Bye Bye Big Three?

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rmchrgr said:
I wonder if people laughed at my econobox Valiant the same way.
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Back in the "day", Darts, Valiants, Falcons, Chevy IIs et al were considered disposable cars just like the cheap Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, etc are now. Only back in the :day: those cars had styling and one could tell one make from another a block away. Try that now - right!
 
I don't think the gov. will bail them out.They will all file for bankrupty and I don't care about Chev or Chrys. As long as FORD comes out of it only because I have a lot Ford shares that I had many years. I had them longer than I been married. I been married to the same one for 46 years. Boy I must be an old fart. But still at last count I own 77 MOPARS mostly A bodys
 
2shelbys said:
Several people have hit on reasons why the big three are in trouble but no one has mentioned the main reason. THE UAW. I saw an interesting report this week. It went into some of the reasons why the big three are having so much trouble these days. It mentioned the perceived but not actual superiority of Japanese cars as a small factor. It mentioned the import tariff imbalances-5% on a car imported here and 20% on an American car imported into countries like Japan. It mentioned the impact of government regulation like Cafe standards and safety standards that foreign makers do not have to deal with. But the most telling was the cost of production. It costs the American manufacturers 53% more, FIFTY THREE PERCENT MORE, to produce a car than it costs a foreign manufacturer to produce a comparable model. Why? CEO compensation? Partly, but the disparity between what American CEOs and foreign CEOs are paid is not very big. Materials? No. No real difference there. The biggest disparity in cost? LABOR. That's right. The cost of maintaining the pay and benefits of union workers and former union workers is killing the American auto industry, much like it did the American steel industry. The potential government bailout is not seen so much as a bailout of the big three as it is a bailout of the UAW. Many opponents of the bailout argue that it will only serve to postpone an inevitable failure by temporarily funding un-supportable union labor costs and that it would be more beneficial to let GM, Ford, and possibly Chrysler file for bankruptcy protection or fail completely and renig on the union contracts. A pretty horrible situation and a pretty horrible choice to make. Thanks UAW. What are all those wonderful benefits and pay plans worth after they kill your employer? All the union guys will refuse to believe it and try to cite other causes but the numbers do not lie. Un-supportable union labor costs are the main cause of the potential death of the American auto industry.[/QUOT





Boy did you ever tell the truth ther UAW is about put the BIG THREE OUT
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I read an article a year or so back that stated that each car from the big three is burdened with an additional $2500 per car in employee benefits that the imports aren't. That combined with they have to sell the cars for approximately $2500 less than a comparable import to overcome the perceived inferior quality. That is a $5000 difference that the US manufacturers have to absorb for each car they sell.
 
rmchrgr said:
I agree 100%, but if that's the case, why are the Big Three in such trouble? I'd love nothing more than to see Accords, Camrys etc. GO AWAY. The American companies need to compete for these buyers more effectively or they will go away.
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These cars are actually made here in America, that's how they get around the tarrifs and limitations on imports. THey have somewhat better fuel economy, and are priced better than most products from the big 3. Look at the Scions, you can buy a new Tc for around $18k, they are small and can be tuned up (popular with the younger crowd).
 
dart64gt said:
2shelbys said:
Several people have hit on reasons why the big three are in trouble but no one has mentioned the main reason. THE UAW. I saw an interesting report this week. It went into some of the reasons why the big three are having so much trouble these days. It mentioned the perceived but not actual superiority of Japanese cars as a small factor. It mentioned the import tariff imbalances-5% on a car imported here and 20% on an American car imported into countries like Japan. It mentioned the impact of government regulation like Cafe standards and safety standards that foreign makers do not have to deal with. But the most telling was the cost of production. It costs the American manufacturers 53% more, FIFTY THREE PERCENT MORE, to produce a car than it costs a foreign manufacturer to produce a comparable model. Why? CEO compensation? Partly, but the disparity between what American CEOs and foreign CEOs are paid is not very big. Materials? No. No real difference there. The biggest disparity in cost? LABOR. That's right. The cost of maintaining the pay and benefits of union workers and former union workers is killing the American auto industry, much like it did the American steel industry. The potential government bailout is not seen so much as a bailout of the big three as it is a bailout of the UAW. Many opponents of the bailout argue that it will only serve to postpone an inevitable failure by temporarily funding un-supportable union labor costs and that it would be more beneficial to let GM, Ford, and possibly Chrysler file for bankruptcy protection or fail completely and renig on the union contracts. A pretty horrible situation and a pretty horrible choice to make. Thanks UAW. What are all those wonderful benefits and pay plans worth after they kill your employer? All the union guys will refuse to believe it and try to cite other causes but the numbers do not lie. Un-supportable union labor costs are the main cause of the potential death of the American auto industry.[/QUOT





