Does This Debunk the "Coolant Can Flow Through the Radiator Too Fast" Idea???

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How does all this Conversation really apply to Our, Your street / maybe strip driven cars! Don't overthink this,

I speak from 40 years of experience with just this one car and a multitude of the Same Engine/ Different cam, Rear Gear, Trans/Convertor changes and none the least "Cooling System Changes" ! The opening statement in this thread is the most interesting one to read and pay attention to. I learned my lesson the hard way with hard earned dollars that were just pissed away! My attitude towards my cars and how I spend my money has changed
over the lessons I learned with just this subject! It has led to what has become my favorite Mopar that I have owned the Longest! This car had been so aggravating over the cooling issues! Not any more!

Much of this thread IMO is conjecture and one upmanship that got out of hand. JMO!
I've preached on here for years that the farther away you get from the stock system, usually the more trouble you run into. Really the only three things a hot street/race car needs is a high efficiency radiator big enough to handle it, a high flow thermostat and "maybe" a high flow water pump. Everything else like the shroud and fan can remain and you can cool just about anything. But people have to always reinvent the wheel with the new shiny thing.
 
I have another example. Kenny at Indy built my 499, 830 hp. When I first got it in car it would peak at 240 degrees going down track. Belt driven water pump into a VW Scroroco radiator with external fan. I called Ken on this and said that’s fine, those heads have to run hot to make the power-heat, heat dissipation. He said I’d loose a lot of power running them cold (180). Anyway I didn’t like it being that hot so I put the correct factory shroud-fans on and a 160 stat, it ran that temp idling all day, lost about a tenth of ET in eight mile. Went from 5.60 to 5.71.
This is real world stuff not something read off the internet.

I`ve never been a bill Jenkins fan , but he said in one of his books , that his engines made the most power when they were about to melt the (solder out of the heads!)
this was back before all the kick *** heads came out ...
 
I've preached on here for years that the farther away you get from the stock system, usually the more trouble you run into. Really the only three things a hot street/race car needs is a high efficiency radiator big enough to handle it, a high flow thermostat and "maybe" a high flow water pump. Everything else like the shroud and fan can remain and you can cool just about anything. But people have to always reinvent the wheel with the new shiny thing.
unless u have a big , hi h.p. engine in a really small area , heat build up is terrible ...
 
I've preached on here for years that the farther away you get from the stock system, usually the more trouble you run into. Really the only three things a hot street/race car needs is a high efficiency radiator big enough to handle it, a high flow thermostat and "maybe" a high flow water pump. Everything else like the shroud and fan can remain and you can cool just about anything. But people have to always reinvent the wheel with the new shiny thing.

I agree, but the more h.p. you add , the more it takes to cool it ...jmo
 
Like said earlier, Are we talking Mountain Motor Pro Stock, Which run Solid block's for the most part, Or street/strip Hot Rods! If the Later What I posted Stands mostly True!
You will never cool the 1/2 to 3/4 fill solid block beyond a strip run! The rest you can Do with some simple solid Factory engineering + high flow pump and Stat! JMO!
 
Lets Talk Street / Strip and be serious to the forum! I have 10 years of my actual cooling performance against 30 of my years of the opposite! I screwed up alot and I admit it! I think we all have!

We are not talking Pro Stock race engines, But High Performance Street / Strip Engines or less! My findings over the years may or may not surprise you! They did surprise me non the less! Simple Comes to
mind over and over!

I will pick this up in a day or two!
 
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Lets Talk Street / Strip and be serious to the forum! I have 10 years of my actual cooling performance against 30 of my years of the opposite! I screwed up alot and I admit it! I think we all have!

We are not talking Pro Stock race engines, But High Performance Street / Strip Engines or less! My findings over the years may or may not surprise you! They did surprise me non the less! Simple Comes to
mind over and over!

I will pick this up in a day or two!
Who on Earth are you arguing with? I've agreed with everything you've said.
 
Not You, Seems the point is still getting argued or am I missing something?
Since we were the last two to comment, I was wondering if you might have missed something.
 
I have another example. Kenny at Indy built my 499, 830 hp. When I first got it in car it would peak at 240 degrees going down track. Belt driven water pump into a VW Scroroco radiator with external fan. I called Ken on this and said that’s fine, those heads have to run hot to make the power-heat, heat dissipation. He said I’d loose a lot of power running them cold (180). Anyway I didn’t like it being that hot so I put the correct factory shroud-fans on and a 160 stat, it ran that temp idling all day, lost about a tenth of ET in eight mile. Went from 5.60 to 5.71.
This is real world stuff not something read off the internet.
key word -sorroco radiator
 
doing this from memory figures will be a bit wrong
and i have taken some liberties to make a point.... its all a bit loose and is based on high school physics

water has a specific heat capacity of about 4200J/KG i.e it takes 4.2 KJ of heat energy to heat 1kg water 1 degree C or K so water is pretty good at not having its temperature increase too much when you add in a load of heat energy
and to lower 1KG of water temperature, by 1 degree, you need to pull out 4200 joules of heat energy

iron
about 500 J/KG of heat energy to raise its temp 1 degree you don't have to put as much energy in to raise its temperature, it gets hot quick.......!

