That's what I'm trying to figure out. I don't particularly want to cut the steering shaft. What I'm wondering is, if the early A power steering shaft will swap into the manual column. OR which later power column will swap into my 64?
Borgeson Power Steering Thoughts....
- Thread starter RustyRatRod
- Start date
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J-c-c
Well-Known Member
I would always prefer a collapsible shaft. I have little concern cutting anything when it concerns safety.
How interchangeable are steering shafts in the 60's cars?
Does using two separate u joints with an intermediate shaft of any length/offset give some safety collapsibility?
4mulas
Fixem'up
Call the guy selling this stuff. Peter at Bergman. Hell probaly know as he’d love nothing more than to sell a complete kit I’m sure!
I'd like to buy one, but I have to figure out how to make it work for me, first. I have contacted him on Facebook. Maybe he can give some advice here, too. @BergmanAutoCraft
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I recall reading that the power steering shaft will fit in the 1964 column. The only column difference I know is whether it has a shifter in the column (for manual transmission in 1964). Perhaps manual column housings were longer, but would only be for cosmetics. Many people cut their manual shaft and drill a hole for the coupler. When going the other way, to a manual box, they add an aftermarket length adapter. You might swap your manual shaft with a power shaft with another hobbyists since more people go to manual steering to clear headers.
While "in there", assure your column has a seal at the end to keep engine bay fumes and noise out of the cabin. OE was a rubber piece, which is repro'ed. One member here posted a fix using a ball-bearing.
While "in there", assure your column has a seal at the end to keep engine bay fumes and noise out of the cabin. OE was a rubber piece, which is repro'ed. One member here posted a fix using a ball-bearing.
Dukeowindsor
Member
Mr. Ratrod, et al.,
I haven't posted much on the forum, but I have experience this installation. I managed a 2-man Mopar resto shop, Viau Motorsports in Lake Elsinore, CA from 2006 to 2019 and I've installed at least a half dozen Borgeson steering boxes into Mopars, including a 1964 Barracuda. The first install was featured on the online magazine Street Muscle Magazine, on their 1965 Belvedere. I've also worked with Cudamark from this forum, most recently on his red convertible.
At the shop, we used the Bergman adapters exclusively. Good product and straight forward install. For the '64 A-body, the center steering column shaft is interchangeable in the outer steering column housing from power to manual steering. The steering shaft length is one difference between power to manual steering set ups.
You can swap your steering column center shaft for the shorter power steering shaft. It should be from any 63-66 A-body. Or what I did was cut down the manual shaft to the power steering length, then redrill for and press in the coupler cross shaft. Using the Bergman adapter should keep you in the factory adjustable range for centering the shoes in the steering coupler.
For steering pumps, we used Saginaw style and the Bergman conversion hose kit. Hot rod fabricate as needed.
I haven't posted much on the forum, but I have experience this installation. I managed a 2-man Mopar resto shop, Viau Motorsports in Lake Elsinore, CA from 2006 to 2019 and I've installed at least a half dozen Borgeson steering boxes into Mopars, including a 1964 Barracuda. The first install was featured on the online magazine Street Muscle Magazine, on their 1965 Belvedere. I've also worked with Cudamark from this forum, most recently on his red convertible.
At the shop, we used the Bergman adapters exclusively. Good product and straight forward install. For the '64 A-body, the center steering column shaft is interchangeable in the outer steering column housing from power to manual steering. The steering shaft length is one difference between power to manual steering set ups.
You can swap your steering column center shaft for the shorter power steering shaft. It should be from any 63-66 A-body. Or what I did was cut down the manual shaft to the power steering length, then redrill for and press in the coupler cross shaft. Using the Bergman adapter should keep you in the factory adjustable range for centering the shoes in the steering coupler.
For steering pumps, we used Saginaw style and the Bergman conversion hose kit. Hot rod fabricate as needed.
Thank you! That was the black and white information I was looking for. It's very much appreciated.
Dukeowindsor
Member
You are welcome, sir
Using the Borgeson U-joint eliminates the plunge feature of the factory coupler and the one Bergman offers.
I don't think that is a good idea.
I don't think that is a good idea.
Just so you don't waste time wondering what the heck is going on (like I did, until I called Borgeson). I begin rough alignments by making the pitman arm angle parallel to the frame rail when the steering box is adjusted to be on center. But, the Borgeson unit bolts in at a 4.5 degree angle, so when the Borgeson box is on center, your pitman arm won't be parallel to the frame rail, resulting in the tie rod lengths being unequal when both wheels point straight ahead. Borgeson had to put in the 4.5 degrees to adapt their GM box to the Mopar K-member mounts. You can see that 4.5 degrees on their site, on their installation drawing. The Borgeson engineer I talked to said their box has to be on center when going straight ahead, and that it is not OK to fudge it off center to make the tie rods equal length. He didn't say what the reason was, so maybe it's for straight ahead tracking stability, or maybe so the turn radius isn't changed, or maybe for "return to center" force after the turn, or maybe something else. I don't know. But, I would rather have equal length tie rods, so if anyone out there thinks it is OK to start with the steering box off center, please let me know why.
