Well if you're paying for labor, its not even close.
And again, those headers may not fit even with changing to coil over. So more labor then, and/or new headers.
Coil Over vs Torsion Bar
- Thread starter MrJLR
- Start date
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And again, those headers may not fit even with changing to coil over. So more labor then, and/or new headers.
Take out the overpriced Hotchkis TVS and cut the Bergman price in half with a Firm Feel rebuild and the price you listed comes down to $1559. The Front end rebuild kit includes strut rod bushings....The shiny Hotchkis new adjustable ones are not necessary, nor are their way overpriced control arms....OF which the front end rebuild kit includes bushings for the stock arms. A Helwig sway bar is under $200.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
**** then take out torsion bars and the fancy shocks and run stock bars and cheap kyb shocks you'll save even more money.. but that wasn't what the comparison was about..
adriver
Blazing Apostle
A few weeks ago I was in the center lane when a car slowed down right in front of me.
For some reason I "whipped" into the left lane.
I don't know why I would do that.
I'm usually very conservative in my driving.
Maybe I instinctively felt my non ABS brakes would not do the trick that close.
The front end got squirrel right next to the retaining wall, but I was able to straighten it out.
I could not prove it but I'm convinced that MOPAR's torsion bars and "anti" sway bar front end saved my bacon.
That and my front end alignment from the skosh sheet.
I've got this down now.
Fastrax review and alignment questions for the pros.
For some reason I "whipped" into the left lane.
I don't know why I would do that.
I'm usually very conservative in my driving.
Maybe I instinctively felt my non ABS brakes would not do the trick that close.
The front end got squirrel right next to the retaining wall, but I was able to straighten it out.
I could not prove it but I'm convinced that MOPAR's torsion bars and "anti" sway bar front end saved my bacon.
That and my front end alignment from the skosh sheet.
I've got this down now.
Fastrax review and alignment questions for the pros.
KenH
New Member
Great read! If it's okay, I wouldn't mind a few opinions. Here's my preference for my car. Street, handling, cornering, all around abusing. No long tours. It is a 69 dart with manual brakes and manual steering.
Option 1 - I was about to commit to a whole FirmFeel set up (heavy front torsion bars for lowing and stiffness, tubular uca, etc, strut rods, new rear leafs, sway bars front and back, shocks all around, and all the stiffening kits for lca and k frame) - This would allow me to keep previously purchased disc brake conversion kit (already installed) and it would cost me pretty much $5000 CAD even (with taxes and shipping to Ontario). This did not account for any new steering components, which is probably needed. I could sell some stock parts(new in 2018 with the conversion) uca with big ball joint, and be left with used torsion bars and that's about it.
Benefits: Front and rear are done, very few parts left over to sell.
Negatives: I still have to do steering.
Option 2 - Just as I get the finalized quote, a local person puts up for sale, a never installed HDK k-frame kit, rack and pinion steering complete with Willwood brakes, drop spindles, qa1 coilovers, sway bar etc. There is nothing for the rear suspension. Listed for 5900 CAD. Depending on flexibility that price could be negotiable. For arguments sake, let's say I was able to get it for 5000 -5200 CAD - I don't know yet. He bought it a few years ago, never installed it.
Benefits: Steering and front is done. I'd have a front end disc brake conversion to sell, so some recoup there. (UCA with big balljoint, Discs, spindles, LCA, v8 k frame)
Negatives: The rear end hasn't been touched. Needs leafs, shackles, sway bar, shocks etc. I will guess (fairly accurate) at rear costing me 1200-1500 CAD for that. I can maybe get 500-1000 CAD for front end parts left over?
Option 1 - I was about to commit to a whole FirmFeel set up (heavy front torsion bars for lowing and stiffness, tubular uca, etc, strut rods, new rear leafs, sway bars front and back, shocks all around, and all the stiffening kits for lca and k frame) - This would allow me to keep previously purchased disc brake conversion kit (already installed) and it would cost me pretty much $5000 CAD even (with taxes and shipping to Ontario). This did not account for any new steering components, which is probably needed. I could sell some stock parts(new in 2018 with the conversion) uca with big ball joint, and be left with used torsion bars and that's about it.
