Budget 360 build in heavy car- Which cam?

[mshred]

Debating between these 2 Howards Hydraulic flat tappet cams for a mostly street cruiser with some strip action (idle quality is not a concern fyi). Engine is a 70's 360 with the following:

- Ball hone rebuild on the bottom end (stock bottom end)
- Stock heads with .028" thin head gaskets (possible milling the heads for compression if in the budget) and speedmaster adjustable rockers
- Air gap intake
- Holley 780CFM carb
- Hooker 1-5/8 headers
- 3700lb car, 3000-3500 converter with manual valvebody

Which cam would be the better choice? Which would create more vacuum? Would either be okay with stock pushrods and rockers, or are the adjustable rockers a good idea on this? I've never done a hydraulic flat tappet build before, only roller and solid stuff. Any one brand of lifters better than another?

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360 1800 to 5800 Howards Cams 711451-08 | Howards Cams

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360 2200 to 6000 Howards Cams 710461-10 | Howards Cams

 

[318willrun]

what gear ? I like the 711451-08

 

[AJ/FormS]

I would prefer the split pattern; cuz you can move it around some and not loose your overlap window, which with these small cams, is a big deal..
But honestly, with a 3500 stall, car weight for a streeter is not the issue. You got torque multiplication up the wazoo. The bigger deal is gonna be trying to make the tires stick.. The smaller cam has good fuel-economy potential tho.
The best of both worlds would put the 267 intake lobe with the 273 lobe on the exhaust then put it on a 107 LSA, installed straight up.
That would get you more overlap than either of the stockers, more compression degrees with the earliest Ica, and more than adequate Power duration.
This would get you a solid 10 psi more cylinder pressure than the bigger cam, and probably allow you to run a sub-3000 convertor, or the next lower rear gear than you were planning to, and your fuel consumption would get better as well. If you did this, I highly recommend you do the oiling moods from the sticky on the "forums" page, so you can run over 6500 without throwing rod bearings.... cuz it will happily go there

 

[mshred]

what gear ? I like the 711451-08

Still up in the air, but either a 3.06, 3.23 or 3.55. I know the 3.55 will be the best out those for optimal track performance.

I would prefer the split pattern; cuz you can move it around some and not loose your overlap window, which with these small cams, is a big deal..
But honestly, with a 3500 stall, car weight for a streeter is not the issue. You got torque multiplication up the wazoo. The bigger deal is gonna be trying to make the tires stick.. The smaller cam has good fuel-economy potential tho.
The best of both worlds would put the 267 intake lobe with the 273 lobe on the exhaust then put it on a 107 LSA, installed straight up.
That would get you more overlap than either of the stockers, more compression degrees with the earliest Ica, and more than adequate Power duration.
This would get you a solid 10 psi more cylinder pressure than the bigger cam, and probably allow you to run a sub-3000 convertor, or the next lower rear gear than you were planning to, and your fuel consumption would get better as well. If you did this, I highly recommend you do the oiling moods from the sticky on the "forums" page, so you can run over 6500 without throwing rod bearings.... cuz it will happily go there

The tires will stick, that won't be a problem I am too concerned about. I'd be curious what howards charges for a custom grind versus a shelf grind. I want to run a 3000+ converter, I like a car that comes alive when the gas pedal is pressed. I've done the oiling mods in that thread in a previous build, not sure I would do them all again, or even any, for a build like this...but who knows, maybe while I am there it makes sense.

 

[273]

If you go with higher gear than smaller cam or larger cam with the deeper gears or just smaller one either way, it really depends on your sense of compromise.

 

[MopaR&D]

For a mostly street cruiser at that weight, first cam (-08) is my choice. If you do go with a 3000+ converter just be sure to get one that stays tight when not wide-open. I think a ~2500 RPM stall would be sufficient but newer custom converters can stall higher and still be tight at part throttle. If the car will see any freeway cruising above 65 mph I would definitely stick with 3.23 or 3.0x gears. The smaller cam will work fine with stock rockers and is probably better for your stock-ish compression ratio which I doubt will be much higher than 8.5:1 with the thin head gaskets and light milling of the heads.

