Crazy idea for 318

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Mad Dart said:
I hear you but it's going to need 12:1 compression and alot of head work to pull it off. The cost of higher octane fuel and getting the heads to flow the numbers to do it will more than likely out weigh the cost of the Crank IMO.
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Well, as he said, it's a race car and he also said he didn't care about driveabilty, these 2 factors take your comment of "BUT he'll have to run race gas" and "getting the heads to flow the numbers " out of the argument and make them null and void.

Your "IMO" is just that and doesn't hold water. Porting the heads for either engine will require a lot of work. Pocket porting a head for a stroker is one cost, fully porting a head for a little drag engine is cheaper than getting a stroker crank and pocket porting heads.

While a stroker engine will work less, produce less stress on the engine and a direction I would rather go, this stroker option was not entertained earlier. The OP's thread was on a 318. Are you helping or not? Are you just gonna throw in 2 cents in a direction he did not ask for?

I'm not saying your idea is ill, just not with the program and the comments just become a set of non helping jibber jabber.
 
Mad Dart's opinions are well founded.The OP wanted opinions and a recipe.You cannot deny that to put a 318 up against a 408 will take some magic and a lot of coin.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Well, as he said, it's a race car and he also said he didn't care about driveabilty, these 2 factors take your comment of "BUT he'll have to run race gas" and "getting the heads to flow the numbers " out of the argument and make them null and void.

Your "IMO" is just that and doesn't hold water. Porting the heads for either engine will require a lot of work. Pocket porting a head for a stroker is one cost, fully porting a head for a little drag engine is cheaper than getting a stroker crank and pocket porting heads.

While a stroker engine will work less, produce less stress on the engine and a direction I would rather go, this stroker option was not entertained earlier. The OP's thread was on a 318. Are you helping or not? Are you just gonna throw in 2 cents in a direction he did not ask for?

I'm not saying your idea is ill, just not with the program and the comments just become a set of non helping jibber jabber.
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Sure I am helping, never said it could not get done and I posted a road on how to do it with a 318,!

Jibber jabber? That's BS, I am out there doing the **** I talk, how about you?

You are always talking and starting s**t aren't you? Get over yourself!
 
hi, in NHRA super stock, 318 in a volare runs 11.42, heavy car. in a dodge sebring, runs 10.00's. S/S requires, stock cr, valvesize, port volumes chamber volumes, stock stroke, stock carb [TQ]. you can port, weld ports, yet has to meet correct volumes. any intake is allowed. roller cams allowed any valve train. this motor uses the stock head castings. should look into a S/S style setup. both use a trans brake. just food for thought.
 
Here is a recipe that would get it done, 7500 RPM, and a set of W-2s. Lots of compression, lots of cam, and lots of cash.....
 
I think what everyone is forgetting is:

a 318 IS a 340...with a 3.91" bore....all else the same, block dimensions.
Same 3.31 Stroke....same oiling passages....it would be seriously complicated to achieve your goal with the stock, bore of 3.91"...or .030, or even .060" oversized.

If you were to Bore the 318 Block to 4.04"....and get a set of 340
11:1 pistons, you would have yourself a 340....I dont know why so many people are afraid to bore a 318 .130" of an inch...its nothing really....race or street....if your concerned...fill the lower portion with block filler...race cars only need to run 5 minutes or shortly longer.

At that point, You would need a Double Roller Chain, and tensioner, A new oil pump, windage tray, ARP Head Studs, Cometic Head Gaskets, a set of fully ported RHS X Heads...(although some Aluminum Head Castings could save you about 40lbs), 2.02/1.60 valves, .600" lift springs, 234 @ .050, .580" lift, 110* center cam, Mopar M1 Single Plane equally gasket matched and ported, and a Holley 850DP.... fed by a 8AN, 7 psi regulated fuel system with a return line.

I would use a "loose" 9" convertor that would flash around 4000rpm, and less gear...like 4.10's or 3.91's....and a 10" slick.

I could see low low 11's out of this setup....properly dialed in.
 
