dart headers

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justswinger

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i am wanting to install headers on a 70 Dart Swinger with a small block auto with ps & ac is there a header that fits better than others or do they all have issues going in
 
Dougs or tti are the only two choices for stuff that doesn't hang below the steering centerlink

I like dougs D453 best, great fit and less $ than tti
 
I would spend the extra money on TTI's. Just installed Doug's D453 on my Demon and would not reccomend them to my worst enemy.
Poor fit and finish. Ugly, weak looking welds. Even the bolt holes in the flanges were off.
Lots of modifying and fabricating to get them to fit decently.

I've done some pretty rough header intalls over the years, but these were by far the worst.

This is just my own experrience. Guys love 'em. Maybe quality control was on vacation the day mine were made.
 
justswinger said:
i am wanting to install headers on a 70 Dart Swinger with a small block auto with ps & ac is there a header that fits better than others or do they all have issues going in
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The P/S limits your choices. I found a set of NOS, CPPA headers for my Dart. I test fit them first then had then Jet coated.
 
Ironmike said:
I would spend the extra money on TTI's. Just installed Doug's D453 on my Demon and would not reccomend them to my worst enemy.
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My friend had issues with Dougs too,wishes he bought TTI'S.......
 
TTI are kind of a rip off for the money,I have no idea about dougs,if your going to spend the $700 for a set of ttis do yourself a favor and have some custom made,otherwise I would just live with a cheap set.Ive got a few buddys running ttis and they have all had some issues from minor to major,but whats really bad is the fact they will lie through their teeth about the issues and their step header is misleading since it wont make any more h.p. more than a cheap set of 1 5/8s.
 
thanks guys has anyone installed the hedmans I agree with lead 69 start cheap maybe customs are the way to go
 
Theres a saying "you get what you pay for"..i've had 2 sets of TTI'S on 2 different dusters,yes they are pricey but you get exactely what you pay for a top of the line,quality made set of headers that install in about an hour or less,that don't hang down low and whack every speed bump ,pothole ect..have very easy access to the spark plugs,no burnt plug wires,clear the power steering box and still look good after 4 years..doesn't sound like a rip off to me!!..Of coarse you can spend less get headers that take hours to install,have to whack with a hammer to clear certain things,hang low whacking everything on the road,burn your plug wires ,make it tough to get to the #5,#7 spark plugs,and power steering box can be a challenge too,look like crap after only 6 months ect ect...Yes,i'm talking about a set of Hedmans i had on my previous duster,you do get what you pay for there!!.
 
lead69 said:
their step header is misleading since it wont make any more h.p. more than a cheap set of 1 5/8s.
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Sorry, but your statement is very "misleading", whether it was from personal experience or second-hand! What's your side of the story?
Here's mine:

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...0307_mopar_crate_engine_exhaust/photo_17.html

....and I've run 11.31 @ 115 with a 360, unported set of 1.88" valves, .474" lift cam weighing 3,540+ lbs. Other, similar lighter combos have been in the 10's with TTI's 1 5/8"-1 3/4" step headers.

Easiest headers I ever installed and some issues can be attributed to problems with the vehicle itself after 30-40 years of use!
 
Loco, just like the intake shootout, you can get a combo that works well with a combo of parts.

tti headers are not what they are cracked up to be, the step is big $ for little if any gain and the window they work in is VERY small. And as far as fit or issues, I've had plenty with tti over the years. It's not a case of you get what you pay for, you actually get less. Some slobber all over Sam's johnson... others don't

The SB race headers they sell are the biggest joke I know. I'm sure the new normal port window bigger tube headers will be the same. Look good perform like crap.

As far as fit they are usually very good, performance compared to others, not so much. Biggest rip off in exhaust IMHO.

I've never had a set of Dougs that were described as the other poster as far as finish or welds.

People are free to spend their money where they see fit. Plenty complain about the chinese stealing product designs...
 
Locomotion said:
Sorry, but your statement is very "misleading", whether it was from personal experience or second-hand! What's your side of the story?
Here's mine:

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...0307_mopar_crate_engine_exhaust/photo_17.html

....and I've run 11.31 @ 115 with a 360, unported set of 1.88" valves, .474" lift cam weighing 3,540+ lbs. Other, similar lighter combos have been in the 10's with TTI's 1 5/8"-1 3/4" step headers.