For lifters I'd hit up one of the smaller cam companies like Schneider or Delta Cam and get some from them, all of the big-name outfits get their lifters from the same manufacturer and these days it's a crapshoot with quality; not uncommon to get one or multiple in a set that don't have the faces ground with the correct radius or too loose of tolerances in the hydraulic plungers and end up with a wiped cam and/or collapsed lifters.

 

[OldmanRick]

With what you're using it for and if you prefer a Howards grind, i'd prefer this one.

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360, 318 1800 to 5600 Howards Cams 711651-12 | Howards Cams

Not much gear and lowish compression leads me to go easy on the intake duration. This one has good lift, a 108 centerline and some split for those stock heads and a street exhaust. Should make good torque from just off idle. I might even rethink the stall speed if i chose this one.

Good luck with your project and have fun.

 

[partsmonsta]

The MP 474 RV Cam is one helluva cam for a 360 large vehicle.
Installed it in my 81 Dodge Truck and outran motorcycles with it (not the ninjas).
It has a wicked idle and will need a better than stock convertor to work.
The MP cams are no longer available, but the specs are.
You will never use another cam after you install this one...AMAZING.

 

[Bewy]

The best lifters are the ones in the engine. Have them re-faced & avoid a lifter/lobe failure.

 

[rumblefish360]

Debating between these 2 Howards Hydraulic flat tappet cams for a mostly street cruiser with some strip action (idle quality is not a concern fyi). Engine is a 70's 360 with the following:

- Ball hone rebuild on the bottom end (stock bottom end)
- Stock heads with .028" thin head gaskets (possible milling the heads for compression if in the budget) and speedmaster adjustable rockers
- Air gap intake
- Holley 780CFM carb
- Hooker 1-5/8 headers
- 3700lb car, 3000-3500 converter with manual valvebody

Which cam would be the better choice? Which would create more vacuum? Would either be okay with stock pushrods and rockers, or are the adjustable rockers a good idea on this? I've never done a hydraulic flat tappet build before, only roller and solid stuff. Any one brand of lifters better than another?

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360 1800 to 5800 Howards Cams 711451-08 | Howards Cams

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360 2200 to 6000 Howards Cams 710461-10 | Howards Cams

There’s several problems to your build.

To much converter, unknown gear size and tire, unknown compression, unknown heads and valve sizes but since it’s a 360 and we have to assume stock, we are looking at a 72 cc chamber with 1/88/1.60 valves on a head that flows 200cfm.

Further complications are your worry of vacuum. The 110 is normally a boarder line cam with a few factors keeping it there. So much depends on the love and overlap amount.

The 108 LSA cam I have and the single pattern duration isn’t and should never be a deal breaker as the split duration cam is more focused on extra top end power as it’s asset. At 3700lbs, I would t be worried.

Remember, Howard’s (and any other cam grinder) will adjust the LSA and move ether or both lobes to make it happen for you. If you like the split duration cam more for its duration and lift, you can ask Howard’s to adjust it or ask them which route would be better in the less than ideal combo you have there.

Comp Cams did it for me on my XL285HL with a nominal charge.

All of this is figured you know by now.

 

[92b]

If you are going to mill the heads for compression you might consider milling the deck instead. It has the potential to gain more compression.

 

[mshred]

For a mostly street cruiser at that weight, first cam (-08) is my choice. If you do go with a 3000+ converter just be sure to get one that stays tight when not wide-open. I think a ~2500 RPM stall would be sufficient but newer custom converters can stall higher and still be tight at part throttle. If the car will see any freeway cruising above 65 mph I would definitely stick with 3.23 or 3.0x gears. The smaller cam will work fine with stock rockers and is probably better for your stock-ish compression ratio which I doubt will be much higher than 8.5:1 with the thin head gaskets and light milling of the heads.

For lifters I'd hit up one of the smaller cam companies like Schneider or Delta Cam and get some from them, all of the big-name outfits get their lifters from the same manufacturer and these days it's a crapshoot with quality; not uncommon to get one or multiple in a set that don't have the faces ground with the correct radius or too loose of tolerances in the hydraulic plungers and end up with a wiped cam and/or collapsed lifters.

