NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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My question to the OP is what exactly IS the budget?
Crank is shot, do I stroke it or not?
- Thread starter JoesEdge
- Start date
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OP has a lot of parts that would already work on either build.
He already has a 360 flywheel, that's the direction I would likely go.
new bolts and resize is pretty close to a new set of rods that a bunch lighter.
Figure out the true budget and work from there. A lot of this stuff will cancel out going either direction, crank vs crank, piston v piston, etc.
The 268 is going to be a puppy dog in a 408" engine.
He already has a 360 flywheel, that's the direction I would likely go.
new bolts and resize is pretty close to a new set of rods that a bunch lighter.
Figure out the true budget and work from there. A lot of this stuff will cancel out going either direction, crank vs crank, piston v piston, etc.
The 268 is going to be a puppy dog in a 408" engine.
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
Ok, so since we're talking budget.
What if I said the stroker is only a little less than 25% more than the 360 build?
That's with the parts I listed.
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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25% of a 10k dollar budget isn't the same as 25% of a 100k budget. So again, WHAT exactly are you working within budget wise?????
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
Joey doesn't care how much power the engine actually makes...I think he just wants it to run good and be very drivable...like driving to MATS and back and racing it while he's there.
At this point, if we deduct the cost of a machined 360 crank outright, and resizing the stock rods with bolts the Scat 9000 series crank and Ibeam rods are about 850.00 more.
The heads will be stock 360 heads, with 11/32 valves and guides, 1.94 x 1.60 with no port work...not in the budget.
I think for the current gearing and tire size, the stroker makes more sense! What do you guys think??
Brian
At this point, if we deduct the cost of a machined 360 crank outright, and resizing the stock rods with bolts the Scat 9000 series crank and Ibeam rods are about 850.00 more.
The heads will be stock 360 heads, with 11/32 valves and guides, 1.94 x 1.60 with no port work...not in the budget.
I think for the current gearing and tire size, the stroker makes more sense! What do you guys think??
Brian
d100clubcab
Well-Known Member
d100clubcab
Well-Known Member
What kind of power do you think that will make?
With some KB356 hypers or some simple Ross forged slugs?
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
Thanks Brian! It's been hard to decide.
Ross makes some good pistons....especially back when I was working there. ;)
My point was just that things add up quick on these things....and just for grins, I have more that that in my heads, but I built my motor for power.....with a small cam
If you are going to stroke your crank, I wouldn't recommend posting it all over the internet... :color:
Besides, it can make you go blind... :glasses7:
Besides, it can make you go blind... :glasses7:
Since the major difference between the two is the costs of the crank and pistons, I say do it if it is AFFORDABLE. Everything else can be reused except for the flywheel if the new assembly is internally balanced. It will be much easier to replace the carb, headers, gears than a crank and pistons.
[yes stroke or build a mild 440 for less money JoesEdge;1970768230]Ok, so I've been reading info on 408 strokers for days now trying to decide if I should do a 360 rebuild or a 410 stroker build.
Here's what I have:
Intended vehicle purpose:
It's going to be a "daily driver" with a nice balance of performance, street-ability, mileage, and vacuum for power brakes - the goal is to build the car with pro-touring in mind because going in straight lines gets boring, and a spirited drive up to Big Bear or Lake Arrowhead (California) would be fun.
I'm not looking for all out horsepower. It will probably never see the drag strip. Well, maybe once or twice to Irwindale, just for fun. I do admit, I do love low end torque....FYI.
So right now, the engine is at IMM and I was given a choice and I'm having a hard time deciding. Since the crank is pretty much trash, I have to replace it. Brian (IMM) suggested I can either a) replace the 360 crank or b) spend a bit more and stroke it. Also, the heads will be replaced but I forgot to ask with what. Either way, this is a limited budget build so it's definitely iron heads. Also, I'll most likely be keeping the XE268H cam, lifter and spring kit. Oh, and definitely keeping the Air Gap.
