Doug's headers and mini-starters

[B3422w5]

I was at O ‘Reilly’s a while back when installing new headers on my dart. Had a Dakota mini starter and the fit was ultra tight.
Took the starter in to compare with what else they had. Pulled 2 Dakota starters out of boxes and both were a bit different than the one I had( and one was shorter by a bit than the other two)
Looking at the one I was using and the other two, I could see one would work.
Moral of the story, those starters come different, if the fit is tight or doesn’t work, do what I did. Another one might work.

 

[Uncle Bob]

As long as you've got room on the backside of the bellhousing for a bolt head, you could drill it out to the same size as the unthreaded hole in the starter and put the bolt in bassakwards from what it's always been.

If I drilled the top starter bolt through it would pass right through one of the pivot bolt holes. The shape on the backside doesn't look compatible with a bolt hole and no way to get in there to grind it flat either. So that's a no-go.

It successfully bolts onto a slant 6.

If it doesn't hit on the block or other parts it will bolt right onto any Mopar then, so you weren't wrong to think it would fit an LA or RB.

Moral of the story, those starters come different, if the fit is tight or doesn’t work, do what I did. Another one might work.

I'm going to take the starter I've got with me to see if there is anything different on the shelf in a mini-starter that I don't have to use a drill to make it work.

 

[trapster]

Power steering and a 4 speed is going to be fun, had to go with a flaming river ujoint to get that to work, and the zbar still hits the header. Is this an early A ?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Power steering and a 4 speed is going to be fun, had to go with a flaming river ujoint to get that to work, and the zbar still hits the header. Is this an early A ?

No it's a 71 duster.

It has had a 4-speed before, came with a couple of big block bellhousings and an A-body transmission, but had a 727 installed.

 

[JDMopar]

I went out and looked at one of my small block bellhousings and the top hole for the starter is a blind hole. And, like you said, it goes back into the area where the Z bar bracket bolts to the bell. If the top bolt hole in the hemi starter is the one that needs to be drilled out.....I'll drill it to get a better starter.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I just called Doug's to be sure and all they could tell me is they can only guarantee that MP part number they list will fit, and that various Denso starters can vary dimensionally, like other posters have mentioned in this thread.

I'm going to pick up both a mini-starter and the 5.7 starter I ordered yesterday, and whichever one fits best and costs less will be my choice. Of course if only the 5.7 fits then cost goes out the window. But I can bring them both home and try them, then return what I don't use.

If the top bolt hole in the hemi starter is the one that needs to be drilled out.....I'll drill it to get a better starter.

It is the top one, you can see threads in some of the on-line photos. Which is good, because you can hang it on the stud and not have to fight with it to get the bolt lined up.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I can say for sure that a 5.7 starter would not fit my 77 360. It hits the block where it angles out toward the bellhousing mounting surface. You can see it's not even close to fitting. It's hanging on the bottom stud in this photo:

The curved area is where it hits.

I also picked up another Magnum mini-starter, and it is just a little bit different and fits a little bit better but I still feel like I need to ding the header. I think a lot of what looks like interference is caused by the camera, low light, etc. When I had it on the header kind of curves around it and now it's not right up against it. Also note how the insulator on this one pulls back where the one on the other starter wouldn't (without tearing it up)

I'm going to just work with this mini-starter, even if I do end up beating the heck out of the header to make myself feel better about it. I think if I can get a thermal shield in between the starter and header I'll be OK.

 

[JDMopar]

Well, shoot! I was hoping the Hemi starter would fit and work. I need to go look at my 273 block and see if it has that same curved place in it. Hopefully you can make that Magnum starter live happy in the space.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Something else to watch out for on these mini-starters is that some have a plug-in for the solenoid wire. This one I picked up yesterday has that, and I'm finding today that it's not obvious that I can buy a pigtail for it. Dorman seems to make every pigtail known to man, except that one.

If anyone has a part number or source for that, I appreciate your help. Otherwise the new mini-starter is going back too because I can't wire the blasted thing up.

 

[JDMopar]

You can take that adapter off the top of the solenoid and bolt your wire straight up there if the starter you got is like all that I've seen.

I'm sorry that I steered you wrong and got your hopes up on the Hemi starter. It ain't gonna fit my 273 either, because my block has that same curve in the casting, so it's a no-go with a 10.5 inch bellhousing or a 904. I do believe that starter would work with a small block 727 though. The starter location on a small block 727 is lower than a 904 or straight drive bellhousing. I'd say that's where the difference lies.

 

[Uncle Bob]

You can take that adapter off the top of the solenoid and bolt your wire straight up there if the starter you got is like all that I've seen.

It's not one of those adapters, it's an actual pin connector that they added right around 1999. I bought a 1999 because I've got a 99 truck so that was at the top of my mind. I've never changed the starter on it though, so I didn't know the connector had changed.

This one has the adapter on it, shown with the cover removed. It is for a 1992 D150 318, which is what you want. It is my next attempt, if it's too close, I've got a mapp torch, a big piece of galvanized pipe, and a BFH. I'm over it.

 

[Uncle Bob]

The headers are mounted now, I can fit my finger between the bottom terminal and the header, and have about 0.100 between the nearest tube and the solenoid so I think that's good to go.

