Do you think I got screwed, or is it just part of the hobby?

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I agree with most, good reputable shop stands behind the work. Yhe fact that they told you to keep driving it knowing it was consuming oil is a signal from them they are guessing and maybe do not care. A reputable good machinist would want to see it to figure out what is wrong.or mistake that was made. Brand makes no difference, they use specs from each to to the work. If they fail you I hope you had it in writing or you are in trouble. If they fail you find a better shop and chalk it up as a learning experience. I have had similar mistakes with people and friends have also we now know who to use in our area, talk to others get some opinions before spending money, ask for references if they are goos should have many happy customers! JMO
 
StrokerScamp said:
well.....I hate to say it.....but you said yourself they did mainly phords and chebbies. I would never have chosen them for even changin spark plugs on a mopar.
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Any competent engine builder/machinist can build ANY make..he may have found one thats just not that good a machinist/engine builder....
 
From what you have said, it sounds to me like the machine shop is willing to work with you (at least to a point). They probably won't do all the R&R work to get the short block out but they should do whatever is necessary to get the short block back into specs. You can ask them about the rest of the labor, gaskets, oil, etc.....you never know, they might do that too. I think my first step would be to do what he asked. Pull the oil filter and cut it open to see if there is any metal flakes inside. Put a new filter and oil in the car and drive it over to him to get his opinion on the noise. Stop at some other shops in the area and get their opinion too. Next would be to pull the engine apart again and inspect it thoroughly. Make sure you have an agreement as to who needs/wants to be present when this happens. Once the problem is found, the one responsible can be determined and assigned to fix it.
 
Have you taken the car to the shop and have them look/listen/drive it personally??? If the shop is in your town, that would've been the first thing I did. Now, I fully expect them to stand behind their work, and I would not put pulling the motor in their hands. They will definetly not stand behind any damage that occurs while pulling the motor. If I was in your position, I would drive it over there, have them listen and look at it and tell them that you will be bringing the shortblock back to them to have it completely gone through at their expense. Tell them you want to be there during disassembly and that you expect that it will be fixed to your satisfaction, again with an extended warranty. If they waffle on any of their responsibility, get ready to involve some legal action, but my gut feeling is that they will stand up to their end of the repair. Did you say that they do multi-millions in business a year??? Should be no problem to stand behind a couple thousand in work to satisfy a customer!!! JMO, Geof
 
StrokerScamp said:
I disagree. I've been in the business a long time. Every time we ran into a problem similar to this, it was the machine shop's responsibility. I mean, look at it this way. IF they did the job RIGHT, the engine wouldn't have to come back out. Since they obviously did not, it should be on them. It has to come back out because of THEIR mistake. should be part of their warranty. I've been on both sides of that spectrum. Both in the machine shop and in the mechanic shop. No mechanic shop I know would stand to pay their mechanic to pull that engine twice. NONE. But SOMEBODY'S gotta do it. Now, getting them to actually DO it is another thing altogether. But it IS the right thing for them to do.
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Yeah...in a perfect world maybe.

try asking manufacturers that when you flatten a cam, find the eagle crank you bought and installed has a crack, new ring gear installed but had porosity in the process in which it was forged and now had a missing tooth, or lots of other thing that if you look closely at the fine print say...not liable for damages caused buy or related this product being it installer fault or parts interference..etc...

ya know what I mean...

sure it would be the 'right thing to do' but that is wishful thinking..

I've been in the business a while too, seen this too many times.

and no, it don't matter what they work on mainly, hell if it's mainly chevys..then they are used to doing a lot of checking and corrective machine work, you outta know that=checking rods for straightness on a sb chevy is A MUST, and milling the warped sbc heads, and decks are wacked out too most of the time.

But the main idea here is this=You either know how to use the equipment and know proper setup....Or you don't.
AND you either buy/keep up on replacing tired reamers/stones/cutters/bla bla bla or you don't and end up with a finished product destined for a trash can.

I've watched people use the sunnen before who didn't even watch the amp gauge to see where the tight spots are...that aint right.
 