I love the idea of big power out of small engines, I have been fighting that battle for years, 318,340,360s back in the day I was happy with the 12s 318 and 340 then I wanted the 11s went to the 360. Now I wanted to get into the low 10s and I built a R3 416 cubs and bypassed the 10s all together and this is in a 71 Valiant 4 spd car 2900 lbs me in it. But has cost the bank in building over and over.
I say get over the need to say" I told you so " because whats after that, you won't have any room to go farther.you say you don,t like doing things twice, you have a car that can run in the low 10s or 9s the way it sits.
Build a stroker and beat him by a full sec. and you will still have room to improve. If you are anything like me the need to go faster will soon get the best of you.
Keep in mind your dad has that room to step it up and beat you back.
 
I think stroking the 318 is a viable idea as it will not be a 318 after you bore it for new pistons anyway,
is it cheating? well...only if you get caught
 
gipperco said:
Yes the car IS set up properly for this as I knew that eventually I would want it to go fast. So I did the chassis build right the first time. Don't like to redo something that I could have done the first time. Decisions decisions. Keep the ideas coming they are helping. I really think that if I am going to do this, I want to do it right the first time. I know the benefits of Alcohol as I crew on a blown Alcohol front engine dragster. But I want to stay with gas EVEN if it has to be race gas or the new C9 that VP has out.
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I think a good number of people would love to see a 318 go fast. Perhaps you can be the guy that proves it can be done.

At this point in this thread, you should have the basic idea of what it would take to achieve your goals. IMO, ported W2s and a .600" lift roller cam will get you there.

There is a set ofW2 Econos with an M1 manifold on Ebay right now. Guy is claiming some good flow numbers with a 2.02 valve which would work with a 318 bore. Price is decent right now with one bid and no reserve, grab 'em up! There are a some other sets available too but these look to be the best deal at the moment.
 
"There are Super Stock GT cars that run 9 second ETs with '318' engines."

better check out what those engines cost.......they are pretty expensive engines...

it is do able..it just going to cost....and you are going to have to spin the hell out of the engine...which will increase the maintenance of the engine..and cost.


need to get car as light as possible...
 
rumblefish360 said:
Your "IMO" is just that and doesn't hold water. Porting the heads for either engine will require a lot of work. Pocket porting a head for a stroker is one cost, fully porting a head for a little drag engine is cheaper than getting a stroker crank and pocket porting heads.
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Where is this response/logic in some of those cylinder head threads? Guys ask about A or B and there are constant yells of option "C". Funny that the reasoning is always about cost, which maddart is also addressing. What's the difference in cost of a grinding a crank and buying a fresh one? Pistons? Gonna likely be something besides off the shelf to get a 12+:1 318... Rods you can use stockers and freshen or buy new, difference? Everything else is the same, bearings, etc., and you can use stockish heads on it and make 450hp.

What's it cost to port a cast iron head to the level required to make the HP he needs. It's not a cheap job. Something like a FAST level or just below is probably on par and those are usually only around $1000+ for porting fromt he pro shop guys before buying any valvetrain items. Ask Dwayne Porter, Brian, Ryan at Shady, even Justin what it cost to port a J head to the 270+ range... I'd love to read those responses.

Interesting dichotomy.

A 318 at 450+hp is going to be a twitchy little byatch, but it's a race car, so how it's cammed doesn't really matter.

Be great to see this 318 finished product.
 
Rebuild The motor to stock do a decent cam with som lobe separation and turbo it... Then you can say. "Well the motor is basically stock"... Lol
 
70aarcuda said:
"There are Super Stock GT cars that run 9 second ETs with '318' engines."

better check out what those engines cost.......they are pretty expensive engines...

it is do able..it just going to cost....and you are going to have to spin the hell out of the engine...which will increase the maintenance of the engine..and cost.


need to get car as light as possible...
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I am in agreement, just saying that it is 'possible'. You know Bob Mazzolini, everyone always sites his Sebring GT car as an example of a quick, "stock" 318. Obviously they have a TON of R + D in that combo, really beyond what the average guy in his garage is likely capable of.

And like is oft quoted here, speed always costs cubic dollars. I think the OP knows what he is getting into, maybe he just wanted to confirm his idea. Gotta say though, the Mopar Muscle mag build ain't gonna get it there.

