Biggest mistake ever- lunati cams

[AJ/FormS]

I have always run my Edelbrock-headed 11.3 Scr 367, on 87E10 since 1999. It has seen three cams; the aforementioned Mopar, a 223/230/[email protected] Hughes, and the current 230/236/110@050 Hughes. AND
With full timing, which with the Eddies seems to be 32 to 34 degrees.

 

[4spdragtop]

I bought an NOS Comp cam 20-247-4 SFT from a member on here. Was a good deal and didn't want to miss out on it. Should've researched a little more but screw it...with help from a member on here we're getting there lol

 

[thesiren74]

I think comp and lunati are the same because my machine shop told me to call them to see about a fit for the spudmasters and the same damn music and message on hold. Exactly the same. 1 hr 45 minutes yesterday afternoon, down to 2 callers left in que and they closed. Please call back tomorrow. Then today I call 5 minutes after they opened, 1 hr 2 minutes in and boink! Hung up. I'm glad I don't live near there.
Summit guided me to the trickflow springs but still a lot of work if they will even fit in the seat.
The whole reason for the cam was to have enough vacuum to use the power brakes.

My buddy just went through the same thing after his 401 amc comp cam ate his lifters, said 10 people ahead of him and ended up never getting through.

 

[MerlinsMopar]

Well, I definitely made the issue way harder than needed be. Took the heads of and to another performance machine shop nearby and he took the measurements and popped two .060 hp shims in the spring pockets and got my installed height down to 1.710. The springs were showing 125lb but will relax once it's broken in. Also told me to forget about breaking the cam in with only the outer spring and damper. Said it was a total waste of time. So my session has officially come to an end. Thanks to everyone for your replies. I can finally get this motor completed.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Well, I definitely made the issue way harder than needed be. Took the heads of and to another performance machine shop nearby and he took the measurements and popped two .060 hp shims in the spring pockets and got my installed height down to 1.710. The springs were showing 125lb but will relax once it's broken in. Also told me to forget about breaking the cam in with only the outer spring and damper. Said it was a total waste of time. So my session has officially come to an end. Thanks to everyone for your replies. I can finally get this motor completed.

Even 125 is a bit low.

I used to never, ever pull the inners. Now I do it religiously. I don’t care if it’s 100 on the seat. It’s not that hard to pull the inners, fire it off, run it in and then drop the inners back in and do another 15 minute run in.

These lobes are all pretty much quicker than what we had when I was a kid.

One junked lobe and you’ll wish you’d have done everything and then some because the cost of unscrewing the issue is way more than the time it takes to pull and install the inners.

I lost a lobe (just one) on a Comp cam on the dyno. And that was on a single spring. No inner. It’s a giant PITA to pull it down, clean it, get another cam and lifters and put it back together and then back on the dyno.

IT SUCKS. And it costs time and money.

I always say don’t step over a donut to pick up a dog turd, but you can also say don’t be pennywise and pound foolish.

 

[lilcuda]

I think comp and lunati are the same because my machine shop told me to call them to see about a fit for the spudmasters and the same damn music and message on hold. Exactly the same. 1 hr 45 minutes yesterday afternoon, down to 2 callers left in que and they closed. Please call back tomorrow. Then today I call 5 minutes after they opened, 1 hr 2 minutes in and boink! Hung up. I'm glad I don't live near there.
Summit guided me to the trickflow springs but still a lot of work if they will even fit in the seat.
The whole reason for the cam was to have enough vacuum to use the power brakes.

Yes, both are owned by The Edelbrock Group. Home - Edelbrock Group

 

[Cuprum-74]

Been running Lunati Voodoo for over 50K miles on my daily driven duster with a 1991 stock bore, 10.2 comp. roller cam 360.
No issues other than a slight one (see below)
I'm using the 20200711LUN & honestly it is a bit small.
However, I tried getting the bigger Voodoo Cam for my magnum 408 stroker build, after over 8 months waiting with no communication other than "Sorry, due to covid and internal restructuring we're experiencing a large backorder no ETA."
Every time I called them nobody answered. So I cancelled my order online, I kinda liked the Voodoo series, I just think the company isn't what it used to be.
I went with Hughes Engines instead and got the SER3034ALN-10 series, got it in about 3 months, Dave kept me in the loop with email updates every 2-3 weeks.

