99%of the new larger wheels just plain suck, and look terrible on mucsle cars. If I could sell my new dragstars, I would go to the old gasser front wheels, and some stock alum. roadwheels -if I could get them widened to my specs. like I said -- well said.-------bob:cheers:
 
This is one of those things I end up on both sides of the fence on.

I'm not an electronics guy. That's why I daily drive a '72 Challenger. No computers, no ECU's, no television screens, and if I talk to my car it doesn't say anything back to me. If something goes wrong, it comes down to air, fuel or spark, and not a sensor or a computer. That's how I like it. So while I understand that fuel injection and some of the new whiz bang stuff can make things more efficient, I keep it off my cars. All the new Hemi's are great, but its pretty much impossible to make them run without a whole lot of computer stuff. And I just like how the old engines sound, smell, and drive.

But, from a chassis and suspension standpoint, I'm very much on the more modern side of things. I'm not a drag racer. I grew up around old British sports cars, and I like things to handle. But I also like to keep things simple. So, my cars all have (or will have) big torsion bars, welded K frames, frame connectors, torque boxes, etc. And modern shocks, and bigger brakes. And yes, bigger rims. My Challenger runs 17's, and I have 275/40/17 tires on all four corners. Normally, I would say that's as big as I'd go for a rim. On E and B bodies, that works because the tie rod interference issue only comes in at about the maximum backspace possible anyway. But my Duster will have 18's, because A bodies need more backspace to run the tires I want than I can get before I hit the tie rod. And I'm not at all opposed to the larger rims. I can't say I'd ever go bigger than 18", because after that you don't have enough sidewall to keep things practical (and I'm sure some would disagree with me even there). But to get decent handling street tires, you can't run 15's. They just don't make good handling street tires in the sizes needed anymore. Sure, there's still DOT spec race stuff, but that doesn't work on the street for any length of time.

I try to keep things to the "essence" of the original car. No coil overs, no air ride (more electronics anyway!), just bigger torsion bars, better shocks, 11.75" mopar rotors (except the Duster), same old leaf spring suspension out back, big sway bars, etc. And bigger rims with MUCH bigger tires, set as low as I can go before I hit every speed bump in town. And none of my cars are anything special. They're all just plain jane grocery getters for the most part, 318/904 cars at best, that's all I can afford. The GT's are a little special, but honestly they aren't worth a ton more. And the modifications I do to the GT cars will all be reversible, more so than the Duster or Challenger.

I think the modernization of these classics is a good thing. Not everyone will do it, there's still all the factory specials out there that will stay original because that's how they're worth the most money. There's more than enough purists that want original hemi cars, or T/A's or R/T's etc to keep those cars bone stock original. But dropping a modern hemi and updated suspension into a plain Jane car allows another group of people to enjoy them. Folks that don't like how old musclecars handle or want something reliable and efficient. And as these cars get updated, they stay on the road. And appeal to a new generation of owners. So, from that standpoint, I think its a GREAT thing. The more of them on the road the better. And if the pendulum swings back to more original stuff later, I'm sure you'll see some of these updated cars being switched back. But at least they're still around and taken care of.
 
I really dislike old mopars with modern wheels, motors, interiors. I think if they want a new car they should go out & buy one. They should leave the old mopars alone
 
Not talking about modifying numbers matching, paint mark cars or survivors. This is about street machines, day 2 cars, projects and such. Dedicated race cars don't really fall into this category because they are generally purpose built.

Basically just wondering if these days guys are more into the modern G machine/Pro Touring big wheel and brake thing or the old school drag-oriented look of the muscle car days. The G Machine style always makes me think of import tuner cars. :sad3:

I like the drag-oriented stuff myself and that's how I am building my car.

I would however like to build a daily driver street car. It would handle to the extent that it would do what it was designed to do but no way would I put anything over a 15" wheel on it. I might run EFI but that's under the hood. I wouldn't put bolstered seats in it, hack up the dash for a stereo or cut up a floor to put a modern OD trans in it. My point is once you start getting into that type of surgery, you're altering the DNA of the car.

You could view the drag race influence in the same way. For example, I never liked pro street cars - why put a full cage and 14" wide tires on a car if you're just going to putt around in it? That whole thing was just silly.

For me though the drag race influence is more period correct than the road course stuff if you look it it like that. A lot of the muscle car advertising of the day was geared toward 1/4 mile performance and the whole aftermarket of the time was drag race oriented. Things evolve of course.

I just feel like the essential core or DNA I am referring to is sacred. Perhaps we should be aware of it disappearing if we continue to trend towards a more modern ideal just for the sake of doing so.
 
