Breaking Point On A 440 Block

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805moparkid

805moparkid

Slant and AFX Guy
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hey guys, most of you guys have seen my AFX as well as the 512 i built in high school. well the more i learn of course the more i want to change things!

so here is the deal with where this motor currently is! i have a early 70's RV block with stock caps/ ARP studs, block was fully blue printed. for the rotating assembly i have a 440 source 512 kit (4.250 stroke/4.350 bore (.030 over)). On the top end currently are OOTB Victor heads and intake. My "Learners" cam is a comp .564 lift flat hyd cam, small for now. Only changes to be made before the motor goes in are Milidon oil pump with external oil line, some long tubes and Hilborn Stacks with EFI conversion.

Now my question is that when i grow up and do the max wedge ports, solid roller, and compression bump, this thing will make some serious power, but what can the block handle? should i just start over with an aftermarket aluminum one thats already 4 bolted of rework the good old mopar cast iron one.

Im on the fence on where to go.

Thanks!

EDIT:
Forgot Pics!!!
 

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I'd go with an aftermarket block, but that's just me.
 
I wouldn't worry about it until I'd raced the thing.

I'm a performance motoring journalist so I see alot of build-ups and talk to alot of guys personally about there cars and the biggest issue I see is guys get sidetracked by what they're planning down the road before they've even finished doing what they're doing right now.

Finish what you're doing, race it, enjoy it and then think about the next step so you're ready for if/when it breaks.

Cool car dude, get it on the track.
 
Ed,I would yank that hydro cam. With a stroker, you need quick valve action. I was thinking, around 260/[email protected] on a 110,108. Remember strokers devour duration. Those OOTB heads need some lift,as well.(.580-.600 ish?).
 
Abodybomber said:
Ed,I would yank that hydro cam. With a stroker, you need quick valve action. I was thinking, around 260/[email protected] on a 110,108. Remember strokers devour duration. Those OOTB heads need some lift,as well.(.580-.600 ish?).
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yea, what he said! put a girdle on it-hold the rpm under 6500-main studs-line hone-cryogenic treatment for the block and mains-fluid damper.
should take 800ish h.p. for a good while!:coffee2:
 
Womanator is a prime example of what you can do with a stock block. His stuff is fast. Whenever I see people arguing about what stock blocks will take, Womanator always pops into my head. I don't know how many runs he has on all his stuff combined, but it's a lot. All with stock blocks I believe. I'm not experienced first hand, but from all I've read and seen, the stock blocks are strong. You thought about adding a girdle? I would do that.....that's about all you can do now and run it till it splits in two. It might surprise you.

You think maybe the stroker will get you into the 13s? lol
 
blownhemi said:
I wouldn't worry about it until I'd raced the thing.

I'm a performance motoring journalist so I see alot of build-ups and talk to alot of guys personally about there cars and the biggest issue I see is guys get sidetracked by what they're planning down the road before they've even finished doing what they're doing right now.

Finish what you're doing, race it, enjoy it and then think about the next step so you're ready for if/when it breaks.

Cool car dude, get it on the track.
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im not really a wait for it to break kinda guy, if it happens, ok, but i dont like to know i have a time bomb lol. as for the side track, well... it can be just part of the deal.

but thank you

Abodybomber said:
Ed,I would yank that hydro cam. With a stroker, you need quick valve action. I was thinking, around 260/[email protected] on a 110,108. Remember strokers devour duration. Those OOTB heads need some lift,as well.(.580-.600 ish?).
Click to expand...

oh i know, but again i built this in high school, it was the biggest cam my dad would let me put in it lol... to ease your mind its getting a crower when the time comes...
 
famous bob said:
yea, what he said! put a girdle on it-hold the rpm under 6500-main studs-line hone-cryogenic treatment for the block and mains-fluid damper.
should take 800ish h.p. for a good while!:coffee2:
Click to expand...

yea i was actually gonna try to keep it at 6 but will see. and yes its all been line honed.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Womanator is a prime example of what you can do with a stock block. His stuff is fast. Whenever I see people arguing about what stock blocks will take, Womanator always pops into my head. I don't know how many runs he has on all his stuff combined, but it's a lot. All with stock blocks I believe. I'm not experienced first hand, but from all I've read and seen, the stock blocks are strong. You thought about adding a girdle? I would do that.....that's about all you can do now and run it till it splits in two. It might surprise you.

