Cranks but doesn't start using the key. Starts when using a remote starter switch.

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lamplighter55

lamplighter55

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I have a 1966 Valiant, slant 6. When I try to start the car using the key, it cranks but will not start. If I hook up my remote starter switch with 1 lead connected to the starter relay & the other to battery +, it starts right up and keeps running. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.
 
Has it been converted to electronic ignition, or a better question, WHAT IS the ignition you are using, AKA bone factory stock breaker points, or "some other", or some sort of electronic, and just what is that?

The IGN2 ballast bypass circuit is a great place to start as posted above

HOW THEY WORK (And I **** canned a potential friend who refuses to understand this)

IGN1 is the "run" voltage source at the ignition switch. It is ONLY hot in the "run" position, that is, IGN1 goes DEAD during cranking

During cranking, there are TWO switch contacts which are hot---the "start" terminal which operates the start relay, and the IGN2 contact which runs to the coil+ side of the ballast resistor. THAT is what powers the system for starting, and sends full battery voltage to the coil +
 
moparmarkk said:
when you use a remote starter switch you by pass the neutral safety switch
Click to expand...
But it cranks just fine with the key, it just doesn't fire. It only fires when using the remote switch with the key turned to "run". The NSS only controls the starter relay, not the ignition.
 
What 67Dart said.

Not sure what Professor Fate's point is...

How about a picture? While the illustration may not be exactly what you have under your hood, you can SEE how ign1 and ign2 are wired, and how 67Dart's post applies. It seems hard to visualize for some folks but when you understand that power can go through the resistor in EITHER direction, it is easy to understand how the two key positions (start/run) work.


Mopar 4 pin ECU wiring.jpg
 
Prof Fate's point is that the engine cranks with the key in start, therefore the starter relay is working and the NSS or ground for the relay is fine.
Remy's answer was on point based on the information provided.
 
canyncarvr said:
What 67Dart said.

Not sure what Professor Fate's point is...

How about a picture? While the illustration may not be exactly what you have under your hood, you can SEE how ign1 and ign2 are wired, and how 67Dart's post applies. It seems hard to visualize for some folks but when you understand that power can go through the resistor in EITHER direction, it is easy to understand how the two key positions (start/run) work.


View attachment 1716269048
Click to expand...
Thanks!

THAT DIAGRAM (and there are similar ones) is SOMEWHAT MISLEADING.

At upper right where it says "start position of ignition switch" it is important to realize that they are talking about the IGN2 contact, and that it is "live" in the start position. There has been confusion in the past about older cars converted to breakerless, thinking, incorrectly, that that connection comes from the "start" terminal of the switch.

WHY IS that important? Because you do not want to interconnect the two. The "start" terminal and the IGN2 terminal of the switch are isolated to prevent feedback into the starter relay.

And yeh. The box is powered in "start" by current flowing backwards through the ballast, from IGN2 to the coil terminal, through the ballast, and back into the box.
 
67Dart273 said:
Has it been converted to electronic ignition, or a better question, WHAT IS the ignition you are using, AKA bone factory stock breaker points, or "some other", or some sort of electronic, and just what is that?

The IGN2 ballast bypass circuit is a great place to start as posted above

HOW THEY WORK (And I **** canned a potential friend who refuses to understand this)

IGN1 is the "run" voltage source at the ignition switch. It is ONLY hot in the "run" position, that is, IGN1 goes DEAD during cranking

During cranking, there are TWO switch contacts which are hot---the "start" terminal which operates the start relay, and the IGN2 contact which runs to the coil+ side of the ballast resistor. THAT is what powers the system for starting, and sends full battery voltage to the coil +
Click to expand...
It's a bone stock 1966 ignition. I'm not quite following you, but not enough power to the coil sounds intriguing. Are you saying I'm not getting enough power to coil using the key, but I am using the remote start? Are you suggesting the ballast resister is bad? I thought the symptom for that was that it runs until you let go of the key.
 
canyncarvr said:
What 67Dart said.

Not sure what Professor Fate's point is...

How about a picture? While the illustration may not be exactly what you have under your hood, you can SEE how ign1 and ign2 are wired, and how 67Dart's post applies. It seems hard to visualize for some folks but when you understand that power can go through the resistor in EITHER direction, it is easy to understand how the two key positions (start/run) work.


