Do you think I got screwed, or is it just part of the hobby?

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moparmade43

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Ok guys, I need to vent and am pretty pissy right now, so I would like your level headed responses to help guide me. I want all kinds of feedback, from machinists to average enthusiasts. In order to protect other parties, I will not disclose the shop that did the work, or their location. Ok, here it goes....
2 years ago I had a 416 stroker built and machined by a local machine shop. They are known very well in this region for being a very good performance shop, building a lot of high dollar engines for circle track, drag, etc. Although they are mostly chevy and ford engines, I thought I would give them a try. So fast forward, they ordered all the parts with my consent, all forged bottom end, eddy heads, full roller valvetrain, etc. They did all machine work and blue printing. Also, they said they'd charge me 300 dollars to put together the shortblock, which I wasn't going to pay, except they said that they could guarantee it if they messed something up if they assembled it, so I thought it was good insurance for the machinework and blue printing.
Fast forward some more, I get the shortblock home, and assemble the rest of the engine, and have it dynoed and broken in at a dyno shop they recommended, who does all their dyno work. Everything went good, made great power and torque, the world is good. Now, after about 500-600 miles on the engine, it wouldn't quit using oil. It would use about a quart of oil every 200 miles or so, pretty ridiculous. So, I call them and tell them about the oil and he said to keep driving it and the rings should seal eventually. So I drove it all this spring and summer, and it never quit using oil. Now, in the meantime, oil pressure is great, car runs fantastic, no problems what so ever other than oil consumption. I did a compression test, 168-180 across all cylinders (I don't have access to a leakdown tester, but might buy one now). Now, since is still using oil I figured I'd give it to the end of the summer and all the rings should be sealed if they ever were going to. Now this is where it gets worse. The engine has 1500 miles on it, and now there is a bad rapping knock in the bottom end, started right after I started it up the other morning. I have pretty much isolated everything else and am almost positive that it is in the bottom end. However, oil pressure is still good, 50 psi at idle, and it idles fine, no misses or anything. So that is where I am at now. I called him to let him know I am not happy with this engine, especially the 300 dollars I paid to have them put the bottom end together for "insurance" and the fact that it used oil like crazy from the beginning, and now its knocking. I mean this thing has a rev limiter on it, always used and kept good oil in it (had to check it all the time cause of the useage), no way it should only last 1500 miles in my mind. I have yet to see where this goes, but I don't have a good feeling, as he told me to drain the oil and cut open the filter, which I am going to, but then told me I may have to pull it and figure out whats going on. In my opinion, this whole deal is on him and his shop. But like I said, I may not be thinking clearly. So guys, is this just life and should I suck it up and just fix it myself, or how would you feel? Because in my opinion, they definitely owe me something.

Thanks for listening to my rant. (P.S. if you can think of anything that would relate the oil usage engine damage I'm all ears)
 
moparmade43 said:
Ok guys, I need to vent and am pretty pissy right now, so I would like your level headed responses to help guide me. I want all kinds of feedback, from machinists to average enthusiasts. In order to protect other parties, I will not disclose the shop that did the work, or their location. Ok, here it goes....
2 years ago I had a 416 stroker built and machined by a local machine shop. They are known very well in this region for being a very good performance shop, building a lot of high dollar engines for circle track, drag, etc. Although they are mostly chevy and ford engines, I thought I would give them a try. So fast forward, they ordered all the parts with my consent, all forged bottom end, eddy heads, full roller valvetrain, etc. They did all machine work and blue printing. Also, they said they'd charge me 300 dollars to put together the shortblock, which I wasn't going to pay, except they said that they could guarantee it if they messed something up if they assembled it, so I thought it was good insurance for the machinework and blue printing.
Fast forward some more, I get the shortblock home, and assemble the rest of the engine, and have it dynoed and broken in at a dyno shop they recommended, who does all their dyno work. Everything went good, made great power and torque, the world is good. Now, after about 500-600 miles on the engine, it wouldn't quit using oil. It would use about a quart of oil every 200 miles or so, pretty ridiculous. So, I call them and tell them about the oil and he said to keep driving it and the rings should seal eventually. So I drove it all this spring and summer, and it never quit using oil. Now, in the meantime, oil pressure is great, car runs fantastic, no problems what so ever other than oil consumption. I did a compression test, 168-180 across all cylinders (I don't have access to a leakdown tester, but might buy one now). Now, since is still using oil I figured I'd give it to the end of the summer and all the rings should be sealed if they ever were going to. Now this is where it gets worse. The engine has 1500 miles on it, and now there is a bad rapping knock in the bottom end, started right after I started it up the other morning. I have pretty much isolated everything else and am almost positive that it is in the bottom end. However, oil pressure is still good, 50 psi at idle, and it idles fine, no misses or anything. So that is where I am at now. I called him to let him know I am not happy with this engine, especially the 300 dollars I paid to have them put the bottom end together for "insurance" and the fact that it used oil like crazy from the beginning, and now its knocking. I mean this thing has a rev limiter on it, always used and kept good oil in it (had to check it all the time cause of the useage), no way it should only last 1500 miles in my mind. I have yet to see where this goes, but I don't have a good feeling, as he told me to drain the oil and cut open the filter, which I am going to, but then told me I may have to pull it and figure out whats going on. In my opinion, this whole deal is on him and his shop. But like I said, I may not be thinking clearly. So guys, is this just life and should I suck it up and just fix it myself, or how would you feel? Because in my opinion, they definitely owe me something.