Hellion, they built the heads, did all the port work and re assembled the new eddys, I bolted them on. I would love to drive it over there, but it's almost an hour drive one way, and the way the engine sounds, I hate to drive it that far and have something catastrophic happen, then I may be screwed even farther. I appreciate your advice, and I think what I will do, after talking to them first of course, is see if they will honor me pulling the engine and taking the heads intake and pan off, and then taking the shortblock back to them, and letting them make it new again. The only thing that worries me is will they screw it up again? Unfortunately I'm already in bed with them so I'm stuck. The bad thing is, like I said, I know they do at least a million dollars in business a year, and came highly recommended. I hope they make it right, but the way they didn't seem to show much concern when it was originally using a bunch of oil doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Wish me luck
 
I know...but dammit all it's just the RIGHT thing to do, know what I mean Vern? back when somebody's word meant sumthin that's how it was done.


1wild&crazyguy said:
Yeah...in a perfect world maybe.

try asking manufacturers that when you flatten a cam, find the eagle crank you bought and installed has a crack, new ring gear installed but had porosity in the process in which it was forged and now had a missing tooth, or lots of other thing that if you look closely at the fine print say...not liable for damages caused buy or related this product being it installer fault or parts interference..etc...

ya know what I mean...

sure it would be the 'right thing to do' but that is wishful thinking..

I've been in the business a while too, seen this too many times.

and no, it don't matter what they work on mainly, hell if it's mainly chevys..then they are used to doing a lot of checking and corrective machine work, you outta know that=checking rods for straightness on a sb chevy is A MUST, and milling the warped sbc heads, and decks are wacked out too most of the time.

But the main idea here is this=You either know how to use the equipment and know proper setup....Or you don't.
AND you either buy/keep up on replacing tired reamers/stones/cutters/bla bla bla or you don't and end up with a finished product destined for a trash can.

I've watched people use the sunnen before who didn't even watch the amp gauge to see where the tight spots are...that aint right.
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I've been in a messy situation myself (look at my past post)... I had other reasons for not going back to the shop. I ended up doing it myself.

Hopefully this shop will help you... even a little bit.
 
They do millions in revenue a year? China does billions a year. That doesn't mean they sell quality stuff. Obama spends trillions a year, doesn't mean crap now does it?
 
I have a couple suggestions...
on the lower end noise... Did you check the torque convertor bolts and pulley bolts? Are there any marks on the timing cover from the balancer hitting it? What fuel pump is on it? Did you try removing the accessory belts one at a time to see if the noise went away? When did it start making the lower end noise again?
on the oil use... It could be ring seal due to cylinder finish... the leakdown test would pin point that. What do the spark plugs look like? It could also be the PCV valve.. How is that system installed? What valve covers were used? It could be the intake leaking internally... Is there any sign of oil pooling in the intake manifold near the bolt holes? Did you run a wrench around the intake bolts to see if they are all tight?

The assumption that mopar engines are anything special is as poor as assuming any issue is a sign of someone out to screw you. It's normal to get angry and upset. It's also counterproductive. I would make damn sure you know it's their work before you accuse them of anything. If they are an hour away, offer to pay a guy $20 afgter work to come to you and listen a little. They might do it for free if the concern is great enough. What you are describing tho could be many things that are not their problem. If it proves to be their problem, it's assinine to believe they owe you anything more than what they gave you and maybe the supplies to re-fire it. Shortblock, long block, oil and filter, etc. It's like telling the cook he owes you 4 dinners because the one he gave you sucked.
 
if the machine shop only did bottom end then bring that back. let them fix it and then disassembly it when u get it back and then re check there work.

i built a 396 chevy for a buddy few years back... had it running for 25 miles and the distubor geared wipped out and the brass went through oil and wiped out a rod bearing. i had to take entire motor back out, have crank cut, gaskets time, bearings and i didnt ask for a penny cause i stand behind my work

to this day nothing looked wrong everything was torqued, plastigauged... only thing i think in my mind it i got a bad cam (something past quaility control) from the start and was gonna happen no matter what.