Let me start out by saying that what follows is my own personal opinion. I understand that others have different opinions and goals for their car and I respect everyone's views. We're all saving classic Mopars from the crusher in our own way and that's what's important.

I'm trying to stay fairly close to original on my restoration.

That said, I have helped myself to a few factory upgrades that could have been ordered on the car when new, such as factory disc brakes, a factory 4 bbl setup, and a sure grip. The previous owner added power steering too.

Then there are a few concessions to modern technology. I upgraded the distributor and ignition to an HEI setup. Other than the little chrome box on the back of the distributor, it looks stock. I'm also seriously considering a later model transmission with a lockup converter. But as much as I would love an overdrive, I will not cut the cross member or floor to make one fit.

Finally, I'll have the factory AM radio in the dash and working through the original center mounted speaker, but I'll also have a modern 4 speaker stereo hidden from view.

That's the extent of my deviations from factory. The car will otherwise be stock. And all my deviations from stock can be undone by bolting the original parts back onto the car.

My feeling is this. If you want a car that's faster, or more efficient, or stops better, or is safer, or whatever, you can pickup any number of used cars that will do all those things better and cost less.

You could spend a small fortune building a modern pro-touring A-body, but 20 years from now, it won't be the latest technology anymore and it will go down in value. On the other hand, if you restore your A-body to original, 20 years from now, it will still be original, but it will be more rare and it will have gone up in value.
 
When it comes to throwing a 440 into a slant six or 318 car, no I am not a purist. When it comes to a factory performance car I am more of a purist. I think that real factory performance cars should be kept at or close to their original design.
 
I stay to the side of originality, mostly because I like my cars the way they came and I like to be able to swap parts out with original equipment.

That said, I understand why people like to change to modern items, and since it is their car they can do whatever they like! I like some cars with modern wheels and airbag suspensions, especially larger cars and older cars! Heck, there's a really badazz Lincoln Continental near me with airbags and big wheels that rocks!!

As that great philosopher and thinker of thoughts The Burger King once said..."have it your way"!!! Geof
 
I kinda feel like modernizing an old car is a way to compensate for lack of driving skills. if you drive an old car with drums then you need to treat it like an old car with drums. too often people get in trouble by driving an old car same as you would a modern econo-box that can stop on a dime.

its an old guzzler that has limitations, so treat it as such.

I drive them all, to me it makes no difference if a car is a 1 of 10 cuda or a 1 of 249,000 duster, they were all made to drive and that's what im about and I run what I brung, if it has slanty drums then so be it. I have done a few big block swaps but when I do I tend to use all dated factory parts and the result looks "as if the factory did it" not sure how much that bends the purist idea.

factory upgrades are ok, I like electronic ignition but I use all factory parts, and in the case of early A guys I see how factory upgrades are necessary to prevent the car from spontaneously combusting on the highway from the really chintzy parts that the factory put in place. That is why I think the later cars that never get any recognition deserve it, the factory really improved all the cars after 73 with better and bigger suspension parts and so on.
 
At car shows I love to check out really original cars as well as highly modified - but to own and drive myself I have always preferred mildly modified muscle cars with period modifications.

I really dont get the modern engine in classic muscle car thing though.

I guess I like the sort of cars you would have seen on the streets back in the seventies...... without the flared guards and funky paintjobs :)
 
My personal preference is older cars.... I hate working on a lot of the newer stuff (ok, most if not all of the newer stuff). We have a 93 Geo Metro (in my wifes name.. actually my daughter's car) that gets 45+ mpg on the freeway.. I'll never get that with my barracuda but I really don't care! My Barracuda is the newest care in my name! As far as upgrades, I put disc brakes on it, (from a 75 Dart) not neccessarily because I didn't want an aftermarket kit, but because it was simple and inexpensive to swap over using other mopar parts. Same with the 440 I'm planning on putting in.... I am another one that has no use for the real big rims and super short profile tires, I like the older look and have not really seen any newer oversize rims I like on older muscle cars...... but, to each his own...

AS far as other upgrades, fuel injection, computers... I like simple... but sure would like to get better than 10mpg! (that is a tuning issue I'm sure and that is all my fault)
 
Build it the way you ant it and drive the hell out of it.
 
Well..since you asked....

Depends on the car. Often as long as the drivetrain is Chrysler it's all good. Nothing wrong with a Ford rear or Gm alternator or anything that simplifies something. I much prefer old school builds that have the '70s look.

