Carb tuning, larger accelerator pump nozzle?

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So emusions are predrilled 0.028".
Most of the good older Holleys had two holes per channel, each around .026 to .028"
If you're doing three, then they need to be smaller.

What do you guys use to hold the bits? Both holders I bought (Gyros brand) hold the bit at an angle or off center.
I have two pin vises, or maybe three I forget.
One for hand held and the other for holding in a jacobs chuck.
I assume you are drilling brass screws? (as opposed to some sort of plug inthe blocks).
For the set screws I put the set screw in the chuck of a drill I can run real slow. The drill bit (in the pin vise) is in my hand.

All of the traditionally trained machineists and techs I've known use nose grease (yea. snot). Being a kid with a degree (a degree of what I dunno) I've experimented with WD40 and such. LOL. When the tip of the bit starts cutting you'll know it. Yup not too much pressure, it won't cut when bent. LOL

I'll see if I have any photos.
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When you have different sizes (mostly for the IFR) its worth having a box with small dividers or making a storage plate.
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Most of the good older Holleys had two holes per channel, each around .026 to .028"
If you're doing three, then they need to be smaller.


I have two pin vises, or maybe three I forget.
One for hand held and the other for holding in a jacobs chuck.
I assume you are drilling brass screws? (as opposed to some sort of plug inthe blocks).
For the set screws I put the set screw in the chuck of a drill I can run real slow. The drill bit (in the pin vise) is in my hand.
I usually bring the bit in on the hex end.
All of the traditionally trained machineists and techs I've known use nose grease (yea. snot). Being a kid with a degree (a degree of what I dunno) I've experimented with WD40 and such. LOL. When the tip of the bit starts cutting you'll know it. Yup not too much pressure, it won't cut when bent. LOL

I'll see if I have any photos.

Thanks. I'm happy to plug one of the emulsion holes, they are threaded.

Set screws were brass hex, 1/8" long. I made a fixture from a scrap piece of 1" square 6061 aluminum to thread the set screws in with a thru hole on the back side so chips would fall through and the bit not hit a hard surface. Hand drilling worked best. I did it dry so I can feel the grab. Risky but it worked out.
 
Thanks. I'm happy to plug one of the emulsion holes, they are threaded.
That's the easiest!
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Exactly what I did here on this 3 hole block. (Also tapped the top hole to experiemnt with blocking the top instead.)
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Pencil line is bottom the sight plug. So fuel level is there or a little lower (secondary bowl).
 
Most of the good older Holleys had two holes per channel, each around .026 to .028"
If you're doing three, then they need to be smaller.

Why more holes or larger holes can created unstable flow and what higher and lower positions influence is pretty well covered here.
Emulsion Tuning
A couple posts down is graph showing the effects.

Some more tips on drilling in this thread and ones linked within it
How Are You Drilling Your Set Screws?

Novadude has nice pics in his post.
 
I take a piece of 3/8 round aluminum and drill and tap that for 6-32 or whatever size you are drilling. Then I get that in the lathe and turn that while I drill them.

You can do the same with a drill motor. Just stick the drill in a vise to hold the drill, put your brass holder in the Chuck and hit the button that holds the power on and then drill your brass.

I’ve never been able to drill anything with just the pin vise. Of course, I’m old, fat and lazy so there is that.
 
I tapped a #6, #8 and #10 hole in a piece of aluminum bar stock. Then just drill the set screw with a used Chinese tabletop drill press. Carefully center the bit to the bottom of the hex hole and drill away. Works fine down to .023. Maybe I lucked out and got a good chuck and drill press. Don't have a lathe anyhow ;)
 
@Mattax @yellow rose

Well got the IFR moved down. Plugged the top two Emulsion ports (not sure it "port" is he correct term) so the bottom 4 are still open on both blocks. Dropped the primary jet size down to a 68 (stock is 70) as when I was driving it before it would cruse at around 12:1 and added a 35 pump shot leaving the blue cam. Idle AFR was more stable, got the idle curb dialed in and took it for a drive after fully warmed up and still have a lean stumble coming off the clutch. Transition slot is not over exposed, its close to .035-.040" exposed at idle. Thoughts?
 