Boy did you ever tell the truth ther UAW is about put the BIG THREE OUT
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I work for a company with the UAW in it. Guarentee if it wasn't for the UAW, this 108 year old company wouldn't have made it that far. If companies would treat their employees half decent there would be no need for unions.
There have been text books written about how Mack tried to bust the union. If it wasn't for the UAW pushing their way into the southern plant, the company would have went belly up in the 80's. People were fired if they took too long in the restroom. Some people were hired and didn't even know what a pliers was.
Unions have their purpose but they also hurt. Seniority rules, I'll be loosing my job in less than a year. I do my share of work but I see guys with 35+ years do NOTHING... 0% work. They walk around and ***** about the company, talk about their cars, or what they did over the weekend and I'm the one doing the work.
So, before you ***** about the UNIONS..do some research and see how it has allowed people to put food on the table as well, and kept people from working 60 hour weeks for $7.50/hour with little or no benefits. then ***** about the people it does save and shouldn't. You want to *****, ***** about the corporate greed or the European companies buying up corporate america and moving it to mexico or to asia. hell thank our executive office for signing these trade agreements.
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whitey said:
These cars are actually made here in America, that's how they get around the tarrifs and limitations on imports. THey have somewhat better fuel economy, and are priced better than most products from the big 3. Look at the Scions, you can buy a new Tc for around $18k, they are small and can be tuned up (popular with the younger crowd).
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A comparably equipped Accord or Camry stickers about $2000 more than say an Avenger or Malibu. A Cobalt is about $14k base compared to $15.5K base for a Scion Tc. And you can get a Cobat SS or SRT-4 with a turbo that will run circles around any of the Japanese sport compacts for $23k or less.

You have it backwards on pricing the big three vehicles are almost always thousands cheaper than a comparable Japanese car and the difference winds up being even greater when you factor in the rebates and general dealing the big three dealers are willing to do that the Japanses dealers aren't.

You can even buy a Charger for thousands less than an Accord.
 
The Japaneese car companys don't have to pay for health care for their employees. They have universal coverage through the government. They also manipulate their currencey to keep the yen low in value aganist our dollar. I'm sure they get other perks from their goverenment that we don't hear about that helps them compete. I've heard that if they didn't get all those benefits and had to compete like the US car companys. they would have to raise their prices about 20%. Ever wonder why that when our dollar went way down in value aganist the yen this summer that Japaneese car companys didn't raise their prices. Government subsidies. If US car companys got what they get, they wouldn't be in trouble.
Someone mentioned the different work ethic between the two countries and it's probabiy is true. They are a hard working people but they also realize that they have to pay high taxes to subsidize their export driven economy so their industries can compete.
 
America needs to be "Country First" and buy from the big 3 to save America. We know we are ruining our country but no one seems to give a crap.Go ahead and save on your toyota and pay it in taxes to feed the unemployed.
 
First of all, there has never been a foriegn car in my driveway.

Do you guys think that an assembly line worker deserves over 100,000 a year? [-X

Let them file for bankrupcey, reorganize and renegociate their contracts, like the airlines did. If you knew about the sweetheart deals these union guys get you wouldn't believe it. They deserve a fair wage to raise their families but they make twice as much as the college educated. Figure in health care, pensions and I bet half the cost of a car is wages.

I am a strong believer in unions, but they have went too far to compete with the imports.

(I just retired as an audit supervior with the Pa, Dept of Auditor General and my final salary was 62,000.):angry7:
 
I Could'nt See Myself Towing My 8,000 Pound Backhoe With A Tundra.??????????????????
 