Now that you know the limitations of the build, maybe you fella's can help me decide. I pretty much have two routes to go, and here they are:
Route 1:
Rebuild the 360 using replacement 360 crank, heads, pistons, and possibly keeping the stock rods, XE268H cam, with Air Gap intake and Edelbrock 650 AVS carb.
This route would mean I'd probably have to put the 8 1/4" back under the car since I don't have the funds to rebuild the 8 3/4" with different gearing, which is fine because then I don't have to modify my driveshaft either.
I won't have the fun of having all that torque of a stroker, but the money I save could be put towards body and paint.
Route 2:
Since I have to buy a crank anyway, then might as well stroke it. More torque, right? But, will the cam and head limitation make it not worth it?
Since the cam would be considered small for a stroked engine, then that should satisfy my street-ability requirement, no? It should produce tons of vacuum for the power booster as well.
Since the torque will be there, I can most likely still run that 2.76 gear in the 8 3/4" rear end I have and cruise down the highway at 70 to 80 mph (just to keep up with the big rigs on the 710 freeway) without it revving to kingdom come.
Anyway...what do you guys think? I hope I gave you enough info on the intended purpose of the car and what I want out of it to help me decide.
Keep in mind, this is being built by Brian at IMM so either way I feel that I'll be in good hands.
I added a pic so you can see what I'm working with. One of these days, I'll get around writing an official build thread. I have been keeping a picture log, so one of these days.[/QUOTE]
Here's what I have:
- '74 Duster
- 3 or 4 speed manual (came with a 3 speed, but a 4 speed is going in - already built)
- 8 1/4" rear end with 3.21 gears (stock) or B-Body 8 3/4" with 2.76 gears (both peg legged)
- good 360 block but heads and crank are trash (confirmed by IMM Engines)
- bought XE268 cam, lifter, spring kit thinking I was going to rebuild 360 (until realized crank is shot)
- crappy Hooker headers, but hoping to go with either Doug's or TTI (if I can afford it)
- Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap Intake
- Edelbrock 650 AVS carb (because I like AFB's - tune it and forget about it)
- Or, also have a Holley 750 DP (list 4779-9) but hate fiddling with Holleys
- MSD Pro Billet Distributor with MSD 6A box (came with the car)
- wheels/tires - stick with the Weld Drag Lite, or 14" Rallye, or Mustang Bullt (bullits are on the back and welds are on the front now)
Intended vehicle purpose:
It's going to be a "daily driver" with a nice balance of performance, street-ability, mileage, and vacuum for power brakes - the goal is to build the car with pro-touring in mind because going in straight lines gets boring, and a spirited drive up to Big Bear or Lake Arrowhead (California) would be fun.
I'm not looking for all out horsepower. It will probably never see the drag strip. Well, maybe once or twice to Irwindale, just for fun. I do admit, I do love low end torque....FYI.
So right now, the engine is at IMM and I was given a choice and I'm having a hard time deciding. Since the crank is pretty much trash, I have to replace it. Brian (IMM) suggested I can either a) replace the 360 crank or b) spend a bit more and stroke it. Also, the heads will be replaced but I forgot to ask with what. Either way, this is a limited budget build so it's definitely iron heads. Also, I'll most likely be keeping the XE268H cam, lifter and spring kit. Oh, and definitely keeping the Air Gap.
Now that you know the limitations of the build, maybe you fella's can help me decide. I pretty much have two routes to go, and here they are:
Route 1:
Rebuild the 360 using replacement 360 crank, heads, pistons, and possibly keeping the stock rods, XE268H cam, with Air Gap intake and Edelbrock 650 AVS carb.
This route would mean I'd probably have to put the 8 1/4" back under the car since I don't have the funds to rebuild the 8 3/4" with different gearing, which is fine because then I don't have to modify my driveshaft either.
I won't have the fun of having all that torque of a stroker, but the money I save could be put towards body and paint.
Route 2:
Since I have to buy a crank anyway, then might as well stroke it. More torque, right? But, will the cam and head limitation make it not worth it?
