Crazy Torsion bar installation procedure

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Danny denial

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So on a Facebook group a young fella reckons the BEST way to set up the front end with slant 6 bars is turn them round another notch and force the bottom arm up and they handle like they are on rails.
I cant believe people think that that's ok.
That amount of pressure on a 55 year old torsion bar.....
Whats the best way to tell him hes wrong, without being to mean?
 
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:rofl:

suregrip.jpg
 
Regardless what the kid does the tortion bar only has a spring rate of so much.

Pre loading the bar could cause it to be over its elastic limit. That could cause it to break or loose it's strength.

Do the right thing, put the right bars on.
 
I'm kinda intrigued on how he's planning to actually do that, since the stock LCA's install in such a way that you can't clock them a hex flat off in that direction. If he's got tubular LCA's he might be able to manage it, but I think then he would find that actually adjusting the ride height would be a real problem.

The issue is you really can't set preload on a torsion bar system. The torsion bar adjuster only sets the angle of the control arm. Once the weight is sitting on the wheels, the load on the bars is just the weight of the car.

So in this particular kids experiment, assuming he actually manages to install the LCA's a hex flat off, the moment he releases whatever mechanical advantage he's using to accomplish the mis-clocking the UCA will be smashed against the upper bump stop. If he sets the car on its wheels and the suspension compresses, well guess what, it's still just the weight of the car on the bars at that point. If it doesn't compress then the load is higher than the weight of the car, but he's got no suspension. And no way to lower the car from the suspension being fully extended either...

I seriously doubt he's actually done this.
 
Why say anything?
Hes giving bad advice to others,
Personally id hate to have a torsion bar fail on the road and put my family and others at risk because an idiot on Facebook recommends doing something that dumb.
 
Hes giving bad advice to others,
Maybe so but like @72bluNblu says; it's a good as impossible to do what he says to do, and you'd have to be pretty dumb in the first place to try it; I mean in ~60 years of T-bar Mopes, nobody has ever promoted it..
But I get your concern, so give him both barrels, lol.
 
Hes giving bad advice to others,
Personally id hate to have a torsion bar fail on the road and put my family and others at risk because an idiot on Facebook recommends doing something that dumb.

I don't think you're following me. The load on the torsion bars is gonna be the same, unless he's somehow exceeded the corner weights of the car.

But the corner weight is going to be more than what he can physically put on the LCA's. For example, I have specs for a '71 Duster that weighed in at 2,997 lbs (lighter than stock) and the corner weights on the front of that car were still 750-800 lbs. He's not gonna be able to put that much load on the bars. Which means, when the car sits on it's wheels the suspension will still compress. Which means the only load on the bars is the load it would have had anyway. Not more. Not less. All that's happened is the ride height is gonna be completely jacked.

So unless he's somehow figured out how to put 1,000 lbs of pre-load on the control arms he hasn't done anything. You can't even put that much load on the bars using a jack under the car unless you chain the car to the ground, because you'd have to exceed the weight of the car to do it!

What he's doing is giving impossible to follow advice. I would be willing to bet he hasn't done this, and even if he THINKS he has it's because he doesn't actually understand what it is that he has done. The only way for him to put more load on the bars than they would normally have, namely the weight of the car plus the additional force from suspension travel, would be to lock out the suspension with over 1,000 lbs of force. I'm pretty sure he hasn't done that. And if he has, well, the load on the torsion bars would be the least of his worries.
 
I don't think you're following me. The load on the torsion bars is gonna be the same, unless he's somehow exceeded the corner weights of the car.

But the corner weight is going to be more than what he can physically put on the LCA's. For example, I have specs for a '71 Duster that weighed in at 2,997 lbs (lighter than stock) and the corner weights on the front of that car were still 750-800 lbs. He's not gonna be able to put that much load on the bars. Which means, when the car sits on it's wheels the suspension will still compress. Which means the only load on the bars is the load it would have had anyway. Not more. Not less. All that's happened is the ride height is gonna be completely jacked.

So unless he's somehow figured out how to put 1,000 lbs of pre-load on the control arms he hasn't done anything. You can't even put that much load on the bars using a jack under the car unless you chain the car to the ground, because you'd have to exceed the weight of the car to do it!

What he's doing is giving impossible to follow advice. I would be willing to bet he hasn't done this, and even if he THINKS he has it's because he doesn't actually understand what it is that he has done. The only way for him to put more load on the bars than they would normally have, namely the weight of the car plus the additional force from suspension travel, would be to lock out the suspension with over 1,000 lbs of force. I'm pretty sure he hasn't done that. And if he has, well, the load on the torsion bars would be the least of his worries.