I'm running pump pressure on the low side because I like the feel better, and sometimes I swear I can feel the difference in force (caused by the 4.5 degree angle) between starting to turn left or right, when starting from straight. But, it's barely noticeable, and probably not noticeable at the recommended pump pressure.
I won't be using a u-joint no matter which way I go.
Thank you for that!
When I got my car I put in a PST 16:1 manual steering box and it's been the most fun car to drive I've had in a long time. On the open road. In town, not so much, and it turns out I do a lot of in town driving. Couple that with the fact that I ain't getting any younger and by gosh, I've been thinking about the Borgeson option a lot lately. Thanks all for the discussion.
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How bad is the 16:1 steering box? I have been driving my ‘71 Duster with manual steering for 52 years and it isn’t getting any easier and I’ve not even checked to see what the factory steering ratio is. The steering has a lot of slack and I’m reading this thread to get ideas. Power steering sounds great - but I may not be up to the complication that involves.
Anyone out there that could recommend a 20:1 vs 24:1 steering box for someone that isn’t getting any younger? Secondly - who might I contact to make sure I purchase the correct steering box for a 1971 Duster with a 318 and manual steering (manual everything)? If it makes any difference - the car was built in June of ‘71 (almost at the end of the production run). I’ve come across a part somewhere that matched a 72 Duster rather than a 71.
J-c-c
Well-Known Member
And the reason why is?
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
From everything I have read and heard, a light car with 16 to 1 manual steering is fine while driving down the road but a struggle at low speeds.
Are you getting younger and stronger or older and weaker?
It is a harsh reality to admit but nobody gets younger and we all “peak” in strength at some point. I’d guess that most of us are beyond our peak strength so…
The stock manual was 24 to 1. 20 to 1 was an improvement but the effort at low speeds does increase a lot.
A power assisted 14 to 1 unit ( like with the Borgeson unit) is easy at low speeds and great while out on the road.
Are you getting younger and stronger or older and weaker?
It is a harsh reality to admit but nobody gets younger and we all “peak” in strength at some point. I’d guess that most of us are beyond our peak strength so…
The stock manual was 24 to 1. 20 to 1 was an improvement but the effort at low speeds does increase a lot.
A power assisted 14 to 1 unit ( like with the Borgeson unit) is easy at low speeds and great while out on the road.
I prefer the factory coupler.
I'm curious about your pump pressure.. I'm running a Borgeson pump in a Hemi swap, using a stock Hemi 6.4 pump. I picked a pressure reducer form Sublime, that reduces the pressure to 800 -850 psi. I believe stock pressure is 1350 psi (still trying to find more data) The lower pressure valve is intended to be used with a stock box, no mention of aftermarket. SO, I'm kinda torn which way to go, since the recommended pressure for Borg is 1100-1250. What pressure are you running?
I also noticed on his site that he also recommends running a 2.5 gpm orifice.. Again, not sure how any of this applies to the Borg box but maybe adding a 2.5 orifice to you setup may make it feel better for you. I'm still trying to figure which direction I need to go...
From Sublimeparts.com site
These pressure relief valves are designed for 800-850 psi and are a direct replacement for the valves in your current "Toyoda" power steering pumps as found on most Hemi engines.
Simply combine with a 2.5 Gallon Per Minute (gpm) flow orifice and you should be good to go.
We recommend using the TurnOne 2.5 gpm orifice fitting, commonly found for the Cadillac CTSV.
DionR
Well-Known Member
DIYHemi (Sublime) has 2 videos on reducing the pressure on YT and they say the stock Hemi pump is like 1600psi, but an Avalon or Camry valve is about 1140psi.
I thought there was a chart someplace with the markings on the valves and associated pressures but couldn’t find it.
Still digging into it.
I put a Borgeson in my Coronet. It is much easier to drive than the manual box that was in there. It was a complicated project since I had to find a different steering shaft and I needed to fabricate brackets to hold the PS pump. But I figured it all out and it works nice. It wasn't cheap or easy, but the finished project makes the car driving experience much nicer.
I was lucky since I had a spare PS shaft that I had pulled out of a wrecking yard many years before. So I swapped shafts and rebuilt the steering column at the same time. I was able to buy new bearings and seals and gaskets. Turned the project into a bigger project but that is how it goes sometimes.
That's how it goes with everything I do. Thanks. lol
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