You think maybe the stroker will get you into the 13s? lol
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should do it in reverse... lol
 
I am in the same boat as you and today my Indy sourced MP mega block (one of the last 2 in existance as far as I can tell) and 4.25 stroke x 4.500 bore rotating assy showed up at the builder's shop. Try to buy a "Indy, World, Kolene" block - there ain't none to be had new. I could have used a 4.350 bore x 4.375 stroke 440 Source rotating kit I already have with the Chenowith 3/8 girdle I also have (came with a pile of parts I bought off RJ) on a machined stock block, but my research led me to the conclusion that 650 HP is about all a stock 440 block is reliably good for. I am looking for about 800 HP (13-1) and want to have the margin to spray it if I get bored with that power level. Drag engine, race gas only build.

I considered the Indy alum block and a KB alum block, but didn't want to deal with the alum block hassles. Was greatful to find a MP block (Koleno isn't making any, MP isn't either) and had to pay to get it bored to 4.500. We'll see how Indy did me on the parts, hope the machine shop is better at machining than the counter guy who answers the phone is at customer service.

Some folks say alum caps, a good girdle, maybe some fill and you can run higher power with a stock block. All in the tune as they say, but I wanted margin and reliability. Heck, that girdle may find it's way to the MP block if it will fit and I don't have to re-hone the mains.

BTW, I will be using a Indy R2 cam (Comp grind), MRL roller lifters, Indy 440-1 MW 325 CNC heads that have been worked and corrected by a shop (may see a thread on that someday), Harland Sharp 1.6 rockers, and the Indy single plane Dominator manifold. This is basically copying their 800 HP 500" Bracket engine but with more bore (unshroud the valves) and stroke so it will rev and let the cam/heads do their thing. Should rev like a SB.
 
I agree with the cam being too small. So - given that's the case, I don't think you have too much to wory about with this block. It's effectively a rev limiter. I've built several of those 505 kits (512 is a .060 overbore) and they are easilly able to break a stock block if given enough head and camshaft. There's two points of failuer: the main saddles and webbing - which is slow to occur but will ultimately be the end of most high powered builds; and the caps which if left stock will deform and hurt bearings and if replaced with steel will quicken the loss of the main webbing integrity. The best you can do is get it balanced well, do everything to avoid thin cylinder walls and detonation, and if you exceed 600hp I'd go with aluminum caps to absorb some of the shock. I never use a manufacturer's balanced assemblies. I have a shop I pay to get it perfect. If your plan is to exceed 700hp I'd replace the block and I'd go aluminum. I havent shopped for a while for one - so Woofer may be right in regard to finding an iron one. Be aware of "deals" on MP blocks - a lot of them are junk right out of the foundry.
 
moper said:
I agree with the cam being too small. So - given that's the case, I don't think you have too much to wory about with this block. It's effectively a rev limiter. I've built several of those 505 kits (512 is a .060 overbore) and they are easilly able to break a stock block if given enough head and camshaft. There's two points of failuer: the main saddles and webbing - which is slow to occur but will ultimately be the end of most high powered builds; and the caps which if left stock will deform and hurt bearings and if replaced with steel will quicken the loss of the main webbing integrity. The best you can do is get it balanced well, do everything to avoid thin cylinder walls and detonation, and if you exceed 600hp I'd go with aluminum caps to absorb some of the shock. I never use a manufacturer's balanced assemblies. I have a shop I pay to get it perfect. If your plan is to exceed 700hp I'd replace the block and I'd go aluminum. I havent shopped for a while for one - so Woofer may be right in regard to finding an iron one. Be aware of "deals" on MP blocks - a lot of them are junk right out of the foundry.
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i know the cam is the slow point and that was my plan for now. i used a small cam as not to kill my self till i learned to use that power, then go to a roller.