I used to re-clock the rear trailing arms on the torsion bars on my VWs while converting them to Baja Bugs. The spring rates didn't change, but moving them a spline or two did raise and stiffen the suspension significantly.
 
I used to re-clock the rear trailing arms on the torsion bars on my VWs while converting them to Baja Bugs. The spring rates didn't change, but moving them a spline or two did raise and stiffen the suspension significantly.

Raise the suspension? Absolutely.

Stiffen the suspension significantly? Not on a Mopar. I'm not familiar enough with the geometry of the VW's to really say, but I kinda doubt it.

Torsion bars are linear. So not only can you not change the spring rate you don't get any kind of progressive change either. So like I said above, unless you've somehow induced more load on the bars than the weight of the car (and therefore locked one of the control arms permanently onto a bump stop and eliminated any suspension travel), you still only have the the load of the car on the bars, and the spring rate of the bar is the same.

There is a minor effect on the wheel rate from substantial raising or lowering. Basically because the angle of the lower control arm changes its effective length changes, and because the effective length of the lower control arm is a component on calculating the wheel rate from the torsion bars spring rate you can get minor changes in wheel rate. The effective length of the control arm is just with respect to the ground, so that distance changes if you put an extreme angle on the control arm. But it doesn't change very much. I calculated the total swing in wheel rate from the bottom of the suspension travel to the top of the suspension travel at one point and as I recall it was under 10 lb/in and that was on a 300 lb/in bar, not a 90 lb/in slant-6 bar. And the thing is, that effective wheel rate is always changing, any time the suspension moves up and down the effective wheel rate changes slightly because the angle of the lower control arm changes. All you're doing by changing the ride height is changing the effective wheel rate at the static height, with the same suspension travel range you will get the same variation in wheel rate.

And I've done this, I mis-clocked the torsion bars on my Challenger when I first installed my tubular LCA's and 1.12" torsion bars. It was my first Mopar and of course I changed a bunch of stuff. So when I followed the manual, and advice from everyone online, and installed the LCA with it "hanging all the way down" I unintentionally was a hex flat off. With a stock LCA, when it's "hanging all the way down" it hits the K frame before it hangs perpendicular to the ground. With a tubular LCA, well, the narrow width means it will literally hang so it's pointed straight down. The result was that the ride height was obscenely high and couldn't be lowered further with the adjusters. But even with 270 lb/in torsion bars it didn't lock out the suspension. But like I said, that was with tubular LCA's and 1.12" torsion bars which are clocked differently than stock.

With stock LCA's and factory torsion bars you don't really have a hex flat available in the direction that the "kid on the internet" is talking about. You'd have to force the LCA past the K frame somehow so it would hang straight down. But even then, with a hex flat off on a slant 6 bar, all you'd probably accomplish is offsetting the sag in the bar from being 50 years old. It wouldn't change anything else, the spring rate of the bar is the same, the wheel rate of the car would remain within it's usual range, possibly at a slightly different rate than it was at a lower height but the change would only be a few lbs/in, and it would still be an effective rate the car would have when the suspension traveled through that height.

This is literally determined by physics and the geometry of the suspension and it can all be calculated pretty easily. The "kid" hasn't accomplished anything special, and he certainly hasn't significantly improved the wheel rate. Although he may have sacrificed the best geometry if he's raised the car.
 
This kind of stuff is why I don't participate in any car-related FB groups anymore. Always some clueless moron who thinks he's a genius with 120 years of experience telling everyone how to do things the wrong way. You could spend your entire life trying to correct them but there are so many and they don't know when to shut up and leave it to people who actually know what they're doing. I tell that to my other car buddies and they're like "but forums are dead" and I just say, mine isn't!! FABO is the only place I bother asking or answering questions! :usflag:
 
Raise the suspension? Absolutely.

Stiffen the suspension significantly? Not on a Mopar. I'm not familiar enough with the geometry of the VW's to really say, but I kinda doubt it.

Torsion bars are linear. So not only can you not change the spring rate you don't get any kind of progressive change either. So like I said above, unless you've somehow induced more load on the bars than the weight of the car (and therefore locked one of the control arms permanently onto a bump stop and eliminated any suspension travel), you still only have the the load of the car on the bars, and the spring rate of the bar is the same.

There is a minor effect on the wheel rate from substantial raising or lowering. Basically because the angle of the lower control arm changes its effective length changes, and because the effective length of the lower control arm is a component on calculating the wheel rate from the torsion bars spring rate you can get minor changes in wheel rate. The effective length of the control arm is just with respect to the ground, so that distance changes if you put an extreme angle on the control arm. But it doesn't change very much. I calculated the total swing in wheel rate from the bottom of the suspension travel to the top of the suspension travel at one point and as I recall it was under 10 lb/in and that was on a 300 lb/in bar, not a 90 lb/in slant-6 bar. And the thing is, that effective wheel rate is always changing, any time the suspension moves up and down the effective wheel rate changes slightly because the angle of the lower control arm changes. All you're doing by changing the ride height is changing the effective wheel rate at the static height, with the same suspension travel range you will get the same variation in wheel rate.