so your 1 KG of iron is going to increase by 8 degrees with 4.2KJ energy and 1kg of water will just increase by 1 degree
in theory it heats up, hot to the touch, 8 time faster
and it will reduce its temperature 8 x faster than water.
Energy goes in and out at the same rate provided nothing else changes

or for the water to get to the same temperature as the IRON you would need to cool 8KGs of iron to get the water to that temperature.

or for every 8 degrees of head temperature with associated heat energy you want to remove from the motor, you need to cool the water by 1 degree in the radiator

its ratio based is what i'm saying even if in a slightly dubious way.... :)

coolant is about 3000 J/kg. trade off the heat carrying capacity for a much higher boiling point and a much lower freezing point. huge benefits....


but it doesn't really matter its still got a much higher heat capacity than the surroundings


brass is 380 J kg its gets very hot (temperature.... burn ya fingers ) faster than iron gets very hot, you only need 380 j to heat 1 kg of it up by 1 degree and it gets very hot way way faster than water. we can use this because it temperature will also go down faster

heat energy transfers better when the difference in temperature between the hot thing and the cold thing touching it is greatest
a really hot brass radiator is shedding heat energy to the ambient temp air faster than a cold one. air cools it quick and water heats it quick...


so we have two things at each end that get very hot fast, and can therefore cool fast
and we have water/coolant transferring the heat energy from one to the other that doesn't particularly. However, we get a great bang for our buck with water/coolant, just by lowering the temperature of every KG of water/coolant by just 1 degree, 4.2KJ energy lost for every kg of water cooled by 1 degree.
it has great heat carrying capacity.

its like getting your biggest wheel barrow out to carry home 1 potato.

then add in
flow speed
convection
the wetting agents in coolant
the raised pressure in the system
the forced air cooling of the brass radiator

and it gets well......really complicated

but ultimately the coolant or even plain water is an open freeway to transfer heat energy rather than a small side walk

total capacity of the system is key you can't have a 500CI engine cooled by a radiator the size of a postage stamp, the coolant or water volume in the system is too small

ignition timing and mixture play a bigger part
not causing the cap to vent with too high pump/heat derived pressure plays a part
you won't notice it has vented......!

total Capacity and some flow is key
making it flow faster is implemented by increasing the pressure at the pump outlet by a known value at any RPM, if you care to measure and keep the temperature stable....however that pressure is added to by an Unknown which is linked to the heat picked up from the block and heads at a specific time, fuel grade, load and rpm when the temperature is not stable. that unknown can result in coolant loss via the cap when you make big changes from standard

what do you have to do to the cooling system if you grout the block? never done it, always assumed that reducing the cooling system capacity by 1/3 to 1/2 would make it only useful for drag racing? street drivable anymore?

Dave
 
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Many people who have grout filled their bock claim that the engine runs cooler. Seemed odd to me because there is now less coolant to absorb the heat. But then....the remaining coolant is getting pumped faster.....
 
I guess with a big radiator and really only the very top 1/2 to 1/3 of the cylinder and the head being cooled by the coolant there is less surface area of metal to shed heat energy into the coolant.

less exposure to hot metal lower temperature coolant..... that may be more effective at cooling the head... which is the bit that really counts

so does that mean grouting makes for cooler coolant?
or does grouting make for a cooler head but hotter cylinder block and piston, that we won't know about..... suppose if it doesn't cause a problem its not an issue

in a grouted block if the cylinder walls run hotter the piston will, harder to transfer heat from it via the rings to the cylinder wall if the wall is already hot, you'd expect a forged piston motor with some piston rock/slap when cold to exhibit much less of the behaviour or at least for a shorter time.

or did we just insulate/damp the noise.....! as per a sound proofed room....

all too complicated.

Dave
 
Aw, what the hey, since this is the thread that never ends, eh!

Larry Shepherd in his how to build mopar small block engines book goes into details about how to reduce pump speed for high rpm engines, stating that for ideal cooling the pump must run at nearer to standard speeds, or you will overheat when you convert your small block into High rpm race engine. Gives part numbers etc to get ideal pulley gearing for RPM range, doesn't explain why,

As you said later in your post, it's because excessive pump speed ➙ cavitation ➙ reduced pumping efficiency ➙ overheating.

It did not explain that a pump that produces a higher pressure in the system could be a problem

…because that's not a thing. The water pump doesn't produce pressure, it just circulates coolant. There'll be a relatively minor amount of what is called "head pressure" downstream of the pump if there's a flow restriction, or a large amount of head pressure if there's excessive restriction due to a clogged radiator, blocked hose, thermostat stuck shut, etc.