$100,000 Autoworker? Must of lived at the plant,don't judge em if you haven't been there.If the union's were to go down in this country(the republican agenda)everyone will suffer.Sorry no rice for me.
 
whitey said:
dart64gt said:
Unions have their purpose but they also hurt. Seniority rules, I'll be loosing my job in less than a year. I do my share of work but I see guys with 35+ years do NOTHING... 0% work. They walk around and ***** about the company, talk about their cars, or what they did over the weekend and I'm the one doing the work.
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Well doesn't that part right there just grab your horns? Why should anyone be non productive and get any pay what so ever? Fire the lazy #@!%#@!%!!!!.
Oh, you can't because the union has stopped the rights of the company to decide what is best for the health of the company...you said it right in your post. Unions have their place, but if it weren't for the employer in the first place, there is no need for the union. And to back up for a second, if it weren't for the consumer of the companies' product...you get the pic.

oh and consumer PERCEPTION is reality...there's some marketing crap to chew on.
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rmchrgr said:
You know, I actually had that in one of my posts, but I censored it because of the **** storm I thought it would create. Oh well.
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Well you know as well as anyone, I have never been one to be intimidated by the gathering of brown storm clouds. I do my research and I speak my mind.

Still, UAW or not we need to have more inspired designs coming out of the design studios rather than trying to imitate the boring Japanese economy model. The G8 GT sedan and the new Malibu are OK. Why is the G8 GT NOT a 2 door? Drives me CRAZY.
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I think some of the best and most unique designs in recent history have come right out of the Chrysler/Dodge line.

Does anyone else like the wheels of the car pushed all the way out? What about cab-forward designs? It's all about aerodynamics these days.
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Cab-forward and pushing the wheels out was an ingenious way to greatly improve handling stability and interior room. That will never go away.

Everything is an aerodynamic, plastic blob and the wheels have no dish. It's depressing. I don't ever remember cars being so indistinct and uninspiring.
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Have you even seen the Charger/300/Magnum line? What about the Challenger and the Mustang?

There has to be a way to design an economical car that is actually cool. How did he WRX get so popular? It's just a shitbox Impreza with a turbo! Where does American car design fail where Japanese and German cars succeed?
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The WRX succeeds because of performance. The SRT-4 was a huge hit too and it was just a nasty neon. Every one we sold went for sticker or more.
 
whitey said:
I work for a company with the UAW in it. Guarentee if it wasn't for the UAW, this 108 year old company wouldn't have made it that far. If companies would treat their employees half decent there would be no need for unions.
There have been text books written about how Mack tried to bust the union. If it wasn't for the UAW pushing their way into the southern plant, the company would have went belly up in the 80's. People were fired if they took too long in the restroom. Some people were hired and didn't even know what a pliers was.
Unions have their purpose but they also hurt. Seniority rules, I'll be loosing my job in less than a year. I do my share of work but I see guys with 35+ years do NOTHING... 0% work. They walk around and ***** about the company, talk about their cars, or what they did over the weekend and I'm the one doing the work.
So, before you ***** about the UNIONS..do some research and see how it has allowed people to put food on the table as well, and kept people from working 60 hour weeks for $7.50/hour with little or no benefits. then ***** about the people it does save and shouldn't. You want to *****, ***** about the corporate greed or the European companies buying up corporate america and moving it to mexico or to asia. hell thank our executive office for signing these trade agreements.
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I am not "bitching" about anything. I am addressing a specific situation, and if you do not see that it is the UAW that is killing the auto industry then it is you who needs to do some research. What happened in other industries or with other companies has no bearing on this situation and doesn't mean a thing.

"Seniority rules, I'll be loosing my job in less than a year. I do my share of work but I see guys with 35+ years do NOTHING... 0% work. They walk around and ***** about the company, talk about their cars, or what they did over the weekend and I'm the one doing the work."
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It looks like YOU are the one "bitching" about the union, while curiously defending it.