Once again, ported W2s, roller cam, gears, converter and car as light as possible. That is the only viable recipe here with the stated goals and base he wants to build with. :dontknow:
 
I know that have my work cut out for me and this isn't going to be cheap or easy. I like alot of these ideas. I totally understand that if I do this I will not have any where to go to get faster except a different build on a different motor. I was looking at a BB to start and IF I get to a point that I need to go faster or tired of sharing that you just got beat by a 318 then I will entertain that at the time. I like the stroker idea yet it kinda changes the point. My dads is is a built 360 I think that if I am going to do this that to get my point across that I need to build it as I can to get the point across. It is purely for the I told you so factor here.

I just need to know what parts and combos to look for so that I can start getting a few pieces and then when I get them all pull the trigger. I am in Oregon and Dad is in Cali so I have down time during the winter where he will continue to race year around. I don't plan on telling him my intentions but to just surprise him with the challenge and the gauntlet. LOL
 
Mad Dart said:
Sure I am helping, never said it could not get done and I posted a road on how to do it with a 318,!

Jibber jabber? That's BS, I am out there doing the **** I talk, how about you?

You are always talking and starting **** aren't you? Get over yourself!
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LOL, until below, he was interested in doing a 318. Stick with the program. Get over myself, look in the mirror pal and stop starting fights. I didn't start, you did.

YOU get over yourself in YOUR self righteous ways.

In the end, if he wants to do a stroker, that is OK by me. I don't care. It's his deal. Remember that or did you forget what you have all ready read. Go back and re-read what he, HE wanted to do.

I know what you said (never said it could not get done and I posted a road on how to do it with a 318,!)
Do you remember what I said about the idea of a stroker? Go back and re-read it.

crackedback said:
Funny that the reasoning is always about cost, which maddart is also addressing. What's the difference in cost of a grinding a crank and buying a fresh one? Pistons? Gonna likely be something besides off the shelf to get a 12+:1 318... Rods you can use stockers and freshen or buy new, difference? Everything else is the same, bearings, etc., and you can use stockish heads on it and make 450hp.
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Everybody all ways loves to split hairs on cost effectiveness on a build, then trash you on what you did because you didn't,

1. Go bigger/stroke it
2. Used a Hyd. cam
3.didn't go roller
4. spent to much on a roller cam
5 used a piston to heavy
6. didn't port the head right, (Or use the right head) should have gone to...
7, OMG, can the list go on forever or what?!?!?!?!?!

What's it cost to port a cast iron head to the level required to make the HP he needs. It's not a cheap job. Something like a FAST level or just below is probably on par and those are usually only around $1000+ for porting fromt he pro shop guys before buying any valvetrain items.
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Porting a head,minus valve train, which is going to be a near equal spend since it's all going to be new, unless out of the box is perfect, lets reflect on the cost of that vs. a new stroker crank and the acco. work going into it. Then once you have your stroker set up, on to the head work to power it.

Lets here from the pro's on what the charge for both items. (Of course, price's are different in different parts of the country.)

Interesting dichotomy.
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It all ways is.......

d5667 said:
Mad Dart's opinions are well founded.The OP wanted opinions and a recipe.You cannot deny that to put a 318 up against a 408 will take some magic and a lot of coin.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I must have missed where he said stroker. Can you point it out to me in an earlier post?
Also, and yet again, I didn't disagree with Mad Dart on the stroker being a better idea. (Just re-stating it for the masses and the few how love to start in with me. Just because.)
 
Mad Dart said:
I am out there doing the **** I talk, how about you?
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I'm doing more important things that are on the "Have to do" side of life than things "I'd rather be doing." But now that you mention that your doing....WTF are you doing? I have not seen a time slip, nor do I care, I have not seen you say a blessed word about going to the track.

You wanna blow your horn, then by all means, do so, start up another thread. Post away and school the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here ya go Mad Dart, LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gipperco said:
I like the stroker idea yet it kinda changes the point.
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But, like I said, 3rd times folks, If a stroker is what he wants to do, well alllll righty then. It'll be stroker recipe time. And Mad Dart can blow his horn all day. After all, he's the big man on the block that has been there and done that often right???????????
 
