Which is why I seldom build engines anymore. I build them to RUN WELL with the customer's application. Period. If they want Whiplash this or Thumpr that, they can move on.
Camshafts, idle quality, driveability and LSA-REAL WORLD EXP and OPINION
- Thread starter RAMM
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Which is why I seldom build engines anymore. I build them to RUN WELL with the customer's application. Period. If they want Whiplash this or Thumpr that, they can move on.
....and I made my comment not to take sides or argue. That's how I choose camshafts. Based on how I think they will run for the given application. Now when I was a kid, I looked for the old tried and true GK 480/292 109 LSA. Good cam. Harold Brookshire helped design it. Still we were young and stupid. Had no idea to advance it. Was a dog down low, but boy howdy did they turn on past 3K. lol
joec
Well-Known Member
amen!
joec
Well-Known Member
I believe Iq52 has tried the thumper this or that and wasnt all that disappointed with it.If I were your customer and you didnt listen or explain what was wrong with my selection I would figure your customer service sucks and thats why you arent building many anymore.Sometimes arrogance is your own no. 1 enemy.
joec
Well-Known Member
I believe Iq52 has tried the thumper this or that and wasnt all that disappointed with it.If I were your customer and you didnt listen or explain what was wrong with my selection I would figure your customer service sucks and thats why you arent building many anymore.Sometimes arrogance is your own no. 1 enemy.
Could always explain to the customer the pros/cons of the items in the build, make a recommendation(s), and proceed with the build. If the customer ends up not happy, he can pay you to do it again, but perhaps he'll have more of an "ear" the 2nd time around. 
Money talks, and mine speaks the loudest when it's leaving my wallet
Money talks, and mine speaks the loudest when it's leaving my wallet
Well, that's fine too. Since the "I" around here is the property and shop and tool and equipment owner, guess who that puts in charge? Nope, not the customer. If somebody wants something just to sound good then they can make like a horse and hit the trail. I don't "try" to build engines for anyone. If I am asked, I explain it. If they like what they hear, fine. If not, there are plenty of others to take it to.
And I also don't really care about your opinion. You know what they say about those.
Especially if it's something you enjoy for a little "side money" that you earn at your pleasure.
Exactly. I lick customer butt at my full time job. I'm not doin it on my own time. If that makes me an arrogant SOB then so be it.
I have spoken with Rob in person and through the forums, and despite his hard line approach, have found him to be receptive to opinions, other than his own, when approached with dignity and respect. All of us here are grown-ups, some more than others, but each has a reason for their opinions. Generally I'd rather hear the other opinions before expressing my own. I'm still going to do it my own way, but the next time we have something on our dyno I'll try some of Rosey's ideas, just to check them out. I don't completely agree with anyone here, probably because I still have much to learn.
roccodart440
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It tried the Thumpr. The Muthr Thumpr to be exact. It makes power. 502hp. And it idles like total ****. it's lumpy bumpy mess. sounds like a top fuel drag car. Turns every head on the block.
joec
Well-Known Member
I agree and that was my reasoning,Its my money please talk to me tell me whats wrong. RRR you must have built thousands of engines to have all the answers without question.Yes Opinions are like assholes everyones got one, mine was not put on here for you to care about or not .Yes its your tools your shop and you get to call the shots , no question but every paying customer is not an idiot .Im out of this , not trying to distract from the op original question.Could always explain to the customer the pros/cons of the items in the build, make a recommendation(s), and proceed with the build. If the customer ends up not happy, he can pay you to do it again, but perhaps he'll have more of an "ear" the 2nd time around.
Money talks, and mine speaks the loudest when it's leaving my wallet
RAMM
Well-Known Member
I have tried exactly 2 MuthaJunkers and despise them, I won't use them unless I'm absolutely forced (paid) to. J.Rob
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
The JC Penny logic strikes again. If your selling bras and panties, then the customer is always right.
It's amazing that customers who don't do this **** everyday, want to come in and tell me how to do it. Tell me what you want. I may do it. I may not. In the end, my name is on it. You don't have the final say.
If you were my customer, I'd fire you. Guys like you blame people for your mistakes.
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
You don't RETARD a cam and clean up reversion. Not creating a **** storm. Expressing my opinions. You don't like them. Too bad.
I've never run one. The advertising makes me cringe. It's like a 17 year old kid going into a pawn shop and buying himself a 1' diameter belt buckle that say's. "World's Champion Heavy-Weight Boxer".
..........."full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing".............Macbeth.
And then, I'm the guy who runs a 3-1/2" exhaust to announce my arrival. Is there a difference? Maybe no.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
roccodart440
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Agreed, can't stand it. The owner wanted a radical idle and a dyno sheet that said 500hp.
Got EXACTLY what he wanted.
Doesn't like the vehicle at all anymore. Turns out it isn't so much fun to drive on the street and the 500hp doesn't actually make it fast. Image that...
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Are we men discussing man things or are we snowflakes? I capitalize certain words to draw attention to them
High school is over. You don't need to raise your hand to participate and you can post your opinion and not be wrong.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
It amazes me that guys who have been doing for so long, still think LSA is something you change in SPITE of all other factors.
All of th cam guys I deal with, to a man, the last thing we discuss is LSA. I've said it before, you can't isolate just one function and focus on it like we are talking. Myopathy is bad.