reassembled it again same way has alot of miles on it now, no oil leaks, usage and gets wound right out through the 4 speed
 
Ok guys, I have an update on the engine situation for those of you who are interested. After letting it sit for a couple months and building up the interest to work on it again, I took the hood off and did a leakdown test on the engine, before I pull it out, to get an idea of what I'm looking at. It seems I only have one bad cylinder. I was very impressed with the other 7 cylinders. I did the leakdown test cold, since I didn't want to let it run and hurt the engine any more, and I also did not put any oil in the cylinders before checking. One cylinder showed 7% leakdown, the others 5%, and one only showed 3% leakdown :cheers:. However, I do have one bad cylinder, the #1 cylinder, and it has 30% leakdown at TDC, but only 20% leakdown at BDC. So, just for fun, what are your opinions before I get the head off? I think since it has a higher leakdown at TDC than bottom, that I have a wrist pin chewing up my cylinder wall, and it is a wrist pin knocking around and not a bearing, especially since my oil pressure is still great. I don't think I'd have broken rings because I would think there would be little to no sealing at all going on there. Anyways, thats my guess, what do you all think?
 
Dear dear Moparmade, if it is your intention to have the shop that machined and assembled your engine stand by any damage you find after you disassemble that engine, then I respectfully say that you could be in for a surprise. They will use every excuse in the book like lets say you find broken rings on that cylinder in question and yes broken rings can sometimes cause a piston knock because of uneven combustion pressures. They very well could say you did that when you removed the piston. I would not go any further with the disassembly until you've contacted them and come to an agreement, maybe you have but just haven't told us. Otherwise disassemble away.
 
I am with crazy guy,its up to you to pull the motor,there not going to do that lol. Now BE THERE when they pull it apart,insist that they Waite until your there to see first hand what happened,we all know using oil is rings or valves.I think you will have no problems with that shop.Good luck and please let us know how all this ends up.
 
Yes, I should have been more clear, my intention only is to remove the heads and oil pan and return the entire shortblock assembled to them, since this is what they assembled for me.
 
My opinion is to bring them back the shortblock,once they disassemble and see/find your problem they should warranty their work.Your going about this the right way as to your calls,enquiring and following their steps to see if the problem goes away.which it hasn,t.My engine builders are mainly Ford,Chebby guys,but are now doing alot of Mopar stuff with good results,me being one of them.If I had any problems right off the hop,they would,ve stood behind their work.It makes good for more business.Good luck and keep us posted with your results/findings,it might help someonelse down the road.:read2:
 
have you called them back yet to discuss? Seems odd to me that a couple months have passed and you haven't pursued that route.

Stop touching the engine - leave it alone. Call them to see what you need to do. No point in asking us - they're the ones to be dealing with.

Good luck, but I caution you - CALL THEM before you even remove the valve covers.
 
IF in YOUR opinion they didn't do it right the first time, why trust them a second time? I had a similiar experience here--the shop even agreed to fix the problem that was their fault--until they started pricing parts, then they left me hangin', saying I should've expected it.:angry7::angry7:
Nope, if it were me, I'd chalk it up to a bad experience & find a Mopar engine builder that's reputable even if it means shipping the thing. Looking at it from the shop's standpoint, you got 1,500 miles out of a motor they have no idea just what you did with/to it and now (in their eyes) you want them to fix a problem POSSIBLY caused by the abuse of the engine?
 
Wow, doesn't sound good, but at least you have an idea.

I made that mistake on my first race motor, a 340, that I used only a single set of used wrist pin keepers.

Pulled the pan off the motor with it still in the car, and could see two ugly grooves worn in the cylinder wall.

Since you bought all new stuff, I doubt they used used lock rings, but they might have left one off.

I recommend pulling the pan, and take a gander at number one cylinder wall.
 