View attachment 1716269048
Click to expand...
The diagram is a big help. Thanks.
 
You said it was stock, with points, so the diagram is misleading. No power runs through the resistor during start when using points.

What you don't understand about 67Dart273's explanation is what you need to understand to trace the problem. On the back of the key switch is an I2 terminal and an S terminal.

The current path from the ignition switch to the coil is seperate from the current path from the ignition switch to the starter relay.
1719688069065.png


We know current is flowing from the S terminal on your key switch when the key is in start.
We know current is not making it to the coil wire J2B when the key is in start.
So the problem is in the Ignition 2 circuit. Whether its at a connector, a damaged wire, or in the key switch itself we do not know. But those are the places you have to look.
 
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Mattax said:
So the problem is in the Ignition 2 circuit. Whether its at a connector, a damaged wire, or in the key switch itself we do not know. But those are the places you have to look.
Click to expand...
As of yesterday it appears mine has an ignition 2 open circuit issue because it cranks but won't fire. But if I let the key snap back to run real fast some times I get lucky and ignition 1 goes live while engine still spinning and it starts. Once it starts runs perfect. Original '69 ignition switch. New M&H harnesses under hood and new everything electrical wise under hood too. Have new switch coming but gonna have to ohm out that circuit to verify where the problem lies.
 
New means little.
This was an incorrectly made crimp and incorrect terminal on an M&H harness I bought.
It didn't matter until it started to fail. Then it mattered. Using the correct terminal required using the original plastic connector to retain it. Fortunately I had saved the original harness.

The prob with your car could be as simple as a damaged wire or a terminal coming loose.
The terminals are supposed to be retained in the housing with a barb. If those don't catch, then the terminal backs off when the connector is installed.
1719694859113.png


1719694906157.png
 
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@340sFastback

Ohm will ID an open, can miss a weak connection but in your situation seems like a good approach.

FYI -'69 routed the Ignition 1 a little differently than other years* and IIRC has its own one year only ignition switch. I think bezzle and mounting are different than 67-8. Ignition 2 is pretty straight forward - key swith 2 to a cavity in the bulkhead connector, then connector to ballast resistor terminal.




*Ign 1 goes to the VR then to the ballast.
1719697670772.png
 
See if I can simplify

With engine key in the "run" position, and engine running, ONLY the IGN1 "run" terminal of the key is hot out in the engine bay. Depending on car model, this feeds the VR for the alternator, and the ballast and on to the coil

BUT THAT IGN1 GOES DEAD when you twist the key to start. In "start" the start terminal activates the start relay, and the IGN2 terminal is also hot, feeds (brown) out into the bay and goes direct to the coil+ side of the ballast. So IGN2 feeds full batt voltage to the coil during cranking

WHAT YOU SHOULD READ on a meter:

With engine running and charging, and battery charging at nominal 14V, Coil + should read somewhere between 8-12V and this can vary

With engine stopped and key in "run" POINTS MAY BE CLOSED OR OPEN depending on where rotation stops. If points are open, coil + will measure "same as battery."

Bump engine til points close, now you have current draw through points, coil, ballast, back to the "run" contact at the key. Now, coil + should measure (varies) about 6-10V.

With meter on the coil + and coil secondary wire grounded (to prevent engine start) crank engine by twisting the key and read meter. Now, coil + should read full "same as battery." This means that if the battery is pulling down to 11V when cranking, then coil+ should also read 11V. It probably will not, but it should be close
 
Mattax said:
You said it was stock, with points, so the diagram is misleading. No power runs through the resistor during start when using points.

What you don't understand about 67Dart273's explanation is what you need to understand to trace the problem. On the back of the key switch is an I2 terminal and an S terminal.

The current path from the ignition switch to the coil is seperate from the current path from the ignition switch to the starter relay.
View attachment 1716269426

We know current is flowing from the S terminal on your key switch when the key is in start.
We know current is not making it to the coil wire J2B when the key is in start.
So the problem is in the Ignition 2 circuit. Whether its at a connector, a damaged wire, or in the key switch itself we do not know. But those are the places you have to look.
Click to expand...
Wonderful response! Thank you very much. This gives me what I need to begin diagnosing the problem.
 
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