Since the cam would be considered small for a stroked engine, then that should satisfy my street-ability requirement, no? It should produce tons of vacuum for the power booster as well.
Since the torque will be there, I can most likely still run that 2.76 gear in the 8 3/4" rear end I have and cruise down the highway at 70 to 80 mph (just to keep up with the big rigs on the 710 freeway) without it revving to kingdom come.
Anyway...what do you guys think? I hope I gave you enough info on the intended purpose of the car and what I want out of it to help me decide.
Keep in mind, this is being built by Brian at IMM so either way I feel that I'll be in good hands.
I added a pic so you can see what I'm working with. One of these days, I'll get around writing an official build thread. I have been keeping a picture log, so one of these days.[/QUOTE]
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
It really doesn't matter what it makes...it'll be quite a bit more than a std. 360 with the same parts! Will it peak early, yep...does Joey care...nope!
When you build an engine for the CAR and not for DYNO #'s you get what you want everytime...I can make 400HP engine out run a 450HP engine if the 450HP engine was built more for the dyno power and not for the CAR!
Ross are not in the budget for this build...and would not make any more power either.
itsnoyfb
416 Stroker Boat
If you can find the extra $800 then go the stroke.
Jamie
Jamie
j par
Well-hung Member
I'm with flyfish on this one. Ok, for a (little more) scat crank and stroker pistons. So NOW anyone will tell you for a (little more) than restoring the old rods, scat I-beams. Your not going to put all these good expensive parts together with cheap bearings and rings are you? NO! for a (little more) good ones. NOW this must be internally balanced ? Only $200-250 labor plus malery - mine used near $100 worth (its expensive). NOW you must replace your externally balanced flywheel and harmonic balancer for internally balanced? NOW for a (little more) a true roller timing chane and gears? For a (little more) a high volume oil pump? NOW to protect this big investment for a (little more) an extra capacity oil pan? Oil pick up sold separately (I think you're getting the hang of it now!?) For a little bit more. NOW you do need gaskets and sealer to hold it together. hold the fort here! I'm putting the carriage before the horse. first we need to hot tank the block, deck the block, bore the block prepped with freeze plugs, cam bearings, and oil pump rod bushing. Now where was I ? oh yeah, you want the ARP bolts to hold the heads on this beast you're building ? when do I need to start on the heads and if the valves are seating properly, and the springs, and good lord knows what? this is just going to be a simple rebuild and make a stroker," no big deal!" lol ask me how I know !
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
Sounds like poor planning on the builders part here...Joey doesn't have that problem because I'm the builder...LOL!
j par
Well-hung Member
Well if joey got a free machine shop and was born knowing how to use it, and given thousands of dollars in stroker parts - i could see how he could make a comment like that. I was just illustrating that the "just a little bit more" parts ad up. AGREED - To think a little bit more for stroker crank & pistons is good planning? From my experience it's delusional.
You can get a re-man 360 crank from Rockauto or Advanceautoparts.com for around $250.00 shipped to your door
I know exactly what you're saying but you missed a couple. Might as well use a good water pump because you don't want to overheat your new engine. Custom length push rods? How about a decent fuel pump to feed the beast?!? Good parts add up in a hurry!
Brian, I wouldn't blame the builder. I knew most of these things going in but they aren't what I would consider necessary for a good solid 360 rebuild. My builder only had to call me once because he was going to go a little over budget on something, and I am still on the north side of $10k.
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
I didn't think actual dollar amount of the builds was important, but I think it's my fault for not stating that the cost for each build was already quoted as a complete deliverable.
I'm totally impressed though that Brian is my advocate and can I really see that he understands what I'm looking for which is a package that works well with the rest of the parts I have. He totally gets it! Makes me feel pretty confident no matter which route I take!