Yes, I have called them to let them know the results of the leakdown test, and told them that I didn't want to take the heads off until I talked to them, in which they agreed to take the heads off and then we'd go from there. Now, if it does turn out to be their faults, which I really can't see any way it's not at this point, especially when I notified them from the beginning the "warrantied" engine was using a lot of oil and they said drive it and it should seal up by 1500 miles or so, and they fix the shortblock with no cost to me, then great. I'll let them, everyone makes mistakes. However, if they don't make it right, then of course I'm not going to let them fix it at a cost to me when they messed it up the first time.
 
Ok guys, sorry I haven't updated you, but with the holidays and work travel I've been busy the last month. I pulled the engine out and stripped it down to the shortblock. After pulling the heads I immediately saw what I thought was the problem. On the number one cylinder, there is definite piston scuffing that has taken place on the cylinder wall. It is a wide vertical scuff that is probably 1/2" wide that has removed the crosshatch. It is not on the thrust side of the cylinder, but on the header side (side of block). Upon further investigation, I found that all the cylinders had some degree of scuffing, however this cylinder was the worst. After talking to the machinist, he said to go ahead and pull the #1 piston (the one with the 30% leakdown) and see what the problem was. So I pulled it, but there is no visible problems to me with the rings or piston, other than that scuff marks on the skirts. Also, with the piston removed, I could see the scuffing goes all the way down the cylinder. So that is where it currently stands, as the engine is now at his shop being disassembled to see what the problem is. I do not know what all can cause this to happen, but I have a feeling since it has been this way since built that it may have been a machining or tolerancing error, and now has so much slop that the noise was actually the piston instead of a bearing. Any other people have 416 strokers who have experienced this?
 
Besides the fact they obviously FUBAR'd the build, this is the other big problem I see:
moparmade43 said:
So, I call them and tell them about the oil and he said to keep driving it and the rings should seal eventually. So I drove it all this spring and summer,
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Now they have latitude to play all sorts of hogwash games with you and claim plausible deniability for whatever BS story they want to cook up. If that was my engine it would have been back in that shop at the first sign of trouble. Rings don't seat "eventually."

Good luck.
 
moparmade43 said:
Ok guys, sorry I haven't updated you, but with the holidays and work travel I've been busy the last month. I pulled the engine out and stripped it down to the shortblock. After pulling the heads I immediately saw what I thought was the problem. On the number one cylinder, there is definite piston scuffing that has taken place on the cylinder wall. It is a wide vertical scuff that is probably 1/2" wide that has removed the crosshatch. It is not on the thrust side of the cylinder, but on the header side (side of block). Upon further investigation, I found that all the cylinders had some degree of scuffing, however this cylinder was the worst. After talking to the machinist, he said to go ahead and pull the #1 piston (the one with the 30% leakdown) and see what the problem was. So I pulled it, but there is no visible problems to me with the rings or piston, other than that scuff marks on the skirts. Also, with the piston removed, I could see the scuffing goes all the way down the cylinder. So that is where it currently stands, as the engine is now at his shop being disassembled to see what the problem is. I do not know what all can cause this to happen, but I have a feeling since it has been this way since built that it may have been a machining or tolerancing error, and now has so much slop that the noise was actually the piston instead of a bearing. Any other people have 416 strokers who have experienced this?
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Check to see if the pistons were installed on the rods correctly and that the piston notches all face the same correct direction. I had a machine shop press the rods on backwards for me once. Caused the oil hole to face the wrong way and not oil the cylinder walls like it was supposed to.
 
cudamark said:
Check to see if the pistons were installed on the rods correctly and that the piston notches all face the same correct direction. I had a machine shop press the rods on backwards for me once. Caused the oil hole to face the wrong way and not oil the cylinder walls like it was supposed to.
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Yep, been done that way once myself but caught it before installing them in the engine. The machine shop guy insisted they were pressed on right until I asked him to lay out the pistons with the chamfers facing as they would on the crank, noting the dots on the pistons. The only reason I had to have a machine shop press them on is I did not have a press at the time and the only way I could get my stroker kit was with the rods and pistons shipped separate. The only thing I needed to rely on local help for and they could not get it right the first time. I prefer to bolt my engine pieces together for that reason.
 
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