Dougs headers blues

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396 Signet

396 Signet

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This topic has probably been visited before but might as well rehash. Been mocking up my Dougs headers & have run into several issues with 4 speed trans. I have 2 bellhousings, one is the original & also a 1969 aluminum 10.5 inch. Starter fit with the stock bellhousing is OK but very tight with stock & standard ministarter. With the 10.5 bellhousing, neither starter will fit as there is interferance with a downpipe & the starter main body. Fairly certain this could be remedied with an adjustable starter such as the one in the TTI link. or alternately the pipe could be moved. The bigger issue is clutch activation. Had originally intended to use the Brewer's modified early A linkage but there is no way to make this work. The Brewers linkage moves the pivot out & uses a shoter z-bar, unfortunately this puts the linkage where the pipes are. If you were to try & move the linkage inward with a custom pivot bracket, the linkage would hit a critical part of the bellhousing (starter mount). Bottom line it appears you cannot use a mechanical linkage with the 10.5 bellhousing & Doug's headers. This leaves only a hydraulic setup if you want to use the 10.5 housing. The big issue with a hydraulic clutch is the master cylinder. The proximity of the headers to the clutch rod opening on the firewall pretty much excludes an external MC as it would be cooked. Fabricating a bracket for an internally mounted MC using the stock pedals would be difficult due to the limited space available. Also, the firewall might also have to be reinforced since all the pedal force would essentially be acting against it & it would be bound to flex some. As of the moment I am looking into the feasibility of the hydraulic setup but am leaning towards using the original 9.5 bellhousing with the stock linkage. Mcleod offers a 122-tooth SFI steel flywheel (part # 464001) although it is listed for slant six applications. Turns out this flywheel is the same as the V8 flywheel except that the flywheel surface is 0.165" closer to the crank flange surface. Hopefully there would be no interferance with the starter gear but worst case the starter could be moved a bit. McLeed does not offer the V8 122-tooth flywheel but will make a custom for about $600 (ouch). At any rate, with the SFI steel flywheel, you could use any 9.5 inch clutch sold by Mcleod, even their Rev-lok sintered iron setup which should hold a good amount of torque. This should be more than adequate for any tires that will fit in the stock wheel wells.
 
I am running the Doug's headers myself, and a Lakewood bell (makes it even worse than a factory unit because it changes the clocking on the starter) but I digress.

Mcleod makes a hydraulic throwout that fits inside the bellhousing, eliminating the interference of the clutch fork (because it's no longer needed). I also used the Wilwood master cylinder instead of the Keisler master, because the Keisler unit would interfere directly with cylinder #7's primary. I am putting together a list of parts for the Tremec early A-body installation thread so check back there in a few days as I will include the throwout and flywheel part numbers.

Cheers!
 
396 Signet - welcome aboard.

Early-As are a pain...clearances are tight and nothing fits like the product literature says and you hope it will .

Concerning your issues....are you married to having the Doug's headers? I know it is money to shift mid-stream, but your solutions seem to cost a bunch too. Maybe a different set of headers will help with your manual install.

Only my early-a, I have TTIs with a 727 and it was a pain to get everything to fit.

Several other users have the TTIs with external hydraulic master cylinders and 130 tooth flywheels and the wider Lakewood scatter shields. See the following from Daves66valiant install. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=18384

Do some searches on this board and you'll find some very informative info.

Good luck and welcome aboard.
 
Silverfish, I'm aware of the McCleod hydraulic TO bearing. My main concern was the master, would be interested to see what you used. Agree the Keisler is a no-go. Looked through all the Tilton stuff before & nothing appeared to work without serious mods, the best appeared to be the type with the heim jount that's normally used with a balance bar. Should have added that I like to try & maintain as much a stock look as possible, I want to maintain the original pedals & steadfastly refuse to cut any original sheetmetal. I was going to use steel wheels with custom offset to put the max width tires in w/o cutting, they will still have no more than 8" tread which a 9.5" clutch should easily be able to overpower. Did look into other brands, paid for Spitfires years ago & received nothing, TTIs have their own issues. Unfortunately no matter what way you go it won't be cheap or easy.
 
