Bell Never Aligned

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Kern Dog said:
I've seen cars with automatics crack several flexplates over time.
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Not sure why, but I changed a crack flex plate on my 340/727, in my van twenty years ago, with another stock flex plate and it has never cracked again (pulled the motor out last year and it was fine). Parts just fail sometimes. Never had to use off - set dowl pins, but if I were to have a vibration, that would be something to look at, just after a motor or transmission swap. Input shaft bushings or rollers are cheap, change them if not sure of its history. I have seen some ruff input shafts also, clean them up if possible before installation into the crank.
 
I've seen plenty of TF's with one side of the converter/pump bushing worn through and a groove worn in the nose, usually the pump housing and reaction shaft were junk too. A fair number of them didn't make it 20,000 miles. The factory rep would usually OK replacing the case on the hope the error was on the transmission side of things. It's a lot more difficult checking for concentricity of a trans case than it is with a bell, and the rep never asked me to check one. I have no way of knowing how many of those failed again in the same way at a later date.
 
Bellhousing alignment is a critical item. There is a section in the factory service manuals just on this item. Now some history on alignments. On both automatics and manual shift trans the factory spec is .007" total runout. The reason this should be checked is every time a block is lined honed the crank line is moved approximately .004 to .006 " to get everything straight. What this does is moves the crank centerline farther up in the block. Now I have been doing this check for over 30 years. It started for me trying to get a front seal leaking trans fluid. I have done them in the car and on the bench when building new motors. Probably 75% of the engines I have done needed the offset dowels. I have even had brand new aftermarket blocks that did not meet the spec. That goes for all 3 Chrysler, Chev and Ford. Every motor that I build the first thing I do is when the crank is in it I bolt a bell housing on it and check. The factory service manual give detailed instructions on doing this procedure. The factory makes offset dowels on .007, .014, and .021. Now these offset dowels are also in the aftermarket and I personally use ones made in Nevada.
 
I8NEMO said:
My fit up on this build has expanded to actually driving the car a bit before final tear down. Actually driving the car before tear down wasn't always the plan so when I took on the 8 Barrel Hood idea, the 340 went in the car along with the A833 for support reasons only. I used my factory bell housing off the old 318 and, in complete ignorance of BH alignment, relied on the dowels and away I went. Then I decided to run the new motor so trans came back, in went the flywheel. No clutch, no pilot bushing. Now FF to today, clutch on the way, correct .915 bushing on the way. After reading many posts here I feel I have 0 chance of the tranny fitting up with a clutch and bushing because I didn't align the BH. What percentage would you give me?
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This is not answering the op's question and I hope I'm not hijacking this post. But...if the BH alignment was off, we would remove the dowels, align the housing and drill and ream for oversized dowels. This was on big Cummins powered trucks, never tried small block.
 
Ken Imthurn said:
Bellhousing alignment is a critical item. There is a section in the factory service manuals just on this item. Now some history on alignments. On both automatics and manual shift trans the factory spec is .007" total runout. The reason this should be checked is every time a block is lined honed the crank line is moved approximately .004 to .006 " to get everything straight. What this does is moves the crank centerline farther up in the block. Now I have been doing this check for over 30 years. It started for me trying to get a front seal leaking trans fluid. I have done them in the car and on the bench when building new motors. Probably 75% of the engines I have done needed the offset dowels. I have even had brand new aftermarket blocks that did not meet the spec. That goes for all 3 Chrysler, Chev and Ford. Every motor that I build the first thing I do is when the crank is in it I bolt a bell housing on it and check. The factory service manual give detailed instructions on doing this procedure. The factory makes offset dowels on .007, .014, and .021. Now these offset dowels are also in the aftermarket and I personally use ones made in Nevada.
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I agree on the importance of verifying the bell housing bore to the crankshaft centerline when rebuilding an engine, especially if the crankcase has been along bored.
Two questions:
1) I have seen it stated that verifying that the rear face of the case is flat with respect to the crank flange is just as important.
2) Has anyone ever found off set dowels in a block that they know with certainty was never torn down since it was factory built?
 
I would not put anything together unless the alignment is checked. Remember it is the details that always come back bite us in the butt. All the comments that have been made show the signs of misalignment from cracked flex plates to damaging the clutches and poor shifting trans.
 
Magnum Valiant said:
This is not answering the op's question and I hope I'm not hijacking this post. But...if the BH alignment was off, we would remove the dowels, align the housing and drill and ream for oversized dowels. This was on big Cummins powered trucks, never tried small block.
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No just check the alignment, if it is over .007" total, get the .007" offset dowels and realign. Do NOT drill and resize does not move the alignment. As far as Cummins that is a big diesel and the specs are different. Just drilling and reaming the hole does not move the bellhousing, just makes a bigger hole. You have to use offset dowels to move the bellhousing and the dowels are available. I have 9 sets on the shelf. Plus nothing will ever bolt up in the future.
 