So let's see if we can set up at least a few cones to mark the boundaries.
The first basic thing you need to know is displacement. Then RPM. Then you need to see how the head flows.
Once you have those basics, you can start to make sensible cam timing events. You damn sure won't need the same duration for a 632 as you do for a 572 (considering RPM).
Would an engine that needed 300 degrees of duration to make 7000 RPM with a head that flowed 340 CFM with a port volume of 260 cc's still need that much duration if the head was increased to 280 cc's and flowed 400 CFM?
Not if you wanted to keep the engine speed the same. Right now, we barely have the duration for the intake lobe, let alone looking at exhaust, overlap, reverse flow etc.
Once you have the intake lobe figured out, you have to do the same with the exhaust. And maybe, after you lay out the exhaust, you realize that you need to change something on the intake lobe. And yet, LSA is not even discussed.
Somehow, some people on here think I have said that a narrow LSA is the do all be all end all. I've never said that. I have said, that with certain parameters, I can say the LSA is too wide.
There is no such thing as a narrow LSA or a wide LSA.
Then we can discuss single verse dual pattern cam, symmetrical verses asymmetrical lobes, God forbid we discuss inverted radius lobes. We can discuss split overlap etc. All of this comes BEFORE we ever need to discuss LSA.
When we get to LSA, if we want to make it wider, do we advance the intake lobe or retard the exhaust lobe? Maybe we split the difference?
This is just the TIP of what I discuss before I order a cam. If what I have in my head is different from that the cam guy thinks...then there is a long discussion and sometimes I actually get the actual timing from them and plot it out so I can see it myself.
That's why I stopped picking cams long ago. But neither do I just give the cam guy carte Blanche to do what they want. I want to know exactly what I get before it gets there.
All of th cam guys I deal with, to a man, the last thing we discuss is LSA. I've said it before, you can't isolate just one function and focus on it like we are talking. Myopathy is bad.
So let's see if we can set up at least a few cones to mark the boundaries.
The first basic thing you need to know is displacement. Then RPM. Then you need to see how the head flows.
Once you have those basics, you can start to make sensible cam timing events. You damn sure won't need the same duration for a 632 as you do for a 572 (considering RPM).
Would an engine that needed 300 degrees of duration to make 7000 RPM with a head that flowed 340 CFM with a port volume of 260 cc's still need that much duration if the head was increased to 280 cc's and flowed 400 CFM?
Not if you wanted to keep the engine speed the same. Right now, we barely have the duration for the intake lobe, let alone looking at exhaust, overlap, reverse flow etc.
Once you have the intake lobe figured out, you have to do the same with the exhaust. And maybe, after you lay out the exhaust, you realize that you need to change something on the intake lobe. And yet, LSA is not even discussed.
Somehow, some people on here think I have said that a narrow LSA is the do all be all end all. I've never said that. I have said, that with certain parameters, I can say the LSA is too wide.
There is no such thing as a narrow LSA or a wide LSA.
Then we can discuss single verse dual pattern cam, symmetrical verses asymmetrical lobes, God forbid we discuss inverted radius lobes. We can discuss split overlap etc. All of this comes BEFORE we ever need to discuss LSA.
When we get to LSA, if we want to make it wider, do we advance the intake lobe or retard the exhaust lobe? Maybe we split the difference?
This is just the TIP of what I discuss before I order a cam. If what I have in my head is different from that the cam guy thinks...then there is a long discussion and sometimes I actually get the actual timing from them and plot it out so I can see it myself.
That's why I stopped picking cams long ago. But neither do I just give the cam guy carte Blanche to do what they want. I want to know exactly what I get before it gets there.
joec
Well-Known Member
Guess what ? Im back in .YR one time long long ago on a bb chevy you know what cured reversion retarding the cam from +4 to straight up.Where did you get your answer from Iskys tech tips?If you look at the overlap triangle the exh valve is open more than the int. therefore allowing less reversion.Not that I dont like your opinions because i know your mostly blowing hot air,I just dont like you!!!Most of what you print is bullshit, with your tough attidude your trying to justify being right.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Ok big boy. Keep posting stupid. You prove it every post.
Glad you have a hard on for me. You are just another blow hard know nothing.
How's the golf game going?
BTW, why don't you explain how closing the INTAKE VALVE later helps reversion? I'd love to hear it. Intake valve closing has the greatest effect on reversion there is. And you make it LATER to stop reversion? Ok. I should pay you to tune my **** up. NOT.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
So let me point out where this snowflake is wrong.
If a cam is 4 degrees advanced, the INTAKE valve is off the seat more than the exhaust.
If a cam is in straight up, the INTAKE and EXHAUST valve are off the seat the same.
If a cam is in 4 degrees retarded, the EXHAUST valve is open more than the intake.
This is so rudimentary that it can't be missed. You have no idea what your talking about.
Must be the long long ago thing you screwed up on.
Now go get your blue tights and red cape and show me where I'm wrong.
joec
Well-Known Member
OK tough guy If you advance a cam the intake is open more than exh on overlap , straight up they are open equal, retarded exh is open more than int.If you do a quick check when a cam is advanced the int lifter is always open more than the exh. therefor there is less curtian area on int to try to control reversion .Any other stupid remarks you would like to make?In the meantime go back to your google answers.
joec
Well-Known Member
OP sorry for disrupting a good thread .Im really going to back out now.
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