Im leaning towards the first one as well, and in reality this is to be a cruiser, so I will most likely end up with the gears in the 3.0x or 3.23 range. Using stock rockers means no adjustability....does that mean id use the stock pushrods too? Again, this kinda thing is all new to me. As for lifters, good tips, thanks! Ill try them.

With what you're using it for and if you prefer a Howards grind, i'd prefer this one.

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360, 318 1800 to 5600 Howards Cams 711651-12 | Howards Cams

Not much gear and lowish compression leads me to go easy on the intake duration. This one has good lift, a 108 centerline and some split for those stock heads and a street exhaust. Should make good torque from just off idle. I might even rethink the stall speed if i chose this one.

Good luck with your project and have fun.

I will take a look at it for sure. If I can swing it, im going to try for a set of speedmaster heads on Black Friday, but the default plan is the stock heads. I had a cam in a similar low compression build (8.5:1) and it was duration in the 230s at .050 and it ran HARD for what it was, so im already feeling like the smaller of the 2 I posted is small lol...but I know over camming is easy, so that one may be a contender too.

The MP 474 RV Cam is one helluva cam for a 360 large vehicle.
Installed it in my 81 Dodge Truck and outran motorcycles with it (not the ninjas).
It has a wicked idle and will need a better than stock convertor to work.
The MP cams are no longer available, but the specs are.
You will never use another cam after you install this one...AMAZING.

Duration seems high on that grind. Who still offers those old MP lobes?

The best lifters are the ones in the engine. Have them re-faced & avoid a lifter/lobe failure.

I didnt even know that was a thing. May be another option as well, thanks for that.

If you are going to mill the heads for compression you might consider milling the deck instead. It has the potential to gain more compression.

I had thought about that too, but more than likely unless there is an issue on teardown and inspection, I want to try and avoid machine work if possible.

 

[mshred]

There’s several problems to your build.

To much converter, unknown gear size and tire, unknown compression, unknown heads and valve sizes but since it’s a 360 and we have to assume stock, we are looking at a 72 cc chamber with 1/88/1.60 valves on a head that flows 200cfm.

Further complications are your worry of vacuum. The 110 is normally a boarder line cam with a few factors keeping it there. So much depends on the love and overlap amount.

The 108 LSA cam I have and the single pattern duration isn’t and should never be a deal breaker as the split duration cam is more focused on extra top end power as it’s asset. At 3700lbs, I would t be worried.

Remember, Howard’s (and any other cam grinder) will adjust the LSA and move ether or both lobes to make it happen for you. If you like the split duration cam more for its duration and lift, you can ask Howard’s to adjust it or ask them which route would be better in the less than ideal combo you have there.

Comp Cams did it for me on my XL285HL with a nominal charge.

All of this is figured you know by now.

Several "problems"... lol

 

[rumblefish360]

Several "problems"... lol

Yea, the old work around with what ya got. I get it. Been there done that. It is what it is. It’s not like these parts are candy store cheap as well as not having deep pockets to throw money at the problem, perceives or real, like the U.S. Government does at its problems. (Real or perceived!)

The smaller cam - 220/108lsa is what I’d use and (again) have for a 360 in a ‘79 B body that has 3.55’s spinning 245/60/15’s. The converter is a 2500 in a 727. The Magnum is a bit lighter than delivered, not much. It’s Reggie says 3675lbs. IIRC. Is super close to my ‘73 Cúda in weight. The B body is loaded with everything except a moon roof.

If I was in your shoes, I’d build it as is and perhaps if it isn’t performing the way I would like it to, the converter is probably the item I’d choose to adjust. That’s only one part (though a chore) to swap out.

 

[mshred]

Yea, the old work around with what ya got. I get it. Been there done that. It is what it is. It’s not like these parts are candy store cheap as well as not having deep pockets to throw money at the problem, perceives or real, like the U.S. Government does at its problems. (Real or perceived!)

The smaller cam - 220/108lsa is what I’d use and (again) have for a 360 in a ‘79 B body that has 3.55’s spinning 245/60/15’s. The converter is a 2500 in a 727. The Magnum is a bit lighter than delivered, not much. It’s Reggie says 3675lbs. IIRC. Is super close to my ‘73 Cúda in weight. The B body is loaded with everything except a moon roof.

