Camber Gain

[RustyRatRod]

You’re not looking out of the box enough. Understandable, you’re probably not that into it.

The large upper control arm ball joint, K727, is the preferred upper ball joint on most circle track cars.

Howe was the first to offer rebuildable and adjustable K727 style ball joints. The adjustable part was you can set the tightness (lash) between the ball and cup.

Now think of them as modular ball joints. Well they offer different height pins that like 1wildrt described effectively raise the upper spindle pivot point.

examples:

Howe:

View attachment 1715838081


QA1

View attachment 1715838084

Speedway Motors:

View attachment 1715838082 View attachment 1715838083

Correct. You know me too well. You know damn well I'd love to autocross my Valiant, but no way will that kinda thing ever be in the cards for me. Thanks for the 'splaination. lol

 

[TT5.9mag]

Ok, so the control arm is extended, not the ball joint. IMO, these cars don't need camber help near as often as they need help with more caster. I've never seen one that I've ever had problems getting enough camber out of.

Rusty it’s not static camber we are talking about. It’s the amount of camber change relative to the suspension movement and weather or not that change is negative or positive.

 

[autoxcuda]

Taller effective spindle height will change the UCA angle.

While the SPC uppers are nice and do have a lot of adjustment, setting static camber and changing the geometry for more/less camber gain are two completely different things. Although the overall length of the arm can be changed and that does have a slight effect.

I think if you raise the UBJ much, you start to need adjustable length UCA to get to the static alignment numbers you want. I don’t know when that will happen. It will be trial and error for whomever does it. The cam eccentrics only have so much adjustment.

With all else the same, as the UBJ moves up the length of the UCA needs to be slightly longer.

The roll center should move up when the UCA angle’s more inwards. So then you decrease your front roll couple/lever-arm and decrease weight transfer due to body roll.

I think you’ll be limited to how much taller the UBJ is by the clearance inside of your rim. I’m guessing you have high backspace rims that go over the UBJ ?

How much room do you have to work with?

 

[TT5.9mag]

Extending the upper ball joint stud changes the angle of the upper arm relative to the lower and has an effect on the camber curve.

 

[autoxcuda]

There can be a benefit to the longer ball joint stud. Usually stock suspension geometry is designed to keep grandma from driving in to a ditch. Manufacturers have to keep the vehicle predictable and they set them up to react to the natural tendencies of “most” drivers. For instance, the natural reaction to understeer is to lift off the gas, which loads the front end and plants the tires. They can set up the car to be predictable and less likely to go out of control during these situations which may not be (and in most cases isn’t) the best for handling. Setting up your particular car for your driving style and usage (auto cross will be different from open road racing) will be a trial and error type of thing. So the blanket statement of “the longer ball joint stud being better” is subjective.

agreed.

Im taking this as an exercise in maximum lap times only.

Day to day driving tire wear ignored.

A high camber gain setup should wear tires faster than stock geometry. Not for driving 10k miles back and forth to work unless you don’t mind buying a lot of tires.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Rusty it’s not static camber we are talking about. It’s the amount of camber change relative to the suspension movement and weather or not that change is negative or positive.

Yeah, I got it. Thanks.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Taller effective spindle height will change the UCA angle.


I think if you raise the UBJ much, you start to need adjustable length UCA to get to the static alignment numbers you want. I don’t know when that will happen. It will be trail and error for whomever does it.

With all else the same as the UBJ moves up, the length of the UCA needs to be slightly longer.

The roll center should move up when then UCA angle more inwards. So then you decrease your front roll couple/lever-arm and decrease weight transfer due to body roll.

I think you’ll be limited to how much taller the UBJ is by the clearance inside of your rim. I’m guessing you have high backspace rims that go over the UBJ ?

How much room do you have to work with?