Thanks for listening to my rant. (P.S. if you can think of anything that would relate the oil usage engine damage I'm all ears)
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that really sucks..... I think they needed to address the problem when you told them about the oil usage. Now there may be a bigger problem! I say pull it and let them figure out what went wrong.....At that point you can decide weather or not to let them re assemble it or if your going to do it yourself. Not much help huh? sorry...good luck and keep us posted!
 
HemiMark said:
that really sucks..... I think they needed to address the problem when you told them about the oil usage. Now there may be a bigger problem! I say pull it and let them figure out what went wrong.....At that point you can decide weather or not to let them re assemble it or if your going to do it yourself. Not much help huh? sorry...good luck and keep us posted!
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Good point, but I don't think the oil consumption and rod knocking are necessarily related.
As far as the oil consumption, I would like to know more about it. What made them think it was the rings not seated, etc. What kind of finish did they put on the hone job? If it was a real smooth, glossy race finish, they may never seat, for the street.
 
It stinks, but I say give them a chance to make good on it. Even if it requires YOU pulling the motor yourself (do you really want to leave your car with them anyway?).

Also, how far away is this place? You might do better with a visit than a phone call.
 
blackbomber said:
It stinks, but I say give them a chance to make good on it. Even if it requires YOU pulling the motor yourself (do you really want to leave your car with them anyway?).

Also, how far away is this place? You might do better with a visit than a phone call.
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Excellent advice on all counts, in my opinion.
 
well.....I hate to say it.....but you said yourself they did mainly phords and chebbies. I would never have chosen them for even changin spark plugs on a mopar. they should be responsible for the whole shoot and match. pullin it, fixin it and replacin it. good luck gettin um to do all that. if they couldn't do it right the first time, lotsa luck gettin um to fix it right this time. this right here is why i always recommend an industrial/heavy duty/diesel type machine shop. they have to get it right because the engines they work on COST mega bucks. they WILL consult service manuals instead of flying by the seat of their pants. good luck with all this.
 
well this sounds like the first race motor I put together same thing run good at first and then all hell broke lose used oil like hell.SO I bite the bullet and took it out tore it apart and found wen I put the pins in the pistons I didn't put the snap rings in right in one piston.SO the resst pin pushed the snap ring against the cylinder wall and wore a big groove in the wall.that is what happened to me Meany motors ago.So I learned theres a right & wrong way to put snap rings in...if this is your problum I would say they owe you ........thats my input,Artie
 
Thanks for the replies guys, It makes me feel better knowing that I am not the only one who thinks they are at least partly responsible for this fiasco. The unfortunate thing is how do you know who to trust in the future. I mean these guys are VERY highly respected and do millions of dollars a year in business, but they can't even put in a wrist pin, rod bearing etc, or proper finish on the cylinders correctly. Hard to find someone who is good at what they do.
 
well...it's on YOU to pull the motor.

The next step is a lil tricky.... for do you trust them to disassemble it and tell you the truth about what's actually wrong with it?

You could do it yourself IF you know what to look for, OR be present upon them disassembling it, OR get they're approval/in writing that they will still warranty it after you have disassembled and inspected it.