Benefits: Front and rear are done, very few parts left over to sell.
Negatives: I still have to do steering.
Option 2 - Just as I get the finalized quote, a local person puts up for sale, a never installed HDK k-frame kit, rack and pinion steering complete with Willwood brakes, drop spindles, qa1 coilovers, sway bar etc. There is nothing for the rear suspension. Listed for 5900 CAD. Depending on flexibility that price could be negotiable. For arguments sake, let's say I was able to get it for 5000 -5200 CAD - I don't know yet. He bought it a few years ago, never installed it.
Benefits: Steering and front is done. I'd have a front end disc brake conversion to sell, so some recoup there. (UCA with big balljoint, Discs, spindles, LCA, v8 k frame)
Negatives: The rear end hasn't been touched. Needs leafs, shackles, sway bar, shocks etc. I will guess (fairly accurate) at rear costing me 1200-1500 CAD for that. I can maybe get 500-1000 CAD for front end parts left over?
You missed the point.
The coil-over fanboys do just like you did...reach for the most expensive stuff to try and show that the price difference isn't so much.
Your comparison is flawed.
The factory strut rods are fine. The upper control arms are fine. You can get more caster with the offset bushings OR tubular UCAs from sources FAR cheaper than Hotchkis. You can get sway bars from sources FAR cheaper than Hotchkis. The parts in the "Front end kit" you list would remain unused in your scenario...UCA bushings, strut rod bushings, sway bar link kit.
Besides, these A-body cars are the entry level models, the Mopars that appeal often times to a budget minded enthusiast. Your beloved coil-over setup is an All In proposition while a guy that is tight on cash can improve the torsion bar setup a little at a time as money allows.
You will not go any faster on a road course with your coil-over setup. Spending $5000 to get better header clearance is like blowing $10,000 at a casino just to get the free drinks and a night in their hotel on the comp.
Geri
Active Member
paying for labor- out of the question.I can't even afford myself. the hemi and headers do not know what platform they rest in- if they clear the trans and trans cross member in a B car they should clear in an A car. the subtle difference would be eliminated with the coil over suspension-I hope.
more issues with valve cover clearance than the headers I'd think ,but I haven't yet set it in to find out just how wrong I am. if/when I get far enough along to find all this out I'll post and we can go from there.
more issues with valve cover clearance than the headers I'd think ,but I haven't yet set it in to find out just how wrong I am. if/when I get far enough along to find all this out I'll post and we can go from there.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
i didn't miss any point. this post is a year old and lots gets missed reading it fresh now. go look at my post (#129) and follow the link in it. i was referring to someone that was directly comparing a coil over kit and the Hotchkis TVS with the price comparison. i was also clearing up what someone that refereed to my prices in this thread said.
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Okay. I did miss that. Sorry for the confusion.
I stand by my position in general but I do acknowledge that I did not read the earlier part of this thread, Thank you for clearing that up. We all are capable of learning from each other.
I stand by my position in general but I do acknowledge that I did not read the earlier part of this thread, Thank you for clearing that up. We all are capable of learning from each other.
Geri
Active Member
I did some checking the TTI headers I have fit the A,B and E body cars so- I will soldier on.Well, in that case, buy a different car to fit the headers.
Moparnut1962
Member
All I got to say is this was a great discussion........but I always loved my mopars the way they were built, have had A B C body's and have currently five B and one A body and they will all stay t-bars with mods.
rednesss
Well-Known Member
For some reason, all I can ever do when reading your posts, is wish I was that bicycle seat in your avatar. Mmmmmmm.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I've been watching this thread because I am about to do a coil over front end on my 70 RR, not because of clearance or anything else really, its more because I want to. I already have 2 E bodies with T bar suspension and this RR is pretty much a freak already so I figured "why not". Yes, in the end it will probably cost me more to go this route than stick with stock suspension but to be honest, I don't care. I am not going to a tubular K frame merely because I don't want to, I want to make a front end using the stock K frame and see how it goes. For anyone reading this wondering why or thinking about how much work this will be, my RR already has a tilt front end, snout bars, etc. so it is already hacked up.