I have not even begun to set up my Dart yet. Although it will have factory “style” front suspension with mostly hotchkis parts, I may alter the mounting locations slightly and or build my own uppers and lowers. It will most likely have an 18X10 on the front.
On my falcon I ran the stock front end until I could no longer get the range of adjustment I wanted and I cut it all apart and started over with a mix of TCI stuff and my own stuff. It has 18x10s on the front of it. On that car I have a lot of room to work with now.

 

[TT5.9mag]

agreed.

Im taking this as an exercise in maximum lap times only.

Day to day driving tire wear ignored.

A high camber gain setup should wear tires faster than stock geometry. Not for driving 10k miles back and forth to work unless you don’t mind buying a lot of tires.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[autoxcuda]

I have not even begun to set up my Dart yet. Although it will have factory “style” front suspension with mostly hotchkis parts, I may alter the mounting locations slightly and or build my own uppers and lowers. It will most likely have an 18X10 on the front.
On my falcon I ran the stock front end until I could no longer get the range of adjustment I wanted and I cut it all apart and started over with a mix of TCI stuff and my own stuff. It has 18x10s on the front of it. On that car I have a lot of room to work with now.
View attachment 1715838199

that’s why I mentioned he may need adjustable UCA’s to get to the alignment.

18x10’s …. You aiming for 315/35/18 tires?

Which Falcon is that ? There’s a black 64 in Santa Barbara. A blue 63 I also see on Instagram…?
Those are so much lighter than Mopars.

 

[TT5.9mag]

It’s just an old 63 coupe I bought out in Lubbock Texas 4 years ago. Drove it around stock for a while, did 3 roadkill zip tie drag drives in it and got tired of it being stock. So it got a turbocharged Honda v6, a Miata 6 speed and a Ford 8.8 and now a whole new front end and a bunch of engine set back. Once the front is done I’ll probably 4 link it but I haven’t decided yet. It’s a road race inspired street car. Electric power steering, air conditioning, big hp, blah blah blah. My dart will be a little more serious road race set up.

 

[autoxcuda]

It’s just an old 63 coupe I bought out in Lubbock Texas 4 years ago. Drove it around stock for a while, did 3 roadkill zip tie drag drives in it and got tired of it being stock. So it got a turbocharged Honda v6, a Miata 6 speed and a Ford 8.8 and now a whole new front end and a bunch of engine set back. Once the front is done I’ll probably 4 link it but I haven’t decided yet. It’s a road race inspired street car. Electric power steering, air conditioning, big hp, blah blah blah. My dart will be a little more serious road race set up.

Have you been up to Spring Fling Speed Festival with us at Willow Springs?

 

[racerjoe]

I have not even begun to set up my Dart yet. Although it will have factory “style” front suspension with mostly hotchkis parts, I may alter the mounting locations slightly and or build my own uppers and lowers. It will most likely have an 18X10 on the front.
On my falcon I ran the stock front end until I could no longer get the range of adjustment I wanted and I cut it all apart and started over with a mix of TCI stuff and my own stuff. It has 18x10s on the front of it. On that car I have a lot of room to work with now.
View attachment 1715838199

HOLY MEATS! I wish we could fit that on an A-Body without hacking **** up!

 

[myduster360]

I've never seen an "extended" ball joint for a Mopar. I've seen the offset control arm bushings.

I have them on my Dart
Proforged 101-10298 Proforged Tall Upper Ball Joint

 

[racerjoe]

Taller effective spindle height will change the UCA angle.


I think if you raise the UBJ much, you start to need adjustable length UCA to get to the static alignment numbers you want. I don’t know when that will happen. It will be trail and error for whomever does it.

With all else the same as the UBJ moves up, the length of the UCA needs to be slightly longer.

The roll center should move up when then UCA angle more inwards. So then you decrease your front roll couple/lever-arm and decrease weight transfer due to body roll.

I think you’ll be limited to how much taller the UBJ is by the clearance inside of your rim. I’m guessing you have high backspace rims that go over the UBJ ?

How much room do you have to work with?

Looks like I have about 3/4"-1" before the ball joint would contact the wheel.