Lots of thoughts, starting with I wish you changed only one or two things. :poke:
That said I'll try to focus on what I think relates most to the shift into 1st gear.
How much throttle are you using to get/keep the rpms up as you let out the clutch?


(Quick Fuel 650 SS, Mech Secondary) TKO 600 and 3.91:1 gears
Set up A: really bad lean stumble just coming off the clutch. The slower the leaner then it would catch up
71 IAB

Set up B1
67 IAB

Setup B2
33 accelerator pump nozzle on the primary side

Setup B3
White pump cam and adjusted the pump arm, that helped a little,

Setup B4
blue pump cam

The observation "the slower the leaner" was the clue that I think everyone is working from. Very little pump shot should be needed with slow throttle openings. Green or blue should have enough movement right off of idle to cover.

Setup C1
IFR moved down Size? Primary only - yes?
Plugged the top two Emulsion ports (not sure it "port" is he correct term) so the bottom 4 are still open on both blocks.
Call it whatever you like. Tuner was trying to get people to call them something other than "emulsion" holes but e-holes is what everyone seems to use.
Primary & Secondary block
top e-hole. plugged
middle e-hole: .028
bottom e-hole: .028

PMJ 68 (was 70)

Pri Accl Pump: Blue Cam
Prim Shooters : 35

T-slots: .035-.040

still have a lean stumble coming off the clutch. ...Thoughts?

Areas to explore; experiment with:
Primary T-slot. I think with a Quick Fuel as well as many newer Holleys .035 to .040" may be too much for two reasons.
One is they often have longer or wider t-slots than the older Holleys. Try a little less which may involve readjusting the idle mix screws.
Secondary Side: If this is a "two corner" idle mixture control, the secondary t-slots should hardly be visible if at all.

PMJ: Leave it alone. Later you can test under what cruise speed and rpm the PMJs start to have a noticible effect. On my car its close to 3000 rpm, 60-65 mph before the main circuit has really taken over. Your car will be different but crusiing at 30, 40 or maybe even 50 mph will still be mostly on the "transition" circuit.

IFR: Maybe I missed it but I didn't catch the primary IFR size. Taking this up one size should have a big effect. On an engine with somewhat poor idle vacuum, it might need something fairly large like .035" On an engine with very strong idle vacuum it might need to be maybe as small as .028"

IAB: I don't have a starting point or recommendation here without knowing the IFR and the vacuum situation. Make a change but don't be too surprised if it doesn't respond the way you might have guessed.
Here's the thing with a long or wide t-slot, the portion exposed to atmospheric pressure is supplying more air into the mix than an old school holley. Mderoy's posts are always based on his experience and IMO he's tests pretty carefully.

Your metering blocks are probably 3 hole .028, plug the bottom hole on each side on both metering blocks. Leave the 67 IAB in and change the MAB to .031. The overdrive is going to need the AFR a little fat on the upper end of the idle circuit and the 67 IAB will do the trick. Put a 35 nozzle up front and make sure the squirt is instant without bootoming out the accellerator pump. The adjustment is very close on a blue cam 30cc pump. You should not need a blue cam on the secondaries for the street. Orange cam for the secondaries should work. If you are going to restrict the T slot only the primary needs to be done. ...

Lets look at the pictures posted earlier for why its hard to generalize.
Notice the hieghts of the e-holes, the idle and transition feeds from the downwell, and even the connection from the jets is different in each block. In some situations this can make a difference.


Holley Primary block from a 650 vac seconday (List 80783)
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HR 850
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QF 650SS
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Depending on where the fuel level is, I'd probably plug the middle e-hole.
I say that because the bottom hole is still fairly high and the top hole looks about normal.
As long as fuel the main well is at or a drop above the top hole, that should help initialize flow into the main circuit.
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Whether that has anything to do with the issue(s) at hand depends on how much throttle and rpm is needed to make the shift.
Low throttle, low rpm it should not have any effect. The effect is when the mains need to start up and begin taking over from the "low speed" circuits.
Injecting air into the fuel at the top of the well makes that fuel less dense and lowers the viscosity. So now the fuel flows more quickly and the air blowing through the hole speeds its movement toward the booster.