In researching this effort, I talked to Hemi Denny (HDK) and he informed me that the #1 issue in this conversion is shock length or better said the lack of potential shock length using the stock shock tower position. His conversion moves the upper and lower mounting points in order to get a usable shock length in the car, in my case this isn't an issue as I can move the upper mount without issue. I am going to be using tubular LCAs and UCAs on this. The trick is to build a positioning system for the LCA since you lose the T bar; HDK has a bracket that takes the place of the T bar and supports the back of the LCA.
For the record I think the stock Mopar suspension is fine, works well and can be made to perform as good as anything else, but since I already have a freak and several other cars, this is my chance to experiment, not to mention I am going to be running a 426 Hemi and I am sure the space provided by not having the T bars will be handy.
In researching this effort, I talked to Hemi Denny (HDK) and he informed me that the #1 issue in this conversion is shock length or better said the lack of potential shock length using the stock shock tower position. His conversion moves the upper and lower mounting points in order to get a usable shock length in the car, in my case this isn't an issue as I can move the upper mount without issue. I am going to be using tubular LCAs and UCAs on this. The trick is to build a positioning system for the LCA since you lose the T bar; HDK has a bracket that takes the place of the T bar and supports the back of the LCA.
For the record I think the stock Mopar suspension is fine, works well and can be made to perform as good as anything else, but since I already have a freak and several other cars, this is my chance to experiment, not to mention I am going to be running a 426 Hemi and I am sure the space provided by not having the T bars will be handy.
lets see some pics!
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Of what? I haven't gotten much done on the RR yet, currently repairing rust.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Just for fun here are some pics.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I have a 68 Cuda FB that might get the same treatment depending on how the RR comes out.. just kidding, I am more than likely going to stick to factory suspension on that one but I am going to GIII hemi.
superchargeddrt
Well-Known Member
I just remember this. The Mopar Action Green Brick Valiant with it's humble torsion bar suspension kicking the asses of Porches, Viper's and Corvettes.
One Lap of America in a Plymouth Valiant
One Lap of America in a Plymouth Valiant
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
oh brother.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
It seems like everyone is intent on determining or trying to make the case of one system being better or more advantageous over the other; you can definitely find benefit and fault with both systems, but let's throw some ideas out there for anyone who isn't as familiar with suspension systems as some (as a caveat, this discussion is focuses on Mopar platforms, not vehicles in general);
TORSION BAR SUSPENSION
PROs:
- Already present, no fabrication required
- Time tested, proven to work
- Decent amount of T bar sizes to be had to modify the suspension as required
- Easy to adjust
CONs:
- Takes up room under the vehicle
- poor T bar selection (or replacement) could result in very poor handling qualities
- Removal/replacement requires vehicle to be lifted
COIL OVER SUSPENSION
PROs:
- Very adjustable via springs and shock selection
- Does not obstruct anything under the car (headers/exhaust)
- Time tested, proven to work (if installed correctly)
- Replacement/adjustment/removal easy to do
CONs:
- Requires a considerable amount of fabrication or replacement of factory components
- limited space for shock travel
- Can be expensive to obtain/install
- Incorrect installation, poor component choice could result in significant issues
So as I look at this issue it stands out that from a simplicity stand point T bars are the way to go, however cars (especially hot rods) are seldom built with simplicity in mind, rather they are an expression of the owner and thus not subject to reason/common sense at times; in other words we build our cars because its what we want regardless of what other may think. It is not that coil over is better or cheaper, its that it is different and in some cases it may be necessary depending on the selected drive train (although pretty much every common engine/trans combo has been successfully installed and ran using the T bar system).
Coil over is neat because the cars didn't come that way and for some this is all the reason required to change, however T bars have proven themselves completely capable of meeting all of the demands required of it ranging from NASCAR to street car and everything in between. I've already explained why I am going to do one, but if the car was not as altered as it already is I probably would be sticking with the T bars.