@lilcuda That would explain some things, because the stuff I got from Edelbrock took forever as well and that was when Edelbrock was moving their HQ out of California As I ordered their Alum. heads the same time as the Lunati cams. Still I got the heads after 5 months and they kept me in the loop with monthly emails at least.

 

[MerlinsMopar]

I have acquired a lot of yes and no with the dual springs but my issue was spring pressure and not really breaking in a motor i got a lot of both yes and no. . Once the springs are set within the suggested pressure, then I decided that 115/336lb isnt worth leaving the 2nd spring out during my break in.
I will get back with the outcome soon.

 

[MerlinsMopar]

I started this thread about lunati's horrible tech, and pairing the speedmaster 3048 heads. Problem was installed spring height was way off.
With these aluminum heads, it was way off. .110-.120.
The spring pockets need a steel seat and they can be shimmed. It should be done by the machine shop if they are paid to set up your heads in the 1st place. I checked each spring for tension at height on a rimac spring tester and they were all in spec but the retainer to pocket was off and shimmed each one according to the installed height.
I liked the lunati cam specs also and only wanted to ask them a simple question, which was basically impossible. I was looking for another spring to fill the gap and that was a big headache which was like hitting the lottery. I really didn't like shimming that much but the pockets were plenty deep and once I got assurance from a machinist, that's what I did.
As for the dual springs during break in, if the cam wipes a lobe at that low of a psi, it was no good to begin with or as stated, the lifters aren't spinning. High spring pressures need addressed tho. Each individual has to make their own decision and I have made mine. The machinist has broke in lots of lunati cams and never had an issue with it so I am following his knowledge even tho I want to follow the cam recommendations. Once I get the motor fired up, we will see.
That was my answer to my questions and I hope it helps others.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I started this thread about lunati's horrible tech, and pairing the speedmaster 3048 heads. Problem was installed spring height was way off.
With these aluminum heads, it was way off. .110-.120.
The spring pockets need a steel seat and they can be shimmed. It should be done by the machine shop if they are paid to set up your heads in the 1st place. I checked each spring for tension at height on a rimac spring tester and they were all in spec but the retainer to pocket was off and shimmed each one according to the installed height.
I liked the lunati cam specs also and only wanted to ask them a simple question, which was basically impossible. I was looking for another spring to fill the gap and that was a big headache which was like hitting the lottery. I really didn't like shimming that much but the pockets were plenty deep and once I got assurance from a machinist, that's what I did.
As for the dual springs during break in, if the cam wipes a lobe at that low of a psi, it was no good to begin with or as stated, the lifters aren't spinning. High spring pressures need addressed tho. Each individual has to make their own decision and I have made mine. The machinist has broke in lots of lunati cams and never had an issue with it so I am following his knowledge even tho I want to follow the cam recommendations. Once I get the motor fired up, we will see.
That was my answer to my questions and I hope it helps others.

I will say this and then you will do what you want.

The margin for error breaking in a cam is very narrow. Anything you can do to get the window open wider is cheap and easy.

Spring pressures, even as low as yours are are not the only consideration.

It doesn’t take long to remove the inners (or not put them in when the heads are going together) and it takes maybe an hour to install them after break in.

There is a reason why guys use lower ratio rockers, take the inners out and go through all the machinations they do to stack the odd in their favor.

You can do everything right and still lose a lobe. Maybe the lifter bore is on the loose side and any extra spring load may inhibit the lifter from rotating. And if that happens it will damn sure go flat.

You are working with 45-50 year old blocks. They move around. Unless you are bushing the lifter bores you are dealing with what you have. They may not be (and probably aren’t) in perfect shape, let alone being on the low side of tolerance.

You are closing the widow tighter by not removing the inners.

Saying if the cam goes flat means it was junk to begin with is very myopic. Yes, it happens. But skipping a simple process to add to the likelihood of success is bad policy.

 

[Car Nut]

Sounds so much easier just to get a top end kit.