I do have adjustable UCA's and they a ton of adjustment to make them longer.

Sounds like the change to SPCs aren't worth the $800 plus another alignment. I'll likely benefit from more seat time and laps around cones. I do need to address the understeer issue, which I think a rear bar will help with.

Again thanks for all the input. I've only got about 30 autocross laps under my belt in my life and they have all been in my Duster. I'm still trying to differentiate between what I'm doing wrong and where the car may need improvement to make me better.
I have a good friend who is a track instructor, which is obviously much different than autocross, but he has offered some good advice. He's also gotten me on the track in a Miata. That opportunity has given me a whole new respect to track drivers. The level of focus is crazy and I was in a slow *** Miata!

 

[TT5.9mag]

Have you been up to Spring Fling Speed Festival with us at Willow Springs?

I have raced our Miata and our Porsche on the the streets and big willow many times. But never been out to your event. One of these days I will make it out. Hopefully in my dart.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Looks like I have about 3/4"-1" before the ball joint would contact the wheel.

I do have adjustable UCA's and they a ton of adjustment to make them longer.

Sounds like the change to SPCs aren't worth the $800 plus another alignment. I'll likely benefit from more seat time and laps around cones. I do need to address the understeer issue, which I think a rear bar will help with.

Again thanks for all the input. I've only got about 30 autocross laps under my belt in my life and they have all been in my Duster. I'm still trying to differentiate between what I'm doing wrong and where the car may need improvement to make me better.
I have a good friend who is a track instructor, which is obviously much different than autocross, but he has offered some good advice. He's also gotten me on the track in a Miata. That opportunity has given me a whole new respect to track drivers. The level of focus is crazy and I was in a slow *** Miata!

Careful those slow *** Miatas run some pretty good lap times.

Me picking up the inside rear at COTA

 

[TT5.9mag]

HOLY MEATS! I wish we could fit that on an A-Body without hacking **** up!

Hacking is my specialty.

 

[autoxcuda]

Looks like I have about 3/4"-1" before the ball joint would contact the wheel.

If you do have adjustable UCA's and they a ton of adjustment to make them longer.

Sounds like the change to SPCs aren't worth the $800 plus another alignment. I'll likely benefit from more seat time and laps around cones. I do need to address the understeer issue, which I think a rear bar will help with.

Again thanks for all the input. I've only got about 30 autocross laps under my belt in my life and they have all been in my Duster. I'm still trying to differentiate between what I'm doing wrong and where the car may need improvement to make me better.
I have a good friend who is a track instructor, which is obviously much different than autocross, but he has offered some good advice. He's also gotten me on the track in a Miata. That opportunity has given me a whole new respect to track drivers. The level of focus is crazy and I was in a slow *** Miata!

Looks like I have about 3/4"-1" before the ball joint would contact the wheel.

I do have adjustable UCA's and they a ton of adjustment to make them longer.

Sounds like the change to SPCs aren't worth the $800 plus another alignment. I'll likely benefit from more seat time and laps around cones. I do need to address the understeer issue, which I think a rear bar will help with.

Again thanks for all the input. I've only got about 30 autocross laps under my belt in my life and they have all been in my Duster. I'm still trying to differentiate between what I'm doing wrong and where the car may need improvement to make me better.
I have a good friend who is a track instructor, which is obviously much different than autocross, but he has offered some good advice. He's also gotten me on the track in a Miata. That opportunity has given me a whole new respect to track drivers. The level of focus is crazy and I was in a slow *** Miata!

What kind of adjustable UCA’s? If it’s got threaded rods to move the two inner bushings in and out… that will work.

I agree a 1/2” taller UBJ isn’t in the top of the list for things that will improve your lap times.

 

[Treblig]

What kind of adjustable UCA’s? If it’s got threaded rods to move the two inner bushings in and out… that will work.

I agree a 1/2” taller UBJ isn’t in the top of the list for things that will improve your lap times.