TORSION BAR SUSPENSION
PROs:
- Already present, no fabrication required
- Time tested, proven to work
- Decent amount of T bar sizes to be had to modify the suspension as required
- Easy to adjust
CONs:
- Takes up room under the vehicle
- poor T bar selection (or replacement) could result in very poor handling qualities
- Removal/replacement requires vehicle to be lifted
COIL OVER SUSPENSION
PROs:
- Very adjustable via springs and shock selection
- Does not obstruct anything under the car (headers/exhaust)
- Time tested, proven to work (if installed correctly)
- Replacement/adjustment/removal easy to do
CONs:
- Requires a considerable amount of fabrication or replacement of factory components
- limited space for shock travel
- Can be expensive to obtain/install
- Incorrect installation, poor component choice could result in significant issues
So as I look at this issue it stands out that from a simplicity stand point T bars are the way to go, however cars (especially hot rods) are seldom built with simplicity in mind, rather they are an expression of the owner and thus not subject to reason/common sense at times; in other words we build our cars because its what we want regardless of what other may think. It is not that coil over is better or cheaper, its that it is different and in some cases it may be necessary depending on the selected drive train (although pretty much every common engine/trans combo has been successfully installed and ran using the T bar system).
Coil over is neat because the cars didn't come that way and for some this is all the reason required to change, however T bars have proven themselves completely capable of meeting all of the demands required of it ranging from NASCAR to street car and everything in between. I've already explained why I am going to do one, but if the car was not as altered as it already is I probably would be sticking with the T bars.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
Fabrication? **** my alter-k bolted right in. I drilled Drilled four 3/8" holes,drove out the pin in the steering column and took a hair of metal off the upper control arm mount. . Hardly call that considerable fabrication.
Exactly. I agree. My Gerst Kit didn’t even need that. I had my gerst installed in less than an hour and a half, including the removal of the old k frame and t bars( though I did simply cut most of that out)
I also dispute the limited shock travel. That varies depending on the kit and what not.
As I’ve said before, if one is going to change out to a coil over front kit, to maximize the coil over system, one needs to do it at all four corners. Then make sure the spring rate is appropriate for the car and run it.
I have had mopars with both setups. This debate is kind of like the 1911 vs Glock debate, it’s never going to end and each has its pros and cons. Ultimately, in the end, go with your guy and ignore any naysayers. Just enjoy what you do have.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
My bad, it should have said "can require considerable amount of fabrication". Yes I understand there are bolt in systems and to be very clear, I was/am not arguing about one system or another, just trying to lay out some of the pro's and con's. You have to admit that the cost of a complete bolt in system is not commensurate with any benefits of the change, not hating on it just saying that the cost is not equal to what you get back except in the intangible of the "cool" factor. Again, my point is not to pit one system against the other, merely to point out that each has it's benefits and drawbacks.
The way I have always looked at cars is probably similar to the way many people do; if I can make it better I always try and do that, the cost is relative to the benefit in most cases. Point in case, I will spend more for a modern 120 amp alternator because I know it is directly beneficial to the amount of power I need to run the car, however I will not pay more for a factory looking one because I do not care about that (obviously some people do which is why the factory looking ones exist). That said, I have (and undoubtedly will) added things to a car "just because" I wanted them and I thought they were cool, neat, sexy and the cost was not prohibitive (for me). As an example, I have 2 EFI 6 pack systems, one SB and one BB. I could have opted for a vastly less expensive 4BBL design EFI but I "wanted" the 6 pack look. It wasn't because it was necessarily better performance wise (probably a big argument in that on one side or the other), it was purely because I like the 6 pack look.
I would argue that coil over front end is essentially the same issue, it is cool but it not necessarily "better" one way or another. If someone feels a need to justify the change, then they are probably only fooling themselves because the Mopar designed system will obviously work just as well and cost probably way less (depending on how it is done), this is of course discounting the requirement to free up the room due to the installation of say a Hemi in an A body or something where space is at a premium.
There comes a time in every car build where the answer to why something is being done/added/altered is just "because", no other reason is needed or required, if you can afford it and want it that is enough.