 

[MerlinsMopar]

My neighbor build motors for sprint cars and put that same cam in a Chevy for his son with both springs installed and it runs great.
The machinst builds lots of motors with lunati cams He used to build motors for Mike Dunn before he went into nhra. He said it's a waste of time and I realize that it could potentially cause a problem, but, I just don't see it happening . I have broken in larger cams with dual springs with no issues so unless there is something about lunati cams that causes that issue to happen, I can't see any reason why I should be concerned. I always get nervous while breaking in a motor and really, anything can go wrong and usually does right away. It is important to make sure it is primed, the right oil, and fuel line and bowls are full. Timing light ready and minimal cranking. Watch the oil psi and tach. I think it will fire within 2 revolutions. I will follow the suggested run in process and I guess I will find out if it works or not. My dad used to always say, what your head don't know, your *** will feel but in this case I am using information from reputable mechanics. Worse comes to worse, I have a .508 purple shaft and lifters sitting on the shelf for backup. In all reality, you could use 1 spring, break in then go to install the 2nd one and a keeper pops right down an oiling hole or somewhere. Or install 2nd spring and lobe wipes out anyway. There is always a chance anything could happen. Running with 1 spring isn't lessening much. If it was a big solid lift with massive spring psi, I would use break in springs and swap em but this is .494-.513. that's slightly more than stock.

 

[crackedback]

I started this thread about lunati's horrible tech, and pairing the speedmaster 3048 heads. Problem was installed spring height was way off.
With these aluminum heads, it was way off. .110-.120.
The spring pockets need a steel seat and they can be shimmed. It should be done by the machine shop if they are paid to set up your heads in the 1st place. I checked each spring for tension at height on a rimac spring tester and they were all in spec but the retainer to pocket was off and shimmed each one according to the installed height.
I liked the lunati cam specs also and only wanted to ask them a simple question, which was basically impossible. I was looking for another spring to fill the gap and that was a big headache which was like hitting the lottery. I really didn't like shimming that much but the pockets were plenty deep and once I got assurance from a machinist, that's what I did.
As for the dual springs during break in, if the cam wipes a lobe at that low of a psi, it was no good to begin with or as stated, the lifters aren't spinning. High spring pressures need addressed tho. Each individual has to make their own decision and I have made mine. The machinist has broke in lots of lunati cams and never had an issue with it so I am following his knowledge even tho I want to follow the cam recommendations. Once I get the motor fired up, we will see.
That was my answer to my questions and I hope it helps others.

Speedmaster set up their product to run a taller installed height. Speedmaster are a bolt on head but it IS NOT an OEM spec piece. Lunati recommends a spring that is suitable for the shorter OEM installed height.

Blame whoever you like. This is part of being a competent engine builder. You either shim the crap out of the lunati spring or find a spring with a suitable seat pressure and compression rate.

If a shop can't figure this out, they aren't very good. It's the shops issue to come up with a suggestion/solution. Don't expect lunati to assist if things go wrong using a different spring.

Yeah phone tech support with most of the place sucks now. That is spot on.

 

[Bewy]

The best way to avoid a cam/lifter wipe out is to get some 25+ yr old factory [ or aftermarket, same 25 + yr ] lifters & have them re-faced. The problem is the lifters.

 

[72bluNblu]

Speedmaster set up their product to run a taller installed height. Speedmaster are a bolt on head but it IS NOT an OEM spec piece. Lunati recommends a spring that is suitable for the shorter OEM installed height.

Blame whoever you like. This is part of being a competent engine builder. You either shim the crap out of the lunati spring or find a spring with a suitable seat pressure and compression rate.

If a shop can't figure this out, they aren't very good. It's the shops issue to come up with a suggestion/solution. Don't expect lunati to assist if things go wrong using a different spring.

Yeah phone tech support with most of the place sucks now. That is spot on.

100% spot on.

Sounds to me like the OP just wants to blame Lunati or Speedmaster for his own mistakes.

Anyone that’s ever put a bigger cam into an engine has solved these problems or paid a machinist to do it. It’s just what has to be done.

 

[Cal Tonsley]

Ha

100% spot on.