But under normal conditions, the cooling system is pressurized not by the pump, but by steam. That's unless you are running waterless coolant, which generates no steam, so the system runs unpressurized…even though the water pump is spinning like the Tasmanian Devil in old Warner Bros cartoons.

modern radiators have their filler cap/plastic bottle plumbed in to the lower pressure side of the system before the entry into the water pump at the colder end of the radiator

Some do, some don't. Many still have it the other way.
 
I have to disagree on one point
To circulate the coolant, the pump must produce a pressure difference between inlet and outlet otherwise it ceases to be a pump.
The pump producing a pressure difference has to be "a thing" in order to get some coolant circulation.

some pressure is also necessary to avoid cavitation, doesn't matter what causes it, but you need some, it makes it harder for the pump to thrash the coolant so hard that you create bubbles of vaporised coolant.
you need something for the pump to pump against which is why, as you say, a thermostat or restrictor is useful.

a cavitating pump produces an area of massively low pressure around the impeller which is much more attractive than going out the exit, you end up with a self perpetuating vortex like situation. low pressure promotes cavitation which promotes low pressure, hence a cavitating pump produces little pressure difference between inlet and outlet and hence greatly reduced coolant circulation. at least until the pressure in the system raises considerably and puts a stop to the situation.

that may not happen with a coolant that doesn't cause a pressure increase when overheating
 
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Water pump uses centrifugal force to create a low pressure area.

This is not a positive displacement pump, vanes/flukes are not sealed to the case/housing.
No "pressure" as such, is created, only circulation.

The lower rad hose, the return heater-hose, and by- pass hose all channel coolant into the center chamber of the pump/impeller.
The impellers centrifugal force flings coolant outward (creating low pressure) to the channels thru the timing cover to the block, distributes thru the block/heads, to the engine outlet to the top of the rad, sheds heat thru rad.
Then sucked back to the center of the water pump, repeat
Some newer systems often require air to be bled from the system to get coolant circulation.

IMG_20241008_124804.jpg
 
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Not really, racer tricks compared to street cars are two different animals.
Water jackets go deep around the cylinder walls to cool things down.


Not really. Water is cheaper than cast iron.

The water at the bottom of the cylinder does little to no cooling.
 
I'm not real smart but I guess I can't figure out why some folks might need the pump to run slower, and why some folks might need it to run faster, all dependant on your parts combo, your application, the maintenance and functional ability of the parts ya got, etc. to the point that you can't make a blanket statement about much at all....
 
So everybody should grout their blocks in and save on coolant.:D

That’s not what I said. Buy a good block and do nothing.

If I was forced to run a stock block I’d fill it. Not to the water pump holes or stupid **** like that.

Just over the freeze plugs is it.

Your premise that the factory doesn’t fill the blocks because cooling occurs in the cylinder down there is wrong.

What other erroneous notions you have are your issues.
 
I'm not real smart but I guess I can't figure out why some folks might need the pump to run slower, and why some folks might need it to run faster, all dependant on your parts combo, your application, the maintenance and functional ability of the parts ya got, etc. to the point that you can't make a blanket statement about much at all....


I can. If your engine speed is below 8k speed the pump up.

The only reason to slow the pump down is if you can’t keep the belt on.

At some point the fan, ANY fan will become less effective and will fail.

That’s why you slow a pump down.

For the drive through idle guys and the rest of us not turning that kind of rpm need to speed the pump up.

The fact that this is still being discussed is proof positive old myths never die.
 
I can. If your engine speed is below 8k speed the pump up.

The only reason to slow the pump down is if you can’t keep the belt on.

At some point the fan, ANY fan will become less effective and will fail.

That’s why you slow a pump down.

For the drive through idle guys and the rest of us not turning that kind of rpm need to speed the pump up.

The fact that this is still being discussed is proof positive old myths never die.
SO why are you still beatin the dead horse? Piss on it. You got better things to do.
 
Not really. Water is cheaper than cast iron.

The water at the bottom of the cylinder does little to no cooling.

I remember a little while back reading about how audi had done years of research to come up with a little plastic baffle that preferentially sent the cooled water from the water pump to the higher side of the bores first in an effort to reduce temperature differences from the top of the bore to the bottom. In so doing, they increased their MPG's by something like 1.2% which yeilded far more in emissions credits than the program cost and also cost far-far-far less than developing a new block with improved coolant flow paths.
The main benefit of keeping the bore evenly cooled was improved ring sealing that accounted for lower fuel consumption and less blow-by which help with oil consumption and keeps key parts of the exhaust alive longer. The original temperature difference was in the mid double-digits from what I recall, and the baffle got them into single digit territory.
 
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