396 Signet said:
Silverfish, I'm aware of the McCleod hydraulic TO bearing. My main concern was the master, would be interested to see what you used. Agree the Keisler is a no-go. Looked through all the Tilton stuff before & nothing appeared to work without serious mods, the best appeared to be the type with the heim jount that's normally used with a balance bar. Should have added that I like to try & maintain as much a stock look as possible, I want to maintain the original pedals & steadfastly refuse to cut any original sheetmetal. I was going to use steel wheels with custom offset to put the max width tires in w/o cutting, they will still have no more than 8" tread which a 9.5" clutch should easily be able to overpower. Did look into other brands, paid for Spitfires years ago & received nothing, TTIs have their own issues. Unfortunately no matter what way you go it won't be cheap or easy.
Click to expand...

I have attched a pic of the only sheetmetal work that might eliminate the Wilwood as an option for you. I cut an opening just above the factory speedo cable hole and relocated the speedo to a plug opening below. This was necessary to obtain the optimum amount of travel keeping the master's piston inline with the factory pedal attachment point. I also used the factory pedals, and have put a number of these images on the Early A-body Tremec thread. Please check it out as it may answer some of your questions before I get to putting up the list of parts.

Cheers!

DSC05040.jpg
 
First off want to say - been there done that. I just wish you had gotten to read some of my posts that talk about my problems with Doug's not fitting the 10.5" clutch before you found out yourself.

I have gone through and am still going through the same issues you are going through. My current plan is to use the Keisler parts, minus the hyd. TOB, and buy the McCloud TOB to work with the Keisler parts. Wish I could say it will all work, but am still working on it all - it's a slow process.

In regards to ditching the Doug's and going with TTI - I still have yet to get 100% confirmation that the TTI's will work with the mechanical clutch linkage on the stock 10.5" bellhousing. It might, but I can't find anybody that has tried as of yet.
 
396 Signet said:
This topic has probably been visited before but might as well rehash. Been mocking up my Dougs headers & have run into several issues with 4 speed trans. I have 2 bellhousings, one is the original & also a 1969 aluminum 10.5 inch. Starter fit with the stock bellhousing is OK but very tight with stock & standard ministarter. With the 10.5 bellhousing, neither starter will fit as there is interferance with a downpipe & the starter main body. Fairly certain this could be remedied with an adjustable starter such as the one in the TTI link. or alternately the pipe could be moved. The bigger issue is clutch activation. Had originally intended to use the Brewer's modified early A linkage but there is no way to make this work. The Brewers linkage moves the pivot out & uses a shoter z-bar, unfortunately this puts the linkage where the pipes are. If you were to try & move the linkage inward with a custom pivot bracket, the linkage would hit a critical part of the bellhousing (starter mount). Bottom line it appears you cannot use a mechanical linkage with the 10.5 bellhousing & Doug's headers. This leaves only a hydraulic setup if you want to use the 10.5 housing. The big issue with a hydraulic clutch is the master cylinder. The proximity of the headers to the clutch rod opening on the firewall pretty much excludes an external MC as it would be cooked. Fabricating a bracket for an internally mounted MC using the stock pedals would be difficult due to the limited space available. Also, the firewall might also have to be reinforced since all the pedal force would essentially be acting against it & it would be bound to flex some. As of the moment I am looking into the feasibility of the hydraulic setup but am leaning towards using the original 9.5 bellhousing with the stock linkage. Mcleod offers a 122-tooth SFI steel flywheel (part # 464001) although it is listed for slant six applications. Turns out this flywheel is the same as the V8 flywheel except that the flywheel surface is 0.165" closer to the crank flange surface. Hopefully there would be no interferance with the starter gear but worst case the starter could be moved a bit. McLeed does not offer the V8 122-tooth flywheel but will make a custom for about $600 (ouch). At any rate, with the SFI steel flywheel, you could use any 9.5 inch clutch sold by Mcleod, even their Rev-lok sintered iron setup which should hold a good amount of torque. This should be more than adequate for any tires that will fit in the stock wheel wells.
Click to expand...