And I've done this, I mis-clocked the torsion bars on my Challenger when I first installed my tubular LCA's and 1.12" torsion bars. It was my first Mopar and of course I changed a bunch of stuff. So when I followed the manual, and advice from everyone online, and installed the LCA with it "hanging all the way down" I unintentionally was a hex flat off. With a stock LCA, when it's "hanging all the way down" it hits the K frame before it hangs perpendicular to the ground. With a tubular LCA, well, the narrow width means it will literally hang so it's pointed straight down. The result was that the ride height was obscenely high and couldn't be lowered further with the adjusters. But even with 270 lb/in torsion bars it didn't lock out the suspension. But like I said, that was with tubular LCA's and 1.12" torsion bars which are clocked differently than stock.

With stock LCA's and factory torsion bars you don't really have a hex flat available in the direction that the "kid on the internet" is talking about. You'd have to force the LCA past the K frame somehow so it would hang straight down. But even then, with a hex flat off on a slant 6 bar, all you'd probably accomplish is offsetting the sag in the bar from being 50 years old. It wouldn't change anything else, the spring rate of the bar is the same, the wheel rate of the car would remain within it's usual range, possibly at a slightly different rate than it was at a lower height but the change would only be a few lbs/in, and it would still be an effective rate the car would have when the suspension traveled through that height.

This is literally determined by physics and the geometry of the suspension and it can all be calculated pretty easily. The "kid" hasn't accomplished anything special, and he certainly hasn't significantly improved the wheel rate. Although he may have sacrificed the best geometry if he's raised the car.
In the stock position, the rear suspension was not fully extended with the vehicle's weight on it. The torsion bar would slide right out for disassembly.

After reclocking to pre-load the torsion bars, I had to use a floor jack with a chain to put the trailing arm back into place. Once everything was reassembled with the trailing arm was fully extended, it took significantly more downward force to get the suspension to compress and the ride was much stiffer.

I understand the spring rate on torsion bars is linear, and I believe having the bar pre-loaded as opposed to not pre-loading is what is contributing to the increased stiffness.
 
In the stock position, the rear suspension was not fully extended with the vehicle's weight on it. The torsion bar would slide right out for disassembly.

After reclocking to pre-load the torsion bars, I had to use a floor jack with a chain to put the trailing arm back into place. Once everything was reassembled with the trailing arm was fully extended, it took significantly more downward force to get the suspension to compress and the ride was much stiffer.

I understand the spring rate on torsion bars is linear, and I believe having the bar pre-loaded as opposed to not pre-loading is what is contributing to the increased stiffness.

As I said, I’m not really familiar enough with the VW stuff to really comment on what does or doesn’t work on a VW, there could be a way to accomplish preload in that system I’m not aware of. Probably shouldn’t have speculated.

On a Mopar suspension, if the control arms come off the bump stops the load on the bars is just the weight of the car and the spring rate is the same, so only the ride height is effected. I’ve clocked the bars on a Mopar a flat off, it doesn’t work the way the that’s described by the “kid on Facebook”.

Although arguing with him is probably also a waste of time, since he doesn’t seem to have a good grasp on how the suspension actually functions.
 
Why say anything?
Sage advice. Listen to this fella.
Hes giving bad advice to others,
Personally id hate to have a torsion bar fail on the road and put my family and others at risk because an idiot on Facebook recommends doing something that dumb.
Even better advice.... Some of the best you'll ever get: sign out of Facebook, and don't go back.

The problem with arguing with fools is, from a distance nobody can tell who is who.
 
As I said, I’m not really familiar enough with the VW stuff to really comment on what does or doesn’t work on a VW, there could be a way to accomplish preload in that system I’m not aware of. Probably shouldn’t have speculated.

On a Mopar suspension, if the control arms come off the bump stops the load on the bars is just the weight of the car and the spring rate is the same, so only the ride height is effected. I’ve clocked the bars on a Mopar a flat off, it doesn’t work the way the that’s described by the “kid on Facebook”.

Although arguing with him is probably also a waste of time, since he doesn’t seem to have a good grasp on how the suspension actually functions.
No, no, I've always enjoy reading your posts regarding suspensions etc, and consider your knowledge of the subject top shelf. I often learn a lot from your posts. Carry on.
 
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