I always install the dial indicator in the crank and dial to the hole in the bellhousing. I have made special tools over the years to set it up and get the alignment. It usually takes about 45 minutes to realign a bell housing on a small block. Because you can punch the dowels out, not like a big block. In answer to another question never have replaced a offset dowel, every one I have done still have the original dowels in them.
 
Ken Imthurn said:
No just check the alignment, if it is over .007" total, get the .007" offset dowels and realign. Do NOT drill and resize does not move the alignment. As far as Cummins that is a big diesel and the specs are different. Just drilling and reaming the hole does not move the bellhousing, just makes a bigger hole. You have to use offset dowels to move the bellhousing and the dowels are available. I have 9 sets on the shelf. Plus nothing will ever bolt up in the future.
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You need to re-read Magnum Valiant’s post. You align the bell housing with the dowel pins removed then drill the dowel pin holes oversized. The only issue I see is that the bell housing and the drill centerline must not move during the drilling process. If it were me I’d sandwich an oversized steel plate between the bell housing and the block and use a mag drill. The one problem that this creates is that the block and bell housing have oversized dowels and dowel holes so switching transmissions or bell housings becomes a problem in the future. With that said I’d use offset dowels.
 
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mcodecuda said:
You need to re-read Magnum Valiant’s post. You align the bell housing with the dowel pins removed then drill the dowel pin holes oversized. The only issue I see is that the bell housing and the drill centerline must not move during the drilling process. If it were me I’d sandwich an oversized steel plate between the bell housing and the block and use a mag drill. The one problem that this creates is that the block and bell housing have oversized dowels and dowel holes so switching transmissions or bell housings becomes a problem in the future. With that said I’d use offset dowels.
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Just my two cents on "oversized dowels". The purpose of utilizing oversized dowels would be the female side on the transmission (BH) dowel seat had become enlarged due to possible loose bolts or a High HP motor pounding. A good reason all bolt holes should be thread clean, by taping, including heads and the rest of the block, before torquing. This should bring the center line back to factory specs and off-set dowels should not be needed.
 
I had about 5 minutes today is all for the Cuda so got under there with the .915 pilot bushing and man from what I could barely see and feel the hole seems too small still. Suffering some burn out from these rabbit hole issues my first thought was worse case- what if there's a pilot bushing in there ( I honestly can't tell with my
Ken Imthurn said:
Bellhousing alignment is a critical item. There is a section in the factory service manuals just on this item. Now some history on alignments. On both automatics and manual shift trans the factory spec is .007" total runout. The reason this should be checked is every time a block is lined honed the crank line is moved approximately .004 to .006 " to get everything straight. What this does is moves the crank centerline farther up in the block. Now I have been doing this check for over 30 years. It started for me trying to get a front seal leaking trans fluid. I have done them in the car and on the bench when building new motors. Probably 75% of the engines I have done needed the offset dowels. I have even had brand new aftermarket blocks that did not meet the spec. That goes for all 3 Chrysler, Chev and Ford. Every motor that I build the first thing I do is when the crank is in it I bolt a bell housing on it and check. The factory service manual give detailed instructions on doing this procedure. The factory makes offset dowels on .007, .014, and .021. Now these offset dowels are also in the aftermarket and I personally use ones made in Nevada.
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Awesome reply! Thank you!
 
Magnum Valiant said:
This is not answering the op's question and I hope I'm not hijacking this post. But...if the BH alignment was off, we would remove the dowels, align the housing and drill and ream for oversized dowels. This was on big Cummins powered trucks, never tried small block.
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That would be tough to do with the engine in the car, especially since the dowel holes in the SB chrysler bellhousings are blind. If the dowel pin holes in the bellhousing are tore up, we repair them with a steel bushing.

dowel bushing.jpg


dowel bushing-1.jpg
 
Dan Brewer said:
That would be tough to do with the engine in the car, especially since the dowel holes in the SB chrysler bellhousings are blind. If the dowel pin holes in the bellhousing are tore up, we repair them with a steel bushing.

View attachment 1715899165

View attachment 1715899166
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I notice that the offset dowels that you offer are specific to small block bell housings only. Is there a reason why they wouldn’t work on a big block bell housing?
 
mcodecuda said:
I notice that the offset dowels that you offer are specific to small block bell housings only. Is there a reason why they wouldn’t work on a big block bell housing?
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The offset dowels on my site are ok for BB bells as-is. BB dowel holes in a bell are not blind, so the dowels can stick through. But like mentioned, the SB dowel holes are blind...so we have to shorten them up 0.400" which is what is listed as an option.
 
67Dart273 said:
I have always thought my 440-6 was poor alignment. If you are familiar, the 70 B bodies came with that dammed "scalloped" clutch which puts the disk edge in very close proximity to the mounting ears. "Any" little fuzz on the outer edge of the disk will drag on the ears and not release clean. That thing never shifted all that great and seemed like every time I had it apart, the pilot was worn bad. I'm am not a guy who sat in traffic with the clutch released
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The "big" 11.5? I can't really remember.. mine Was a Scalloped unit, it had GRAB! I loved it
 
This thread has gone sideways. OP if you have engine and trans out, it's a no brainer. Just index it. I used the offset dowels from Robbmc. Once they are in the block you can turn them with a wrench and then once they are set lock them in place. Easy.
 