If after systematic experimenting shows the t-slots are two big or too long, then the thing to do will be to is shorten them or restrict the feed to them.
First work through a couple different IFR and IAB combos, especially with a little less t-slot exposure. Then decide.
 
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Injecting air into the fuel at the top of the well makes that fuel less dense and lowers the viscosity. So now the fuel flows more quickly and the air blowing through the hole speeds its movement toward the booster.
Getting a little off topic, but here's how I can best explain it.
Throttle nearly closed, Pressure inside the passage to the booster is same as the bowl.
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Throttle open sufficiently for air velocity through the booster to create lower pressure in the passage.
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Many blocks have an anti-siphon hole in the angle passage. (Sometimes called a kill bleed.)
Although it might slightly delay the start of the mains, it can actually help the flow once it starts.
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Discussion here: Another dogleg kill bleed carb - list 80783, 650 VS
Original drawings and discussion here: More in-depth e-hole discussion (with pictures!)
 
Too many changes at one time crossed my mind. As an Engineer I know that's a "no no". I am keeping a log of changes and noting the effect(s).

Thank you for the info, that really helps.

The stock IFR are 0.032 stock and that's what I made to go back in when lowered.

You make a good observation/point on the transfer slot exposure. Right now the idle is set to about 900, I can lower it to about 750 and get 13 to 15 in/hg of vacuum. I did install a secondary external adjustment screws, as of now the transition slows on the secondary are closed. Doing some reading opening the secondary's to allow less primary exposure seems to be hit an miss on weather it is a good idea or not.

I think for right now I may leave it alone and drop the idle and see if that has an effect. If it does I may reset to stock (leaving the lower IFR) and move the E-holes per @mderoy340 (who I forgot to add to the conversation, sorry my bad) recommendation and reassess.
 
That's decent vacuum.
FWIW as a comparison the Holley 80783 came with slightly over .033" primary IFR and .073 IABs
With .032 IFR a little smaller IAB is to be expected.

Cracking the secondaries. I think some people just go to far simply because they hadn't developed enough experience with what is useful and what can cause problems. If you find it needs a little more air to keep running, then give a 1/4 or 1/2 turn on the screw. On many carbs the bottom of secondary slots are higher than the primary side.
 
post what the carb setup is now. what are the emulsion hole sizes in the metering blocks?
What camshaft, intake manifold and timing are you running?
 
High Speed Air Bleed: 31 (stock)
Idle Air Bleed Size: 71 (stock). Currently 67
Primary Main Jet 70(stock). Currently 68
Primary Power Valve 6.5 (stock)
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 31(stock) Currently 35
Secondary Main Jet 76 (stock)
IFR 32(stock) Moved to the lower position
E-holes .028 as measured 3 on each side. Top two plugged with set screws on both blocks
Blue front pump cam, stock pink in the secondary.


Engine is .060 over 340,
Lunati Cam 10200703
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 226/234;
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .494/.513;
LSA/ICL: 110/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 1800-6200

Speedmaster heads ported and set up by MRL. 2.05 (no that is not a typo) intake vales, 1.60 intake. Zero decked with topped pistons and .034 quench.

Timing is 20 degress initial, 34 total. Have not check when it comes in.

Weiand Stealth Intake. Ports gasket matched, otherwise untouched port and plenum wise.

Timing

All street car, no racing. Full interior etc.
 
Don't see idle speed making a difference, because coming off the clutch you are well above idle speed [ whether 750 or 900 rpm ].
I would reduce the size of the main air bleed. This will bring in the main system earlier because it sounds like there is a 'gap' where the idle cct stops & main system starts.
 
High Speed Air Bleed: 31 (stock)
Idle Air Bleed Size: 71 (stock). Currently 67
Primary Main Jet 70(stock). Currently 68
Primary Power Valve 6.5 (stock)
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 31(stock) Currently 35
Secondary Main Jet 76 (stock)
IFR 32(stock) Moved to the lower position
E-holes .028 as measured 3 on each side. Top two plugged with set screws on both blocks
Blue front pump cam, stock pink in the secondary.