Whether it's a 360 or a 410, I think I'll be happy either way so as long as I can get the damn car on the road. I'm tired of it sitting in my driveway. LOL
It's just tough choosing between the two builds, because means I need to make decisions on other parts such as the axle. For instance, I'm not quite sure how happy a 360 with 4 speed would be in front of a 2.76 gear in the 8.75 axle. Axle sure does look nice with bullit wheels though.
Anyway, some great points were brought up, all of which I'm taking in consideration.
The one thing that weighs heavily is the cost of a good clutch. Those aren't cheap! And I'm hoping to get lucky at MATS and score a good deal on headers.
I'm totally impressed though that Brian is my advocate and can I really see that he understands what I'm looking for which is a package that works well with the rest of the parts I have. He totally gets it! Makes me feel pretty confident no matter which route I take!
Whether it's a 360 or a 410, I think I'll be happy either way so as long as I can get the damn car on the road. I'm tired of it sitting in my driveway. LOL
It's just tough choosing between the two builds, because means I need to make decisions on other parts such as the axle. For instance, I'm not quite sure how happy a 360 with 4 speed would be in front of a 2.76 gear in the 8.75 axle. Axle sure does look nice with bullit wheels though.
Anyway, some great points were brought up, all of which I'm taking in consideration.
The one thing that weighs heavily is the cost of a good clutch. Those aren't cheap! And I'm hoping to get lucky at MATS and score a good deal on headers.
d100clubcab
Well-Known Member
a stoker will be like $8,000 not $800
look at the lists above
maybe $4k just in top end alone
racerhog
RacerHog likes his Mopars
Joey... Dont forget... Spring Fling Mopar show is rite around the corner also...
[ame]http://www.cpwclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Chrysler-Performance-Spring-Fling-flyer-2015.pdf[/ame]
[ame]http://www.cpwclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Chrysler-Performance-Spring-Fling-flyer-2015.pdf[/ame]
Bob, how do you keep posting PDF files in threads? I can't figure it out?!?
itsnoyfb
416 Stroker Boat
Maybe I miss read the earlier post where it was quoted the difference between the 2 builds by Brian was $850 (post #30)..... No overall price has been quoted for either build, just the difference, I did say "Extra 800" - I should have said "Extra 850"
The rest of the build is going to be the same other than the difference in cost between the Scat stroker cast crank, new pistons and Scat rods and the remanufactured stock stroke crank, new pistons and remanufactured stock rods.
If it's going to be internally balanced as a stroker you would rebalance the flywheel and add a neutral balancer at the same time the rest of the rotating assembly is balanced, should be little difference in balancing cost to do the flywheel at the same time as the rest.
The guy's not trying to build a motor with worked heads etc... his choice is go for a mild 360 rebuild or a mild rebuild with 4" stroke for an "extra $850" over the cost of the stock stroke build with Brian doing both builds.
FWIW
Mine is a 71 360 block, Comp hydraulic roller cam, retrofit lifters, Edelbrock heads (Decked to 63cc - they had a 2cc difference between the heads OOTB), Comp dual springs, Manley pushrods, Scat 9000 crank and I beam rods, Mahle forged pistons, PWR stainless 1.6 rockers, Super Victor EFI & fuel rails with 1000cfm throttle body, ARP studs all round, internally balanced (no Mallory needed), Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper, including machine work but without extractors it owes me less than 8k including shipping & GST of most of the new parts from USA to Australia (I brought the crank locally - rest was imported).
The only original parts are the block, main caps and 318 marine flywheel. I do save on labour for assembly by doing it myself.
The EFI Controller, sensors, coils, knock sensors and wiring are from a dead LS1, as I already had them and I already have HP Tuners to program myself.
Injectors are 43lb Bosch which cost me $300.
Extractors are custom stainless shorty water jacketed for marine use and cost $2500. Still need to sort out oil pickup, an electric water pump to run through a heat exchanger, then I'll gap the rings and finish off the assembly.
The extra's sure do add up over the typical carb to pan base stroker engine, but this is an unusual build and involves expensive marine addons and EFI.
Cheers
Jamie
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