Easiest headers I ever installed and some issues can be attributed to problems with the vehicle itself after 30-40 years of use!
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I have many experiences with them,both personal and thorugh a professional builder/racer,have you tried them back to back?.Misleading is a strong word for you to throw at my statement if you havent truly dynoed or tested them back to back.Im glad you feel you have good results with them but I could never lay down that kind of money for a product that is no better for performance than a cheap set of headers.The fitment is exactly how I described it as well on a few different a-bodies and even if that mattered I cannot ignore $700 for no gains in power.Heres an article you might find interesting and these guys know how to make real power,scroll down to number 7. http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-72.html
 
Admittedly, I look for little gains because of the rule restrictions. But the small block step headers appear to work well in mild as well as some race combos as shown by my examples. They also have the advantage of thicker materials, eliminate the need for a 90* oil filter adapter, have no issues with speed bumps and mini-starters aren't difficult to remove & replace. Inner & outer coatings also need to be factored into the comparison.

But true, they aren't for everyone. Many feel the advantages are worth it and they are made in the USA. But there will be issues with any product for whatever reason. Can't comment on their bigger headers because I never needed them. To each, his own.


As for the Engine Masters article, the opinion on step headers can't be used as "blanket statement" for all step headers. TTI's weren't tried and perhaps 1 3/4 - 1 7/8 were a bit too big. Maybe the 1 3/4 - 1 7/8 step would have worked better without the merge collector. Or maybe 1 3/4 straight with a merge collector would have made more difference? I'm not saying that TTI's will make a big difference. I just can't see anyone saying they are junk and offer "no" gains on most applications.
 
I should clarify the issues had with automatics were minor,just a castle nut hitting,but for me thats too much already for $700.But,they are absolutely a pos with a four speed,so are dougs and schumachers but they will not lie to you about the issues,tti however will lie like hell.
 
Locomotion said:
Admittedly, I look for little gains because of the rule restrictions. But the small block step headers appear to work well in mild as well as some race combos as shown by my examples. They also have the advantage of thicker materials, eliminate the need for a 90* oil filter adapter, have no issues with speed bumps and mini-starters aren't difficult to remove & replace. Inner & outer coatings also need to be factored into the comparison.

But true, they aren't for everyone. Many feel the advantages are worth it and they are made in the USA. But there will be issues with any product for whatever reason. Can't comment on their bigger headers because I never needed them. To each, his own.
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Not to be picky but you did not answer my question as to wether you have tested them against cheaper straight 1 5/8 headers back to back or on the dyno.You also do not need a 90 degree filter for cheap headers if you run the smaller filter.Belive me im am all for a product that delivers and years ago when you could buy a set of uncoated,true 1 3/4 headers for around $400 from tti I loved them-for an automatic anyway.Now those days are long gone and you get one option for the really affordable price of $700 with the assurance that "no,theres no issues with four speeds".
 
I wish I had the time and resources to do a back-to-back between regular 1 5/8" headers and TTI 1 5/8"-1 3/4" stepped. But aside from the dyno test link, I did a lot of research on what most fast Mopar small block Stockers were running for headers, as well as some Chevy stuff. I don't recall any that didn't step up to at least 1 3/4" even though some actually started at 1 1/2"! 1 3/4" straight was pretty popular. That's what I based my decision on and someone else will have to do a back-to-back comparison to convince me that a 1 5/8" header wouldn't be a choke-point for similar or wilder combinations.

Weren't there any engine shootouts that small block Mopars were built up?
May have been in the 500hp range though. If less HP, header choices would have been interesting.
 
I can appreciate that,also its a pretty unique deal when your racing with limits like you are and as crackedback said step headers work in a very small window so if your in it they could be of some benefit.I would be skeptical though of any increase over low,low teens for h.p. and only in a small rpm range and they defintiely do not flow as well as a true 1 3/4 header.Step headers were a fad long before tti had them and their pitch was the torque of a 1 5/8 tube while still maintaing upper end h.p. but we all know there is no free lunch.I know of alot of small block cars running 1 5/8 and running very well,12s to 11s,now these are cars that have ported heads ect but run on 3.55s to 3.91s so they are street cars.Ive found alot of it is based on cubic inch and rpm range,there is at least one calculator I stumbled across on a circle track site that seemed to coincide with what Ive experienced.I wouldnt run a 1 3/4 on my 340 in its current form (approx 420-430 h.p w/6,300 shift points) since in my experience it wouldnt add any overall power and minimal if any afect on e.t.s,but this could also help explain why tti elected to do a step tube design simply to try to acheive a happy medium.At any rate its hard to beat a straight 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 since in the proper application either will make more overall power than a step tube design.
 
justswinger said:
i am wanting to install headers on a 70 Dart Swinger with a small block auto with ps & ac is there a header that fits better than others or do they all have issues going in
Click to expand...

i've run headman, hookers and tti all on the same car over the years. the tti are by far the easiest to install and the best built i have used. they don't hang low and spark plug clearance is great.