I cannot stand a Chevy or whatever engine that isn't Mopar in a Mopar. Hate on me all you want. I don't care. If you are going to put a GM engine in a Mopar, just buy a Chevy. Mopar engines are part of what makes a Mopar cool.

It's funny how that people say if you put a Chevy or LS1 in a Mopar that' it is the greatest thing ever but if you do the opposite, you ruined whatever it's in.

So I believe in mods in an old school sense because that is what people did to cars back in the day. Chevy engine in a Mopar is epic fail. Hey...you asked lol

Due to the way people drive now, better suspension and brakes are a great thing. I'm a believer in electronic ignition as well.
 
I gravitate towards Drag Racing or Pro'Street style cars and that's what I'm doing with my Dart as far as how it looks.Will keep it pretty much stock in the drive train department. I like to see cars that are totally correct but if that's all that there is to look at I would get bored pretty quick.To each his own and I will never criticize someone on their car style.
 
I would change to coil over front suspension and lose the torsion bars. That would change the nighmare of the left side (starter/torsion bars). The rear suspension is fine for me. My 67 A fine except the car is a nightmare to remove the oil pan or adjust the second gear band. My car has a 360/w2 heads & TTI 1 7/8" headers. Since I like a fast comfortable toy, it has power steering. Everthing fits but is a nighmare to install the left header. Maybe if I did not like to play with it, it would not be an issure. I have all kind of ideas to improve the power while keeping it's good manners. Age and money stops me, so don't get old and unless you have a big bank roll keep working. Money is essentail to hot rodding!
 
... they were special cars as they were built.
having said that,drum brakes, oozy undersprung suspensions,poor tires etc are just
not safe on some of our roads today.
so...improve these areas while leaving them original or maybe 'day two in appearance
would be my choice
..those new Hemis are odd looking things!
 
Purist I am not lol. I can appreciate it, but its not me. Although I do cringe when I see a 340 car that's been cut up to be drag raced. But whatever. It ain't my car. Who am I to judge? My current daily driver is the swinger in my avatar. Year around its pulled out of the garage, and takes my happy *** to work. And it does it well. It ain't stock by a long shot. Efi, overdrive, air conditioning, power steering, power brakes, hid headlights, led tail lights, custom paint, 18" wheels, custom dash and console, srt4 seats..... the list goes on. I built it this time around to be used and ENJOYABLE at the same time, even for trips 900 miles in one shot. I've had darts with manual drums, no overdrive, stock uncomfortable seats yada yada yada. Driven them and enjoyed them for what they were. Nothing I would ever want to drive daily, let alone take on a long trip. No thank you. You like to do that?? More power to ya! My dart is a muti purpose vehicle. Daily driver, long hauls, car shows, good mileage, usability, and durability. Yea it has efi. Cracks me up that people are scared of efi. Hard to fix. Not really. Actually a lot easier than rebuilding a carburetor. Just need to have a little bit of knowhow. Dads got an injected 6.1 hemi in his demon. Just built a 70 swinger with all 06 charger drivetrain and interior. Again, I am not a purist by a long shot, but I do have a respect for originality. Hell I'm putting together a almost bone stock bare bones Panther Pink 70 dart! Carburetor and all lol.
 
Between 2002-2009, my daily drivers were a '65 Valiant 2 door post, Slant manual/delete everything and a '72 Dodge W100 4x4 with a 360/NP 435 manual trans, drum brakes all around. This was in NYC.

Converted the Valiant to electronic ignition, rebuilt the suspension and converted to disc brakes using all factory type stuff. After those things it was like a new car, night and day. Didn't change anything else and it did what I wanted it to do. It handled great, better than some newer cars I've had. My wife and I took it on plenty of long trips up and down the east coast, never had a problem with it.

When I think back, an OD would have been good in the truck, like an NV 3500. Probably would have bolted right in. A/C woulda been nice too. I lived without though and I loved it.

I miss those vehicles, especially the truck.
 
I believe in keeping with the essence of the car. I am a purist to a point, where do I draw the line - modifications that can not be reversed. Changing the cam, intake, carb, gears etc i'm good with this stuff all day.
 
my scamp ain't changed a bit since the 80's, outside the engine, went from the 318 to a 360, but it still has the headers, thermoquad, and air shocks that was on it when I got it, well I did replace the g 60's with 275-60's bfg's.
 
I prefer stock style /day two improvements,for my answers . I am a stock/low buck kind of guy. I simply want a late sixties/early seventies street machine,street race vibe. My thing is,improvements are cool. The investment is personal. (And the investment,of hard work and soul)....
 
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