I installed the offset bushing and it still didn't give me enough to align properly. Then I bought the SPC adj UCAs and it solved the problem. They have threaded rods so that you have unlimited adjustment.

 

[racerjoe]

What kind of adjustable UCA’s? If it’s got threaded rods to move the two inner bushings in and out… that will work.

I agree a 1/2” taller UBJ isn’t in the top of the list for things that will improve your lap times.

I don’t recall the Brad as they are pretty old. They do have the threaded rods in the ends. It’s not heims, rather a normal type polyurethane bushing.
Instead of spending the $800 on completely new UCAs, is just changing the ball joint to the taller one worth the $150-200?

 

[autoxcuda]

I installed the offset bushing and it still didn't give me enough to align properly. Then I bought the SPC adj UCAs and it solved the problem. They have threaded rods so that you have unlimited adjustment.

Hotchkis ones are too. And there should be some others I can’t remember.

 

[autoxcuda]

I don’t recall the Brad as they are pretty old. They do have the threaded rods in the ends. It’s not heims, rather a normal type polyurethane bushing.
Instead of spending the $800 on completely new UCAs, is just changing the ball joint to the taller one worth the $150-200?

Not at this point.

 

[70 Buster 340]

I'll likely benefit from more seat time and laps around cones.
I do need to address the understeer issue, which I think a rear bar will help with.

You don't specify and I can't tell in the first picture if the car if the car is 'pushy' when you are on the brake, rolling or under part throttle?
If it's under braking you're driving in too deep and need to be off the brake at or before the apex.

A rear bar will tighten the car up, not remove the push.

Try lowering the front tire pressures (if it's pushing from the middle off) and/or loosen up the front swaybar. That's the easiest thing to try first.
If you're real serious, loosen up the T bars (springs) and limit your travel using adjustable bump stops. Then tune with shocks and tire pressures.

If it still won't co-opperate from the center (apex) off you'll have to loosen the car up with the gas pedal.

One thing though- I have never done slow speed autocross parking lot racing so take it for what it's worth.... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn one night

 

[72bluNblu]

I don’t recall the Brad as they are pretty old. They do have the threaded rods in the ends. It’s not heims, rather a normal type polyurethane bushing.
Instead of spending the $800 on completely new UCAs, is just changing the ball joint to the taller one worth the $150-200?

Uhh, do those UCA's look like this?

Because if they do, they were made by CAP. And that means they can end up looking like this...

CAP was bought out by QA1. Some of their designs were good (like their tubular LCA's, which are basically the same as QA1 LCA's). But their welding and quality control was dangerously bad. I cracked a weld on my CAP tubular LCA's on my Challenger. No catastrophic failure like the UCA's usually had, but bad regardless.

If you have CAP uca's, you want new UCA's anyway. The second gen SPC's are cool, but for an A-body I'd run the 1st gen ones. I have them on my Duster. Not as spendy and just as adjustable.

As for the camber gain, Steve and TT5.9mag have absolutely nailed it. The only thing I would add is that I wouldn't mess with the ball joint spindle lengths unless I had totally plotted out the suspension geometry on YOUR car. Because how your car is set up will change what you want. Sure, you can get close by looking at a general A-body suspension plot, but changing the upper ball joint height is really a fine tuning thing, so, you'd want it specific to your ride height, the rest of your suspension components etc. I wouldn't change the ball joint spindle height on my car based on Steve's plot, for example.

 

[1WildRT]

Another thing to be aware of when using extended upper ball joints particularly where using them with FMJ spindles the angle of the ball joint stud to ball joint body increases as things get taller... Under full compression that angle increases further... You can reach the maximum angle & when that happens something has to give.... On Fords that happens at about 1.25" & then the stud on the ball joint fails.... Don't know where that point is on a Mopar.... On Fords the fix is an angle plate between the ball joint & control arm....Mopar ball joints screw into the arm, there's no angle plate option....