Sounds to me like the OP just wants to blame Lunati or Speedmaster for his own mistakes.

Anyone that’s ever put a bigger cam into an engine has solved these problems or paid a machinist to do it. It’s just what has to be done.

Having worked in the valve train industry for some years, too much installed height was actually an all too rare yet desirable luxury.
More often than not, customers would be fighting a losing battle when using a big cam and stock heads with low/std installed heights by using low spec springs with coil bind issues.
Plus, diligent engine builders would always (and happily) add the inners after break in on a flat tapper cam!

 

[MerlinsMopar]

100% spot on.

Sounds to me like the OP just wants to blame Lunati or Speedmaster for his own mistakes.

Anyone that’s ever put a bigger cam into an engine has solved these problems or paid a machinist to do it. It’s just what has to be done.

Took the sm heads to a machine shop which was hard to find during the pandemic, still in the boxes to be checked and set up for my new cam choice. Paid them 1100$ to assure they were set up properly. Stock heads were worked before that by same shop. I explained that I wanted to use the lunati springs but when I picked them up, they were still on the stock heads. I told them they needed to be switched and asked them to leave the inner out for break in. The next day I went back and picked both sets of heads up. A year later when the car was painted, I was getting the valve train ready to put on action and noticed the dampers missing so I grabbed my compressor and started to install them. That's when I noticed the difference in size comparison to the sm heads original springs.
The machine shop screwed me and luckily I caught it. I then tried to find springs and or a solution to it and I did. There are thousands of springs out there and didn't feel like searching specs for another year to locate ones that would work. I reached out to the site, knowing that many here have used sm heads to see if they had a solution. I got mixed replies and wasn't taking a potluck chance. I tore the heads back off and to a different shop which stated simple spring pockets shims. I didn't know I could shim that much but apparently I can so I got out the rimac and height checker and got all within .010. I
I don't see how that's my fault.

 

[72bluNblu]

Took the sm heads to a machine shop which was hard to find during the pandemic, still in the boxes to be checked and set up for my new cam choice. Paid them 1100$ to assure they were set up properly. Stock heads were worked before that by same shop. I explained that I wanted to use the lunati springs but when I picked them up, they were still on the stock heads. I told them they needed to be switched and asked them to leave the inner out for break in. The next day I went back and picked both sets of heads up. A year later when the car was painted, I was getting the valve train ready to put on action and noticed the dampers missing so I grabbed my compressor and started to install them. That's when I noticed the difference in size comparison to the sm heads original springs.
The machine shop screwed me and luckily I caught it. I then tried to find springs and or a solution to it and I did. There are thousands of springs out there and didn't feel like searching specs for another year to locate ones that would work. I reached out to the site, knowing that many here have used sm heads to see if they had a solution. I got mixed replies and wasn't taking a potluck chance. I tore the heads back off and to a different shop which stated simple spring pockets shims. I didn't know I could shim that much but apparently I can so I got out the rimac and height checker and got all within .010. I
I don't see how that's my fault.

How is it Lunati’s? How is it Speedmasters?

You started this thread by basically saying it was Lunati’s fault. Yeah, I get it, their customer service isn’t great if you can’t get through. But even if you got through, who did you think you were going to talk to? The days where you could call a company like Lunati and get an actual tech, and not just a customer service rep, have been gone for a long time. Even 20 years ago getting a tech on the line knowledgeable enough to have given you legitimate advice on spring heights and pressures for a specific combination would have been pretty unlikely.

Machinists and engine builders are where you get info like that. Sounds like your shop wasn’t all that knowledgeable, which is too bad. But it happens, and ultimately you also picked that shop. These things happen, sometimes certain combinations of parts are harder to make work together than others. But as others have already said, that’s what makes a good engine builder or machine shop. Immediately blaming Lunati and Speedmaster isn’t a good look, other people have made those combinations work. The specs are published, if you don’t want to take the time to find springs with the right specs that’s not on them.

Hell, it’s a lot easier than it used to be, there was a time in the not so distant past you’d have had to sort through a dozen different phone book thick parts catalogs to come up with the right parts. Now you just google it.