The way I have always looked at cars is probably similar to the way many people do; if I can make it better I always try and do that, the cost is relative to the benefit in most cases. Point in case, I will spend more for a modern 120 amp alternator because I know it is directly beneficial to the amount of power I need to run the car, however I will not pay more for a factory looking one because I do not care about that (obviously some people do which is why the factory looking ones exist). That said, I have (and undoubtedly will) added things to a car "just because" I wanted them and I thought they were cool, neat, sexy and the cost was not prohibitive (for me). As an example, I have 2 EFI 6 pack systems, one SB and one BB. I could have opted for a vastly less expensive 4BBL design EFI but I "wanted" the 6 pack look. It wasn't because it was necessarily better performance wise (probably a big argument in that on one side or the other), it was purely because I like the 6 pack look.
I would argue that coil over front end is essentially the same issue, it is cool but it not necessarily "better" one way or another. If someone feels a need to justify the change, then they are probably only fooling themselves because the Mopar designed system will obviously work just as well and cost probably way less (depending on how it is done), this is of course discounting the requirement to free up the room due to the installation of say a Hemi in an A body or something where space is at a premium.
There comes a time in every car build where the answer to why something is being done/added/altered is just "because", no other reason is needed or required, if you can afford it and want it that is enough.
Not saying your wrong, but in regards to the price point, that is subjective. When I bought my gerst, I was originally looking at a complete Hotchkiss suspension kit, wilwood brakes front and rear. All told, the Gerst kit actually came in cheaper in the end. Not by much. But the deciding points became weight savings, adjustability and lastly, header room. Now, even over a stock kit, the Gerst kit at the time was just a couple hundred more. It is hard to get an apples to apples comparison between coil over bs torsion-bar setups speaking generally. Gonna have to compare side by side. Don’t forget, a good borgeson steering box alone runs over 600 bucks, that’s 1/5 of the Gerst cost right there. Throw in wilwood brakes, and torsion bars and without anything else, youre at close to 2 grand and still need all the rest of it plus the rear.
In a nutshell, cost more argument doesn’t hold much water when you get away from the cheap, rockauto parts suspension rebuild and start looking at quality aftermarket handling upgrades to the torsion bar setup.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Again, not at all trying to be argumentative or trying to convince anyone of anything. That said, you are comparing the Gerst to a another aftermarket system and in that vein it is apples to apples for the most part, however if you compare it to replacement/rebuild of the stock components it is quite a bit different. A quick look at a Gerst system in basic format with PS and 11" brakes for a A body with a SB is $5K, you could absolutely completely rebuild a stock front end using performance components for less, but is it as good? Thats for the owner to decide but the argument centers around this main point and those who favor stock components will argue it is and cite many examples (such as the green brick), but here again this is probably not a true apples to apples comparison as there are many factors involved ranging from the actual parts to drivers, tires, etc.
My point is merely this, if you want a CO suspension then you should have it, if you want stock type stuff, then go for that. I posted what I did more for the new person who really doesn't know what the want and is looking at the new and shiny as being the best and the stock type stuff being "not as good"; this is not truly the case is all I am saying. The real point here (IMO) is this, can you make a Mopar with stock "style" parts handle and brake as well as possible or do you need a whole new system? I would argue that you can, but that the new stuff absolutely works. In other words, you do not need to spend $5 - $10K to make the car work well. If you need or want the header clearance or have some other reason why a CO system is more beneficial (or just plain "want it"), then so be it, but you so not absolutely "need" it to make the car work well.
My point is merely this, if you want a CO suspension then you should have it, if you want stock type stuff, then go for that. I posted what I did more for the new person who really doesn't know what the want and is looking at the new and shiny as being the best and the stock type stuff being "not as good"; this is not truly the case is all I am saying. The real point here (IMO) is this, can you make a Mopar with stock "style" parts handle and brake as well as possible or do you need a whole new system? I would argue that you can, but that the new stuff absolutely works. In other words, you do not need to spend $5 - $10K to make the car work well. If you need or want the header clearance or have some other reason why a CO system is more beneficial (or just plain "want it"), then so be it, but you so not absolutely "need" it to make the car work well.
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