JMO 168 -180 means something is wrong-leak down/chamber size variances, should not vary more than 5 psi in an average rebuild. and you should not see more 4-6% cold test and no more than 7-9 % cold test.

imo
 
Sorry to hear about this. That sucks.

My experience with roundy round shops has been universally bad.

Usually when I've seen people in situations like this the shop ends up squeaking some money of out them for the rebuild and they end up still having problems down the road.

I'd pull it and take it to a different shop that actually does Mopars and have them figure out what went wrong. Once you've got a diagnosis, you can start fighting with the original shop.

Steve
 
Since you was given a shortblock I think that is what you should return.
pull the engine and begin to disassemble from the bottom up take pictures of each step donot undo any thing they did feel the rods for slop.Check cam drive,dist and oil pump drive for slop. remove topend check for slop and stem seals,This could be the cause of oil consumption. Check lifters, label them as to cylinder and I or E .
When you get to this point, with the shorthlock still assembled I would take it to the shop for them to disassemble in your presance. If they are as reputable as the shops I use there would be no objections to you watching the disassembly.
Things to watch for. Discoloration on rods;Babbit loss on bearings;Crank discoloration and rough.Ring fit in pistons.Ring markings on top of ring.
Cylinder wall problems.Rod markings.and piston marking should have been checked before final engine assembly.
I hope you used a good shop.
Roscoe
 
Pull it and drop it on there doorstep, you never know, they might make good on it...
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
well...it's on YOU to pull the motor.
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I disagree. I've been in the business a long time. Every time we ran into a problem similar to this, it was the machine shop's responsibility. I mean, look at it this way. IF they did the job RIGHT, the engine wouldn't have to come back out. Since they obviously did not, it should be on them. It has to come back out because of THEIR mistake. should be part of their warranty. I've been on both sides of that spectrum. Both in the machine shop and in the mechanic shop. No mechanic shop I know would stand to pay their mechanic to pull that engine twice. NONE. But SOMEBODY'S gotta do it. Now, getting them to actually DO it is another thing altogether. But it IS the right thing for them to do.
 
What oil is being used in it??? full syn...semi-syn....mineral???? What grade of oil???15W40...15W50...15W60...20W50...25W60????
Have you been loading up the engine ( driving in top at 30mph and hold it flat till 60 mph, back off till 30 again and do it all over)????
A "rapping noise".....piston???.....crank/rod hitting dip stick???
 
When I had my big block stroker put together earlier this year I had a problem with it with in 50 miles. I pulled the motor and gave it back to the guy that put it together for me.(I Had paid him 600$)Turned out in the process of assembling the motor he forgot to torque one rod bolt,[we are all human). He paid for all new bearing,gaskets and 8 quarts of Joe Gibbs oil. Engine has about 1000 miles on it now including some low 11 sec passes{ hope to see high 10;s this week end} Bottom line the engine builder should stand behind his (her) work. Good luck with your motor.Keep us posted on the out come.
 
Having been in business many years, I can tell you my past experience with machine shops. All is great as long as a shop is doing work for you and your paying money to them. Now the true measure of a good machine shop is what they do when a job goes wrong! or how how they handle warranty work. I have found that a lot of machine shops talk trash when you come back to them with a problem. For years this usually meant that the warranty work came out of my pocket! After 30 years I found a machine shop and much more a machinist, that STANDS BEHIND HIS WORK! He has made mistakes, (like we all do) but he has always made it good. I think this is rare today. As far as you not using a MOPAR man, or not using a roundy round machinist, is Bull ****! A good machinist and a man of integrity is the only important fact here.
You can bet your *** if you take it back to him, (judging by what you have said of him), he is not going to be honest in his evaluation. The best recourse for you is to take it to another shop that is reputable, and get a unbiased written report of what they find. Then confront your guy with this info and go from there. It may come to a law suit. I know it sucks right now to be in your situation, try and do the smart think from here on out.
 
cuda20 said:
When I had my big block stroker put together earlier this year I had a problem with it with in 50 miles. I pulled the motor and gave it back to the guy that put it together for me.(I Had paid him 600$)Turned out in the process of assembling the motor he forgot to torque one rod bolt,[we are all human). He paid for all new bearing,gaskets and 8 quarts of Joe Gibbs oil. Engine has about 1000 miles on it now including some low 11 sec passes{ hope to see high 10;s this week end} Bottom line the engine builder should stand behind his (her) work. Good luck with your motor.Keep us posted on the out come.
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That is the mark of a Good man and machinist. hang on to that one!
 