If I was in your shoes, I’d build it as is and perhaps if it isn’t performing the way I would like it to, the converter is probably the item I’d choose to adjust. That’s only one part (though a chore) to swap out.

Yes sir, you know it. Trying to do it cheap, and once, and kinda think about possible future growth on it while its out of the car as well.

Thats a good plan actually. This car didnt have a tach and I never got one in it before pulling the engine, so I dont even know what it was flashing to, so once I get it running again and with a tach in it, I can go from there on converter.

If somehow I can swing the extra cash around black friday, im going to try for a set of the speedmaster heads. But as it stands with crazy interest rates and a shitty dollar north of the border, the small valve stock heads will most likely get the nod.

 

[MopaR&D]

Im leaning towards the first one as well, and in reality this is to be a cruiser, so I will most likely end up with the gears in the 3.0x or 3.23 range. Using stock rockers means no adjustability....does that mean id use the stock pushrods too? Again, this kinda thing is all new to me. As for lifters, good tips, thanks! Ill try them.

You might be able to use stock pushrods but you'd be better off measuring with a checking pushrod once the heads are on with head gaskets and getting a new set, old factory pushrods often have some variation in length which can do weird stuff at higher RPM.

 

[rumblefish360]

Yes sir, you know it. Trying to do it cheap, and once, and kinda think about possible future growth on it while its out of the car as well.

Thats a good plan actually. This car didnt have a tach and I never got one in it before pulling the engine, so I dont even know what it was flashing to, so once I get it running again and with a tach in it, I can go from there on converter.

If somehow I can swing the extra cash around black friday, im going to try for a set of the speedmaster heads. But as it stands with crazy interest rates and a shitty dollar north of the border, the small valve stock heads will most likely get the nod.

Has a plan evolved?

 

[bigfoot]

With what you're using it for and if you prefer a Howards grind, i'd prefer this one.

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360, 318 1800 to 5600 Howards Cams 711651-12 | Howards Cams

Not much gear and lowish compression leads me to go easy on the intake duration. This one has good lift, a 108 centerline and some split for those stock heads and a street exhaust. Should make good torque from just off idle. I might even rethink the stall speed if i chose this one.

Good luck with your project and have fun.

This would be a great cam.

 

[rumblefish360]

This would be a great cam.

It’s that high stall of the converter that’s killing it all. Even at a reduced torque, the converter still has a pretty high stall.

@mshred - what’s the gear ratio again?

That cam is a super streetable cam. I’ve run 218@050 cams before and there really good for daily drivers and upgraded power.

 

[273]

It’s that high stall of the converter that’s killing it all. Even at a reduced torque, the converter still has a pretty high stall.

Just curious, Why is it killing it?

I get it’s a little much for this level of build, but even a fairly stock 360 gonna make peak tq around the 3000-3500 rpm stall especially with a cam.

 

[OldmanRick]

I can't get into the op's head as far as his tolerance for a ''mostly street'' heavy car. The converter preference and MVB leads me to believe he's looking for more of a hotrod type ride then some of us realize. I've built a few like that myself, but others i've done with good low end torque, a modest gear like a 3.23, and a aggressive timing curve with a lower stall turned into a great stoplight to stoplight beast and i never missed having to jump on the revs every time i wanted to accelerate a little heavy. Just a real nice pull up through the rpm range.

 

[rumblefish360]

Just curious, Why is it killing it?

I get it’s a little much for this level of build, but even a fairly stock 360 gonna make peak tq around the 3000-3500 rpm stall especially with a cam.

I feel like this is “Take my bate” question since the way you reply.
I know you know the answer to this.

 

[273]

I feel like this is “Take my bate” question since the way you reply.
I know you know the answer to this.

I'm not trying to bait you, I'm not looking for an argument, I don't think I know? why I'm asking, I can't see the overly downside unless his converter is super loose and effecting drive ability or something. Converters are one the things I'm the least confident about other than the basics.

 

[rumblefish360]

Total bate reply. Not taking it. Next….

 

[273]

Total bate reply. Not taking it. Next….

Whatever buddy