C'mon guys. Let's not fight about this. The op wants to build a really hot teen. I want to see it,and it can be done. Time far you tech's that know to jump in and help. As far as doing all of this,and having nothing left on the table,I don't see it. Build your teen,for all you can,then if it's not enough,stroke it.
 
rumblefish360 said:
LOL, until below, he was interested in doing a 318. Stick with the program. Get over myself, look in the mirror pal and stop starting fights. I didn't start, you did.

YOU get over yourself in YOUR self righteous ways.

In the end, if he wants to do a stroker, that is OK by me. I don't care. It's his deal. Remember that or did you forget what you have all ready read. Go back and re-read what he, HE wanted to do.

I know what you said (never said it could not get done and I posted a road on how to do it with a 318,!)
Do you remember what I said about the idea of a stroker? Go back and re-read it.



Everybody all ways loves to split hairs on cost effectiveness on a build, then trash you on what you did because you didn't,

1. Go bigger/stroke it
2. Used a Hyd. cam
3.didn't go roller
4. spent to much on a roller cam
5 used a piston to heavy
6. didn't port the head right, (Or use the right head) should have gone to...
7, OMG, can the list go on forever or what?!?!?!?!?!



Porting a head,minus valve train, which is going to be a near equal spend since it's all going to be new, unless out of the box is perfect, lets reflect on the cost of that vs. a new stroker crank and the acco. work going into it. Then once you have your stroker set up, on to the head work to power it.

Lets here from the pro's on what the charge for both items. (Of course, price's are different in different parts of the country.)



It all ways is.......



Sorry, I must have missed where he said stroker. Can you point it out to me in an earlier post?
Also, and yet again, I didn't disagree with Mad Dart on the stroker being a better idea. (Just re-stating it for the masses and the few how love to start in with me. Just because.)
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The OP wants to build a 318 to beat his fathers 408-thats where I got the 408
 
Rumble, since when does building an engine to do a certain thing require a timeslip??
When have I ever talked about going to the track? Don't know where you pulled that out of, ohhh from your bag of crap you carry everywhere with you.
 
Mad Dart said:
Rumble, since when does building an engine to do a certain thing require a timeslip??
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I don't know, but, however, you went down the path of shoving it up my kazoo. Trying to at least. You started to pound your chest on doing something and questioning what I have done/been doing. That quote is below.

OH, in fraction there as well.

I am out there doing the **** I talk, how about you?
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When have I ever talked about going to the track?
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Exactly

Don't know where you pulled that out of, ohhh from your bag of crap you carry everywhere with you.
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The only bag of crap is you. And here you are starting in with me yet again and not dropping the problem but only pushing the envelope and smearing the issue at hand into something that is not part of the OP question.

The rest of Mad Darts reply has been edited for vulgarity and has earned himself a warning.
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d5667 said:
The OP wants to build a 318 to beat his fathers 408-thats where I got the 408
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OK, no problem. Then, were on the same page.

HEY! MAD DART, READ ABOVE!!!!!!!

And don't be so upset just because I proved you wrong.... yet again... LMAO once again.
 
'73red-duster said:
C'mon guys. Let's not fight about this. The op wants to build a really hot teen. I want to see it,and it can be done. Time far you tech's that know to jump in and help. As far as doing all of this,and having nothing left on the table,I don't see it. Build your teen,for all you can,then if it's not enough,stroke it.
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I agree. It a shame that I engaged MadmanDart in any words at all since he can not read and throws in help that is off the beaten path and then swears, insinuates, pokes, prods, etc... until it is a smeared topic that has nothing to do with anything about the OP question.

Everybody, I'm sorry, but I did have to stick to my guns just a bit on that the OP wanted to do a 318.

The old MP "Tips" section was basically re-written by me up top. And now that I think about it, yes, W2's should do the job. The list gives choices on the matter and a W5 head was also mentioned.

Considering how for the W5 can be ported out, I thought the Brodix a excellent replacement head for the W5. And so hence why it was mentioned.
 
Don't need W series heads to hit the target with this one.

Gear (4.88-5.13), converter (4500+ and a good one no junk stuff) and hooking it would be the keys.
 
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