and i know all about the world/mp blocks... the cast iron ones we used on our hemi's have been a nightmare, but now were running the aluminum ones without issue
 
I used to run a .060 440 with an offset ground crank (396 rod bearings), 64 maxy heads, ultradyne roller, bme rods, pistons and a welded and reported offy single dominator intake. I ran the piss out of it track, daily, street. It never missed a beat. The stuff we can get now is so much nicer than in the 80's when you had to fabricate everything.
 
All of my 505s are pump gas street cars. none of them can go full throttle until 2nd or 3rd gear and one is described as "dangerous until I'm in 3rd (4sp car)" by it's owner. There is such a thing as "too much torque" when you dont have the suspension and tire for it. But - after reading your posts over the years, I give you about 2 months before you want more...lol.
 
I say push it to the max & then if it blows up post it here on FABO with your results so we will have a point of reference to start with!
 
I i'd look to some Super Stock owner/builders to determine how they do it. I know some of the fast guys, SS/DA,EA and the like, are turning some serious rpm's and probably making 700+ in a lot of cases. Can't hurt if you could pick a few of there brains?


P.S. Before someone chimes in and reminds us that they spend 30/40/50k to build their engines, that wasn't my intent for you in the above post. I just have to think there may be some tips/tricks that can carry over to a little more modest bracket build.
 
moper said:
All of my 505s are pump gas street cars. none of them can go full throttle until 2nd or 3rd gear and one is described as "dangerous until I'm in 3rd (4sp car)" by it's owner. There is such a thing as "too much torque" when you dont have the suspension and tire for it. But - after reading your posts over the years, I give you about 2 months before you want more...lol.
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well that why i built the engine the way i did. the heads have alot of head work to be done and obviously alot left on the table for cam! i hope it takes longer than two months though!

Lonewolf3165 said:
I say push it to the max & then if it blows up post it here on FABO with your results so we will have a point of reference to start with!
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OldmanRick said:
I i'd look to some Super Stock owner/builders to determine how they do it. I know some of the fast guys, SS/DA,EA and the like, are turning some serious rpm's and probably making 700+ in a lot of cases. Can't hurt if you could pick a few of there brains?


P.S. Before someone chimes in and reminds us that they spend 30/40/50k to build their engines, that wasn't my intent for you in the above post. I just have to think there may be some tips/tricks that can carry over to a little more modest bracket build.
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i understand what you mean. i have some people i can call and pick there brain...
 
As already mentioned the main webs and main cap walk are your enemy. A girdle will help as well as aluminum caps. With that said I would say 650 -700 HP is the reliable limit.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
As already mentioned the main webs and main cap walk are your enemy. A girdle will help as well as aluminum caps. With that said I would say 650 -700 HP is the reliable limit.
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with the girdle do i have to re-line hone the mains with the girdle installed?
 
805moparkid said:
with the girdle do i have to re-line hone the mains with the girdle installed?
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if ur block has been line honed w/ studs already, ur not supposed to have to do it again for a girdle, but will probably need longer studs and don`t forget the shims. bob
 
Well you already have an engine so to me it does not make much sense to me to look for a block and go through the trouble of fitting all the parts from it into anothr block. I would hold back on going crazy with this engine and keep looking for a race block to start building the all out motor you want, then either sell the stock block motor or keep it for a spare or use it in another car. I'm planning my next engine for my Duster and want to have at least 800 hp so I'm probly going to sell the 440 and 400 blocks I aquired and use the cash towards a race block. To me it makes little to no sense to build something you know will fail. JMO.
 
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