 

[MerlinsMopar]

Agreed. Was overheating on lunati mainly because of their horrible tech line and the machine shop that was paid to do the work was a highly recommended shop that plain just screwed me. If I would have known that I could shim that much I was able to handle that. Even still, when I took the heads to another shop, he checked 2 valves and both were the same so he gave enough shims to do all at that height. I started checking others and no way were they all the same. But after a few assortment pks, I am within .010 thru out. Just goes to show how much everything has changed from reliable to pathetic.
Thanks to all for the input.

 

[Bewy]

Irrespective of the springs used, I suggest you read post #39 AGAIN.

Then, go to the i'net & read about alllllllllllllllllllllll the flat tappet cam failures, many from experienced engine builders with years of experience....

 

[Cal Tonsley]

Irrespective of the springs used, I suggest you read post #39 AGAIN.

Then, go to the i'net & read about alllllllllllllllllllllll the flat tappet cam failures, many from experienced engine builders with years of experience....

Without doubt and as long as we also keep in mind that excessive spring pressures during run in and poor engine building practises were killing lobes way back then (25+ years ago) as well!

 

[Dale Davies]

Well 1st off, lunati tech support really sucks. 2hrs 45 minutes and got hung up on.
My issue was my mistake tho. I ordered the voodoo cam/lifter and spring PKG. Cam # 10200703. Spring # 73195k which was fine and dandy for stock x head spring height however, I got the speed master heads bug from someone, dumped another 1k into them and assembled the motor. When I went to check spring psi and installed height, closed height was almost a 1/4" more than stock x heads.
Installed height is 1 .84 on the speed master heads and closed psi is 115lb.
Closest spring I could find was trickflow # 16972-16 which show 1.85 installed height at 109lb which may be able to be shimmed to get close. The main issue with them is the outer diameter of 1.46 and the heads use a 1.437 dia spring. Its turning into a big mistake buying this junk. I am ready to pull this cam and throw it thru a window. Should have stuck with Mopar. If anyone has this setup and any helpful information, I sure would appreciate it. I wanted to take the car to Carlisle in July but at this point, I will never make it.

Seems to me your problem is in research and planning. Is the Lunati cam the problem or the Speed Master heads.
You also mention the spring pockets are 1.437" diameter while the purchased springs are 1.46" diameter. That is only 0.030" difference which should be easily milled out to fit the steel spring seats that fit your springs. I assume you bought aluminium heads.
So are you going to keep blaming Lunati, Speed Master or yourself?

 

[Dale Davies]

Agreed on my mistake which started when I purchased the speed master heads. They went right to the machine shop where the stock heads were done and when I picked them up, I noticed that the lunati springs were still on the stock heads and I told them that I needed them on the speed masters. Well they did change them over but never checked anything. I seen the dampeners were out along with the inner springs so I put the dampeners back in as instructed for break-in. That's when I noticed the difference in size and TG I did cuz that was a disaster brewing and at the longer installed height the spring psi was like 60lb.
I was hoping to ask lunati if they had the correct spring at installed height and after a portion of my life, was unable to talk to anyone which had me heated.

Talk to PAC Racing Springs. They don't sell to the public, but will recommend a part number. I did that concerning springs for my 1966 289 heads. They gave me the part number for springs with a 1.64" installed height as required. I them called Summit to order those springs, and the retainers and locks to fit the springs and Chev LS valves.
Did the research and then ordered the parts. When you do not do your research up front to form a plan that you then stick to, it ends up costing a whole bunch extra.

 

[12many]

Regarding what will fit without additional machining, I fit these Comp single springs w/dampers to the Speedmaster heads using the retainers and spring locators that came with the heads.

Only needed the correct sized shims to get the installed heights spot on. No milling or machining needed.
Had to measure what I had, determined what I needed and proceeded to check the specs of what was available to make it happen.

Single Outer Valve Springs: 1.476" O.D., 1.062" I.D.

 

[Dale Davies]

Maybe you can now appreciate the difference between a REAL "engine builder" and a "parts assembler" and your machine shop sounds incompetent

Sounds so much easier just to get a top end kit.

Wellll, that can be a deep subject in its own right.