Engine is .060 over 340,
Lunati Cam 10200703
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 226/234;
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .494/.513;
LSA/ICL: 110/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 1800-6200

Speedmaster heads ported and set up by MRL. 2.05 (no that is not a typo) intake vales, 1.60 intake. Zero decked with topped pistons and .034 quench.

Timing is 20 degress initial, 34 total. Have not check when it comes in.

Weiand Stealth Intake. Ports gasket matched, otherwise untouched port and plenum wise.

Timing

All street car, no racing. Full interior etc.
What distributor and ignition box are you using? Does the distributor have vacuum advance? Are you using a PCV valve? What fuel pump are you using? Does it have a return line? Are you using a carb spacer? If yes what type? Where are the float levels set at?
 
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How much throttle are you using to get/keep the rpms up as you let out the clutch?
:poke:???
Big difference if your slipping the clutch with the engine at 900 rpm when going into 1st (almost like a truck), to blipping the throttle at a few thousand rpm shifting say 2nd to third enering a freeway.

High Speed Air Bleed: 31 (stock)
Idle Air Bleed Size: 71 (stock). Currently 67.
Primary Main Jet 70(stock)
. Currently 68 (Return to 70 for now. Reducing the PMJ too much can can effect the flow to the IFR)
Primary Power Valve 6.5 (stock) (Probably will want 8.5 but not relevant right now)
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 31(stock) Currently 35
Secondary Main Jet 76 (stock)
IFR 32(stock) Moved to the lower position
E-holes .028 as measured 3 on each side. Top two plugged with set screws on both blocks (E1-blocked, E2=.028, e3=.028 Yes ?)
Blue front pump cam, stock pink in the secondary. (Probably will end up changing the secondary cam like mderoy suggested. Not relevant yet.)

Timing is 20 degress initial, 34 total. Have not check when it comes in
Need to check the rpms for the timing.
Using a little less initial (17 - 18*) will put a little more heat into the combustion at idle (good thing in this case) but may require letting in a little more air (via the secondaries) to keep the idle rpm high enough it will run. You'll have to refiddle with the primary throttle and idle mix and then the IAB or IFR and IAB. I'd do this next but maybe that's not the best next step for you. Maybe its better to keep working with the current timing and see what changing the t-slot relationship does, then the IAB and so forth. It will give you a better feel for the process (I think).
 
What distributor and ignition box are you using? Does the distributor have vacuum advance? Are you using a PCV valve? What fuel pump are you using? Does it have a return line? Are you using a carb spacer? If yes what type? Where are the float levels set at?

Jegs "Firecore" Distributor with the spring that came in it. Has vacuum advance but not hooked up.

ECU is Mopar Chrome Box

PCV Valve is Wagner Adjustable and I have set it up per the directions (some of the best documentation and product I've ever seen).

Fuel pump is Edelbrock mechanical. No return line or regulator. Not overfilling the bowls. Float height is about 40% of the glass, just under the center Dot.

Spacer is Holley shield seen here:

Holley 108-70 Heat Shield Kit

Spacer is probably 5/16" thick.
 
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:poke:???
Big difference if your slipping the clutch with the engine at 900 rpm when going into 1st (almost like a truck), to blipping the throttle at a few thousand rpm shifting say 2nd to third enering a freeway.

High Speed Air Bleed: 31 (stock)
Idle Air Bleed Size: 71 (stock). Currently 67.
Primary Main Jet 70(stock)
. Currently 68 (Return to 70 for now. Reducing the PMJ too much can can effect the flow to the IFR)
Primary Power Valve 6.5 (stock) (Probably will want 8.5 but not relevant right now)
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 31(stock) Currently 35
Secondary Main Jet 76 (stock)
IFR 32(stock) Moved to the lower position
E-holes .028 as measured 3 on each side. Top two plugged with set screws on both blocks (E1-blocked, E2=.028, e3=.028 Yes ?)
Blue front pump cam, stock pink in the secondary. (Probably will end up changing the secondary cam like mderoy suggested. Not relevant yet.)