Thanks for the replies guys you are making me feel a little better. As far as the oil and noise, the oil I have used has always been 10W 30 Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil. I have eliminated all the possibilities I can think of with the knocking/rapping noise. Pulled the dipstick while it was running, no change. Checked the entire top of the valvetrain while turning it by hand (which was what I assembled), everything is good up top, and it is definitely louder underneath the car by the pan
 
StrokerScamp said:
well.....I hate to say it.....but you said yourself they did mainly phords and chebbies. I would never have chosen them for even changin spark plugs on a mopar.
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The fact that they primarily do Ford and Chevy work has absolutely nothing to do with the issues the OP is having. A reputable shop can machine and assemble a mopar just as well as they can a Ford or a Chevy even if they primarily do brand X work. The only thing a mopar specific shop will get you is knowledge of combinations that may get you more power.

moparmade43, Based on them telling you to keep driving the motor to seat the rings should have set off an alarm. If the bores were finished properly for the rings being used the rings are seated virtually instantly the motor starts and a good shop would know that. I would say there competency is not as good as the reputation they have.

In anycase you need to get face to face with the shop, keep a level head and work through to a mutually acceptable solution. All you can resonably expect is to return the short block to them and have them make it right and that is no different than anything you buy. If they truely care about their reputation they will go above an beyond to make it right and it is those companies that will cover the cost of labor for the R&R of their product when it fails. If they don't care it may take getting a lawyer involved but even that won't guarantee satisfaction.
 
moparmade43 said:
Thanks for the replies guys you are making me feel a little better. As far as the oil and noise, the oil I have used has always been 10W 30 Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil. I have eliminated all the possibilities I can think of with the knocking/rapping noise. Pulled the dipstick while it was running, no change. Checked the entire top of the valvetrain while turning it by hand (which was what I assembled), everything is good up top, and it is definitely louder underneath the car by the pan
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Take a long screw driver, or very long extension, and listen to the motor through it. It is hard to explain, but put it touching the motor, and grip it solid with a hand next to and touching just in front of your ear. ie, make a mechanical link from your motor to your ear.
You can hear ever little noise in the motor through this, and tell where it is coming from.
Ted Detar showed me how to do it in the 60s, and it really works.
 
You didn't run that synthetic oil for the break-in did you? That's a no-no.

Check the flexplate bolts and all that too. If that stuff gets loose all kinds of weird sounds start happening.

Oh, and for the record, the entire hobby is a rip-off, so don't let this one transaction get you down. ;)

Steve
 
StrokerScamp said:
well.....I hate to say it.....but you said yourself they did mainly phords and chebbies. I would never have chosen them for even changin spark plugs on a mopar. they should be responsible for the whole shoot and match. pullin it, fixin it and replacin it. good luck gettin um to do all that. if they couldn't do it right the first time, lotsa luck gettin um to fix it right this time. this right here is why i always recommend an industrial/heavy duty/diesel type machine shop. they have to get it right because the engines they work on COST mega bucks. they WILL consult service manuals instead of flying by the seat of their pants. good luck with all this.
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I tend to agree with this logic, I wonder if they forgot to do something such as what it says in my Mopar small block rebuild book, theres a certain little bypass valve just after the oil filter that routes the oil into the galley not anywhere else, it also went on to say, "Many people always forget to do this."
 
No synthetic for the breakin, just 30w pennzoil, which is what the dyno guy prefers for ring seating. Also, I checked the TC bolts and they weren't backed out or anything, and the flexplate doesn't appear to be cracked or anything from what I can tell, plus its an SFI approved unit
 
rick360 said:
I tend to agree with this logic, I wonder if they forgot to do something such as what it says in my Mopar small block rebuild book, theres a certain little bypass valve just after the oil filter that routes the oil into the galley not anywhere else, it also went on to say, "Many people always forget to do this."
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If they knew enough to remove that galley plug they should have remembered to put it back. And if it wasn't there then there would have been oil pressure issues.
 
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