One tube is laying right against the steering gear. Shimming under the motor mount made it worse. It looks like the whole thing needs to move forward just a tiny bit because there's a curve right there cast into the steering box where it looks like the tube is intended to go.

Maybe I don't need to do anything though. Looking for opinions. The mounting brackets are repops from Schumacher and I think I've got them oriented the right way and on the right side.

 

[Inertia]

I'd get it in the vehicle, trans mounted, then loosen the fasteners everywhere, and shift the motor/trans as mentioned in many previous posts, - before I put a single ding in the header.
Good luck.

 

[Scamp Rhonda]

There is a lot of movement possible when all the bolts are loose. Forward, backward, right and left. I wonder if those headers were actually made for power steering? Regardless, it looks like you're really close now. I think you can do it. Good luck. An extra helping hand might help also.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I'd get it in the vehicle, trans mounted, then loosen the fasteners everywhere, and shift the motor/trans as mentioned in many previous posts, - before I put a single ding in the header.
Good luck.

There is a lot of movement possible when all the bolts are loose. Forward, backward, right and left. I wonder if those headers were actually made for power steering? Regardless, it looks like you're really close now. I think you can do it. Good luck. An extra helping hand might help also.

I also had a fellow remind me that the k-frame and trans xmember don't live on the same plane as they will after it's in the car. Things are gonna change at that point.

The bolts between the mount bracket and the block are loose, and all the mount studs are tight right now. I forgot about that too.

Yes these headers are made for power steering. I bet once I've got it all in the car it puts the tube right into that curve in the steering gear.

 

[Inertia]

I don't know if the Doug's have gotten better, - they were always pretty good, but I haven't had to ding a tube in quite a few sets, and ratchet straps around the trans/T-bar. and fence posts up the collector can be helpful for that final clearance .

 

[trapster]

The headers are mounted now, I can fit my finger between the bottom terminal and the header, and have about 0.100 between the nearest tube and the solenoid so I think that's good to go.

One tube is laying right against the steering gear. Shimming under the motor mount made it worse. It looks like the whole thing needs to move forward just a tiny bit because there's a curve right there cast into the steering box where it looks like the tube is intended to go.

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Maybe I don't need to do anything though. Looking for opinions. The mounting brackets are repops from Schumacher and I think I've got them oriented the right way and on the right side.

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THat is why I mentioned you may need to get a Ujoint for the steering as the "rag" joint box is too big. I got the one with rubber in it to take out some of the whine in the steering wheel.

 

[trapster]

Of course this is a 64 dart, but there is a mini starter down in there somewhere. Lord help be if I ever need to replace it.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Of course this is a 64 dart, but there is a mini starter down in there somewhere. Lord help be if I ever need to replace it.

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the only thing similar between those headers and mine is the welded on tag and that they're headers. LOL.

I've got room for the column, don't foresee a problem there, but now I'm into a hassle over the power steering hose. It just won't fit. It's not a 71 pump but I thought a hose for a 71 with a Saginaw pump would do the trick, but no. I think my Saginaw pump is different. It's one of the squared off ones that I think of as being a GM part but it came on the 360.

The car had a Federal pump on it to begin with. That hose might work, I haven't tried it yet.

 

[trapster]

Maybe a hydraulic shop can help you with the hoses. Must be nice to have all that space to work with. It even looks like all the header pipes are on the same side of the column.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Maybe a hydraulic shop can help you with the hoses. Must be nice to have all that space to work with. It even looks like all the header pipes are on the same side of the column.

The problem with a hydro shop is I don't have a hose that fits for them to reuse the metal parts.

I was certainly pleased with the way those headers fit once I got the starter situation sorted. I had to grind a little bit off a piece sticking out on the bottom of the passenger side bellhousing but other than that they bolted straight on. It wouldn't have been so easy in the car though.

All that space was definitely good, except when I'd have to work on something underneath it. It took way too long to put the crossmember on the transmission.

 

[harvenator]

Well. I may have made a mistake in posting that a few years ago, stating it fits a v-8. That info I found I think was in the slant 6 forums. It successfully bolts onto a slant 6. I got all that info from SSDan, not realizing we are talking about a v-8…

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When I swapped from a 6 to V8 in my 65 Barracuda 4 speed, I reused the stock 6 starter for several years and replaced it with a mini when it finally crapped out.

 

[Inertia]

Seems to me I found a 90* fitting to screw into the pump fitting, and another (45*??) for the top of the box, and a straight fabbed hose fit.
Too many years ago.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Seems to me I found a 90* fitting to screw into the pump fitting, and another (45*??) for the top of the box, and a straight fabbed hose fit.
Too many years ago.

I just ordered a Federal bracket kit and will go back to using the pump and hose that came from the 400 that used to be in the car.

I will have a self-rebuilt Saginaw pump, brackets, pressure hose, and a cooler listed before too long.

 

[Uncle Bob]

FWIW up up and away. Followed Andy F's lead and lifted the k-frame/engine/trans assembly up using my cherry picker. I had to spend one evening getting the transmission aligned with the mount, so I ended up in a battle to loosen then retighten all the motor mount bolts. It's exactly that kind of stuff that led me to go with the k-frame install, but you can't have it all.

The headers don't touch the steering box now either. I don't think they could've fit any tighter

There's a 1/4" stack of shims under the driver's side biscuit to try to level it out. Will check with a level once the car's back on it's tires