dougs are supposed to be alot like tti but i have never personally used them so i don't know
 
dougs are supposed to be alot like tti but i have never personally used them so i don't know
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Suppose to be is correct..but their NOT!!..friend of mine put them on his '70 dart,had a problem with the 2 center tubes on the driverside hitting the streering column,he had to add a few shims to get them to clear,he also has a problem with one of the tubes just about touching the oil pan,not happy about that..these 2 issues are something i NEVER had running tti's on 2 seperate '70 duster..for my money its tti's or a set of custom made:thumrigh::thumrigh:
 
lead69 said:
I can appreciate that,also its a pretty unique deal when your racing with limits like you are and as crackedback said step headers work in a very small window so if your in it they could be of some benefit.I would be skeptical though of any increase over low,low teens for h.p. and only in a small rpm range and they defintiely do not flow as well as a true 1 3/4 header.Step headers were a fad long before tti had them and their pitch was the torque of a 1 5/8 tube while still maintaing upper end h.p. but we all know there is no free lunch.I know of alot of small block cars running 1 5/8 and running very well,12s to 11s,now these are cars that have ported heads ect but run on 3.55s to 3.91s so they are street cars.Ive found alot of it is based on cubic inch and rpm range,there is at least one calculator I stumbled across on a circle track site that seemed to coincide with what Ive experienced.I wouldnt run a 1 3/4 on my 340 in its current form (approx 420-430 h.p w/6,300 shift points) since in my experience it wouldnt add any overall power and minimal if any afect on e.t.s,but this could also help explain why tti elected to do a step tube design simply to try to acheive a happy medium.At any rate its hard to beat a straight 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 since in the proper application either will make more overall power than a step tube design.
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Thanks, but I still can't agree with some of your blanket statements:

* "and only in a small rpm range and they defintiely do not flow as well as a true 1 3/4 header"

* "At any rate its hard to beat a straight 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 since in the proper application either will make more overall power than a step tube design".

- The exhaust dyno comparisons show the step headers as better across the board over 1 5/8" and 1 3/4" headers on a very mild 360. http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...0307_mopar_crate_engine_exhaust/photo_17.html Then there is the fact of a lot of higher rpm Mopar small block Stockers use them with good results. As mentioned earlier, besides TTI's, I've seen several examples of custom steps, some starting as small as 1 1/2" or actually port-matched. A 1-2,000 rpm difference in operating range between engine combos can't be considered a "small rpm range".

There are other factors that come into play. Jetting should be checked and adjusted any time there is an exhaust change to optimize the combo, just as noted in the intake manifold discussion. I don't think that was done in the header comparison so we can't say for sure if TTI's would have been even better or worse. As an example, I added a 3" X-pipe with Dynomax Ultraflows and it ran at least as fast as before. Then with slightly leaner jetting, it picked up a bit more. But I agree with you that certain combos/applications would prefer smaller tubes for torque based on the rpm range they run in the most.

A specific header can be better than another in a very specific application because there are bore, stroke, cam, rpm, weight, etc. differences that can change the diameter requirements, tube lengths, equal/unequal lengths for fitment, etc., even if the difference are small. There are plenty of good performing examples of straight and stepped headers. The debate is an old one and can go on forever. One interesting story is about a very fast 340 Mopar racer who spent $3,000 on a set of custom stainless headers. I don't know what he was running before (I'm sure it wasn't a $100.00 mail order special), but the new set didn't help any! Why it didn't run better could have been one or more of many reasons, not just because it was stepped.

But when racers who look for every .01 of ET do use stepped headers, I pay attention. Just don't make blanket comparison statements putting a particular type down. There are too many variable and examples either way. I'm just giving examples of combos that TTI's do work in and people can factor in their own variables and priorities, whether they are financial, performance or convenience.
 
LOL
.....and all this started from someone asking advice on headers for his street car with power steering and A/C!
 
stroked 340 said:
Suppose to be is correct..but their NOT!!..friend of mine put them on his '70 dart,had a problem with the 2 center tubes on the driverside hitting the streering column,he had to add a few shims to get them to clear,
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That's because the engine wasn't located correctly to begin with. Same thing happens with tti headers. It's sloppy car building tolerance and years of use that you refuse to accept.

Did the tube touch the pan... NO! An air gap is all you need and it's not going to heat up the oil because the oil moves so quickly in the system.

Making mountains out of mole hills.

It's not ok for the chinese to rip someones basic design like some on this board complain about, but, it is for a US company... interesting. A little reverse engineering does them good.
 
Same thing happens with tti headers. It's sloppy car building tolerance and years of use that you refuse to accept.
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I can accept facts,fact is it DIDN'T happen installing the tti's on both my dusters..
 
stroked 340 said:
I can accept facts,fact is it DIDN'T happen installing the tti's on both my dusters..
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Fact is that tti's hit stuff, you got lucky.

Guys on this site have had issues with tti's hitting steering, PS boxes, torsion bars, z bars, etc...
 
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