Also, grab a pick with the hook on the end and see if you can feel the lip of the pilot bushing in the crank flange. That will tell you if you have one in there. Mine was so worn down it was hard to get a bite on it when I pulled it out.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
This thread has gone sideways. OP if you have engine and trans out, it's a no brainer. Just index it. I used the offset dowels from Robbmc. Once they are in the block you can turn them with a wrench and then once they are set lock them in place. Easy.
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I hear you, yep no brainer with engine out. Trans is out, but engine is in so, wow the thought of yanking it and re-installing it is nauseating at this moment. I honestly may need to give the car a break for a bit. This is one of many rabbit holes, Christ I spent half a day researching gear oil for the gear box! Part of the game/hobby I get it.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
Also, grab a pick with the hook on the end and see if you can feel the lip of the pilot bushing in the crank flange. That will tell you if you have one in there. Mine was so worn down it was hard to get a bite on it when I pulled it out.
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I'm pretty sure there is no bushing. Visually and feeling in there. My cheap inside caliper (only measures to the 100th) has the hole at .89
 
I8NEMO said:
I hear you, yep no brainer with engine out. Trans is out, but engine is in so, wow the thought of yanking it and re-installing it is nauseating at this moment. I honestly may need to give the car a break for a bit. This is one of many rabbit holes, Christ I spent half a day researching gear oil for the gear box! Part of the game/hobby I get it.
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I totally hear you. I'm in the same boat as you kind of. Lol. I pulled the motor with the intention of installing the 4 speed so I was all in. But the gear oil thing, I hear you. I get going down rabbit holes also. I think I'm just going to go with 75-85 gear oil, non synthetic. I know AJ uses a 50/50 of dex III and gear oil. I'm not sure where you find dex III, it's all been superceded to dex VI which is syn.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
I totally hear you. I'm in the same boat as you kind of. Lol. I pulled the motor with the intention of installing the 4 speed so I was all in. But the gear oil thing, I hear you. I get going down rabbit holes also. I think I'm just going to go with 75-85 gear oil, non synthetic. I know AJ uses a 50/50 of dex III and gear oil. I'm not sure where you find dex III, it's all been superceded to dex VI which is syn.
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Obviously we understand viscosity and temperature choices but, actually never knew a gear box could live (debatable in some threads) with ATF but it makes sense if you live in cold climates. After reading I got comfortable with what Mopar recommended since I live in Az., - GS4 spec 85-90 I found Sta Lube GS4 85-90 at NAPA and Amazon $32 for a gallon on Amazon lands today...well maybe, isn't that another rabbit hole? ha ha ha Are you in cold climate?
 
I8NEMO said:
Obviously we understand viscosity and temperature choices but, actually never knew a gear box could live (debatable in some threads) with ATF but it makes sense if you live in cold climates. After reading I got comfortable with what Mopar recommended since I live in Az., - GS4 spec 85-90 I found Sta Lube GS4 85-90 at NAPA and Amazon $32 for a gallon on Amazon lands today...well maybe, isn't that another rabbit hole? ha ha ha Are you in cold climate?
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No, I'm in Oregon. I mean the coldest it gets here is low 30's in the mornings, but I wouldn't drive my car if it's that cold often.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
I totally hear you. I'm in the same boat as you kind of. Lol. I pulled the motor with the intention of installing the 4 speed so I was all in. But the gear oil thing, I hear you. I get going down rabbit holes also. I think I'm just going to go with 75-85 gear oil, non synthetic. I know AJ uses a 50/50 of dex III and gear oil. I'm not sure where you find dex III, it's all been superceded to dex VI which is syn.
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I bought a brand new 73 Dart Sport 318 4-speed car back in 73 and the gears just rattled something awful. I found out that the gearbox came equipped with ATF so we drained it and refilled it with 90 weight and all the noises went away.
 
New 71 Dodges delivered out of Dodge Main in the Detroit area all had ATF in the manual transmissions. A friend and I campaigned a B modified Production 67 Coronet and used ATF in the rear axle and 833. It worked very well in the 833, shifted easier and faster and did no harm. If it made noise the open collectors masked it nicely. In the axle ATF was good for a tenth second and 4 MPH but the diff ran very hot and caused the ring gear teeth to crack at the root after 4 or 5 weeks, maybe 20 runs. The tooth surfaces looked OK though. The teeth never failed us because we were changing gear ratios often enough to catch them before they did. New 8-3/4 gear sets at Universal Transmission in Hamtramck (defunct now) were 40 dollars at the time. 833 3-4 crash box gears, blockers, and sliders were $59 a set. The parts came wire tied together, no boxes. Roller bearings and the pinion seal came the same way wired together. Origin of all of it was Chrysler Corp.
I've been using a 50/50 mix of 80-90 and 50W engine oil in my W150 service truck axles for 18 years now. It pulls a 4000 lb. trailer everywhere it goes and gets me an extra MPG here in northern Michigan, it rolls much easier when cold.
 
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