Claiming that Mack would have gone "belly up" if not for the union "pushing it's way in" is delusional. If their hiring and firing practices were so bad they would have folded up long before the union ever tried to get involved. That is how the market works. You either produce a good product at a good price and serve your customers well or you die. You can not fire good employees for "taking too long in the restroom" or hire morons who "don't even know what pliers are" and stay in business. And judging by what you said about your own situation, it seems obvious that it is the union, not the company, who is responsible for the retention of useless workers. Exactly the same as the situation at my one union job. Hmmm..... You say that "If companies would treat their employees half decent there would be no need for unions." I have been treated well at every job I have ever had EXCEPT for at my one union job. There, we were screwed by the union, and by the company with the union's full approval, just like your union is screwing both the company and YOU right now.
 
There are some other factors to consider when looking the the problem of The Big Three. Most Americans like bigger vehicles. Just look at the sales figures for the past 40 years. If this is not the case, The Big Three would have gone out of business decades ago. Some buyers prefer higher gas mileage vehicles. Foreign companies offer a slew of such vehicles because gas is artificially expensive in their home countries (mostly due to taxes). What is the problem with building the vehicles most Americans want? CAFE!!! Yes, Big Brother forces the car companies to build cars that the government wants them to build. This forces the car makers to build aerodynamic, not necessarily pleasing to the eye, vehicles. Faggy plastic front bumpers? Yes, that was your government in action, also. Detroit pleaded for years for the government to allow halogen headlights, such as have been used in Europe for many years.

Here is something to chew on. Where is it written in the U. S. Constitution that the federal government has the right to tell us what type of vehicles we can purchase? If I want a 426 Hemi in a VW Bug, what business is it of the government to tell a company that they cannot build it? If some Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-eating, tree hugger wants to drive a shoebox on a rollerskate, he should be free to do so, also.

NO MORE BIG BROTHER! NO MORE NANNY STATE! LIVE FREE OR DIE! DON'T TREAD ON ME! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! angry9:
 
FISHBREATH said:
Faggy plastic front bumpers?
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I think ALL of us would love to see chrome bumpers make a comeback. How about dual carburetors, bias ply tires, Hurst shifters blah blah blah...

IMO, car design of 2008 just sucks, no matter what brand. There's no inspiration, just fuel economy and safety concerns. You can't have inspired design when you're hamstrung by these constraints, they're mutually exclusive. You can try and coax cool things out of these limited parameters, but it's all compromise in the end.

No design in the last 35 years speaks to me on a gut level, like WOW I need to buy that car. For me, the Challenger comes close, but I'm a little too jaded at this point. The prototype was better than the production model, just a much crisper treatment on the whole. I guess very few if any design studies make it to production unchanged. It's a shame.

How do non-gearhead types feel when they walk into a show room? Do they see the same things we do? When someone buys an Accord or Camry are they happy with the whole car or just the idea that they 'don't break down and get good mileage'? Do they care about 'spirited driving'? Likely not if you're buying a Camry.

What would make American cars more appealing to these consumers and get people to snap out of the Japanese econobox haze?
 
well a new R/T challenger.... red in color flu by me this am on my way home from work,,and i dont even like red,, it got my blood pumping,,
 
I love my new SRT 6spd. Nice car for todays standards, I runs low 4's 0-60, top end is in the 175 180mph range and I get 25mpg. So at least some good cars are still being made.

And I like the looks. Also I do not think you can get anything in this price range that can handle or stop like this car.

Anyway I do not know what the solutions are, everyone blames everyone. They build cars people want, the Government has had to much hand as has the unions, but if not for the unions then the folks work for less benifits etc like a non union shop, then some union people are lazy, not most.

Perception sucks, people think imports are great, how can you ay 50k for a freaking Hyndai and 70-80k for BMWs etc when you can get real cars. But then again even the EPA has seperate standrards for US cars on gas milelage, emissions etc.

it is all a joke and just flat sad to see this in this state. It is really going to slam the economy even worse. My daughter works for a senator and the special session went very late last night, and the lOOSER Harry Plastic man Reed did not even allow a vote. So just blame Bush and call it a day. Buis as usuall for the do nothing congress.

They all sux! :bootysha:

shell canyon.jpg
 
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