Need to check the rpms for the timing.
Using a little less initial (17 - 18*) will put a little more heat into the combustion at idle (good thing in this case) but may require letting in a little more air (via the secondaries) to keep the idle rpm high enough it will run. You'll have to refiddle with the primary throttle and idle mix and then the IAB or IFR and IAB. I'd do this next but maybe that's not the best next step for you. Maybe its better to keep working with the current timing and see what changing the t-slot relationship does, then the IAB and so forth. It will give you a better feel for the process (I think).

I didn't measure all the E-holes, visually they looked the same, but if one was .030 I probably wouldn't see that small of difference. I'll measure them all when I pull the carb off (getting good at that!) again. Yes current configuration is E1-blocked, E2=.028, e3=.028.

I haven't even driven this hard enough to know what the secondary's are doing.

One thing to note. I noticed on my last drive when I parked after driving (still running), when stopped, parking brake on and clutch in, rev the motor to 2k+ RPMs it would dip lean. Go from ~mid 13's to 16-17:1 then catch up. So even a static rev it leans out with no load. These were moderate throttle blips moving my foot on and off for about 1 second. Did it several times and it did it every time.
 
Someplace we've delved into some of the better explanations of why mid and high IFRs are sometimes used. One of those situations that might be relevant for us is to give a shot of fuel during throttle opening. I would think that could be dealt with in pump shot, except of course on vacuum secondaries. That said, I moved the secondary IFRs on my 3310ish vac secondary carb but need more track time to see what's going on.
My thoughts..
It's a stick car, so he should be 28-31 on the shooter aka shouldn't need a huge shot like an auto car... maybe red cam on 2...and he start dialing the PV if he hasn't already to cure the leanness into the mains as the throttle is opened beyond idle oriface.
 
My thoughts..
It's a stick car, so he should be 28-31 on the shooter aka shouldn't need a huge shot like an auto car... maybe red cam on 2...and he start dialing the PV if he hasn't already to cure the leanness into the mains as the throttle is opened beyond idle oriface.
From Dano's description I think the problem is before he gets the throttle even that far open.
@dano You killing me. Spill the beans on what you're doing when this dead spot occurs.
My cousin had an old truck that could be put into without any throttle! I'm betting with your setup its a little different. But this whole question about what circuits are in play can be narrowed down if we have a sense of how much throttle, rpm, and load (gear).
 
From Dano's description I think the problem is before he gets the throttle even that far open.
@dano You killing me. Spill the beans on what you're doing when this dead spot occurs.
My cousin had an old truck that could be put into without any throttle! I'm betting with your setup its a little different. But this whole question about what circuits are in play can be narrowed down if we have a sense of how much throttle, rpm, and load (gear).

Its killing me too, this ain't my first rodeo and have never had an issue like this. The 460 I build with a manual trans and a box stock 3310 Holley I could just let the clutch out and roll and 1st wasn't a granny gear either, 33" tires and 4:10 gears in a 5500lbs 4x4. Have built and tuned several engines with my dad, 410 Merc, his 440 in the Coronet (which has the next step up cam than mine and a 4 speed/3.91:1 gears, he has a 870 Avenger on that), 2300 Ford with a 390 Holley, several 302's, 350's, 360's for friends.

I take that back, I've had this issue once, with a used Edelbrock 600cfm AFB that came with the engine, it would bog off the clutch in my truck with a 351m and 4 speed. Tried to tune it out but ended up replacing it with a 1850 Holley and the bog went away. I chalked that up to worn throttle base plate as the idle would change if you sprayed a water mist near them.

I expected some tuning with this carburetor.

So when stopped, in 1st gear coming off the clutch and applying throttle it dips lean and you can feel the bog, then it catches up. Classic scenario you see all over the net, "X brand carb bogs off idle". Just letting off the clutch slowly on a flat surface it will bog and die with 750 or 900 rpm idle. No power brakes, so no booster leak (been to that dance). Were talking driving around the neighbor hood, going over speed bumps, all the
"daily street driving" things. Top speed of maybe 50mph but you can see and feel the lean in between gears.
 
One thing to note. I noticed on my last drive when I parked after driving (still running), when stopped, parking brake on and clutch in, rev the motor to 2k+ RPMs it would dip lean. Go from ~mid 13's to 16-17:1 then catch up. So even a static rev it leans out with no load. These were moderate throttle blips moving my foot on and off for about 1 second. Did it several times and it did it every time.
Basically this is correct.
Fuel mix should be somewhat rich at idle and lean out as the throttle is opened. Approaching wide open throttle for maximum power (approaching maximum load on the engine) a richer mixture is needed. This was well established emperically a long time ago. See here *

The most basic test for the "Idle" circuit is to slowly increase the throttle opening with no load. For every increase in throttle there should be an increase in rpm and no misses. That check for too lean is from Urich and Fisher's Holley Carburetors and Manifold. Urich was VP of Engineering at Holley. I actually found picking up a small miss that way is difficult. I'd say if it does miss with that check, then the idle/transition is going too lean for sure. The question isn't whether its lean, its whether its too lean.

I can post up some screenshots of datalogs if you want showing this is real, not just something done in test facilities. Although those folks made some damn good engines go.


Now a point here of embaressment for not checking. I've been assuming this was a two corner idle carb without having looked it up.
:rolleyes:
Is your carb a four corner idle carb?
This one? Quick Fuel SS-650 SS-Series Carburetor 650CFM

If so, then the secondary side is in play and has to be dealt with accordingly.
Basically having the secondary idle circuit in play provides a second system, which if basically the same as the primary idle system doubles the fuel flow.
This can be a big help with an engine that has poor manifold vacuum at idle. But yours has fairly good vacuum at idle.
 
So when stopped, in 1st gear coming off the clutch and applying throttle it dips lean and you can feel the bog, then it catches up. Classic scenario you see all over the net, "X brand carb bogs off idle". Just letting off the clutch slowly on a flat surface it will bog and die with 750 or 900 rpm idle
Thanks!
That's what I thought.
So the issue is definately on the very lowest throttle positions - which means the low speed circuits.
 
This is the carb: Quick Fuel BD-650 SS-Series Carburetor Black Diamond, 650CFM

Same as the one you posted, just black.

I started balancing all 4 corners and result was the same. I've almost closed the secondary with 1/8 turn open, and tuned the front, result was the same.

Talking this out brought back a memory. When I was changing pump cams, I had opened the secondary some and closed the primary to idle at around 750. This is when I saw a minor improvement so this may lend some proof to the primary transfer slot being too far open even at .030 to .035 exposed. On the last test I never opened he secondary air and confirmed it was closed (no slot exposed) before the carb went on.
 
Lot's of different advice but here's what I would do if tuning. A lot of folks will disagree but I know this works at sea level on my motor and your setup is very close to mine.
Get the timing curve setup:
- Pull the distributor and install 1 silver, 1 blue spring. Set total mechanical to 6*. A .059 drill bit will work for the key. Every .010 is approx 1*. Set timing to 27*-28* initial.
- Set the throttle idle screws with a piece of paper. With paper between the screw and stop close the throttle down until you feel slight drag on the paper, open throttle screw 1/2 turn. Set primary and sec the same. Place an index mark on both screws, if you need to adjust idle speed turn both screws evenly.
- Carb setup, IFR .032 IAB .067, PJ 70 SJ 78 MAB .031, EML holes .028/blocked/.028
- Fire the motor and get it up to operating temp. Set the float levels to 1/2 way. Adjust the idle mixture screws evenly (1 full turn is probably where you will be) place an index mark on each screw to keep them even. In nuetral get it to idle around 12.5 on your AFR. People run the idle mixture to lean and the stumble occurs. The IFR provides fuel air mixture to the idle and transition slot, when it's lean everyone throws more pump shot to try and fix it.
- The primary jet and emulsion have nothing to do with the stumble you have. The timing and idle/transition circuit is the problem.
- After you do all this you can dial in the pump cam and nozzle size. Use the least amount of cam/nozzle to accelerate the car.
 
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