I mocked mine up and I didn't have a clearance problem. Granted there is not much room and it's a PITA but I was able to make it work. As far as on the street the hyd throw out would be great but I'm not sure how it would work in a competition setting. Maybe someone using the hyd clutch on a drag car will pipe in.
 
The early A’s shorter clutch fork exits the bellhousing @ 90 degrees (i.e. parallel to the road or shop floor) because of the orientation of the pivot. The early A pivot can be used with the longer 10.5 inch clutch fork. However, I noticed at the wrecking yard that the 10.5 inch clutch fork pivot allows the longer clutch fork to point downward slightly and allows more room for exhaust to exit. Maybe that might help. The picture shows the 10.5 inch clutch setup with the longer downward pointing fork clearing 3 inch pipes. May not help you, if Doug’s collector location is causing the obstruction.

ClutchForks.JPG


BottemViewClutchFork.JPG
 
Jahsh, I've read your posts & looked at your website regarding your hydraulic setup, in part that's one of a number of reasons why I'm hesitant to go this route. As far as the mechanical linkage with the Doug's, the location of the pipes pretty much precludes this, granted I'm sure you could make it work with some different headers or manifolds. Dougs actually warns that the 10.5 bell won't work, but some hardheaded guys like me still like to try. If anyone wants to see the setup, I can take some pics tonight, currently I have the 10.5 bell & headers mocked up on some horses in my garage. I'm kind of interested in why no one really tries to use the 9.5 setup, as long as you don't tub the car and/ or use slicks, this should be adequate. McLeod has some decent parts for this setup & price wise it's probably cheaper than the 10.5 arrangement if you have to buy all the parts. Of course, it appears that Mcleod is the only vendor for the 9.5 stuff whereas the 10.5 stuff is available everywhere.
 
Blues65 said:
The early A’s shorter clutch fork exits the bellhousing @ 90 degrees (i.e. parallel to the road or shop floor) because of the orientation of the pivot. The early A pivot can be used with the longer 10.5 inch clutch fork. However, I noticed at the wrecking yard that the 10.5 inch clutch fork pivot allows the longer clutch fork to point downward slightly and allows more room for exhaust to exit. Maybe that might help. The picture shows the 10.5 inch clutch setup with the longer downward pointing fork clearing 3 inch pipes. May not help you, if Doug’s collector location is causing the obstruction.
Click to expand...

How's the Corp today Marine? You have to use the pivot that Brewers sells with the fork in order for everything to work. I can't speak specific to Dougs headers since I'm using TTI's.
 
Hi dart4forte, I was just trying to point out the differences in the fork design, incase 396 Signet was using the 9.5 inch pivot with the 10.5 inch fork that would most likely cause problems.

Funny you should ask, I left the Corp back in 1967 and hadn’t talked with any of the guys since. Last week, out of the clear blue sky, I get a call and it was one of the guys I served with. Turns out there are a platoon reunion in Farmington Missouri next month.
 
Blues65 said:
Hi dart4forte, I was just trying to point out the differences in the fork design, incase 396 Signet was using the 9.5 inch pivot with the 10.5 inch fork that would most likely cause problems.

Funny you should ask, I left the Corp back in 1967 and hadn’t talked with any of the guys since. Last week, out of the clear blue sky, I get a call and it was one of the guys I served with. Turns out there are a platoon reunion in Farmington Missouri next month.
Click to expand...

I went back to read some of his posts and I am not sure what he is running. All I know is that if he runs the 10.5 clutch he needs to use the Brewers short fork and pivot.

I retired in 95 (Army) and I too got an e-mail from a guy I was stationed with in Germany in the late 70's. I was kina supprised since i lost track of a lot of guys from the last 30 years. it would be neat to meet up with some of them.
 
Hi Dart4forte:
I put a 10.95 inch scallop clutch in my 65 Barracuda because I wanted a Borg & Beck style clutch (clutch pedal sticks to the floor on diaphragm style clutches). The Scallop clutch requires way more pedal pressure to actuate than I had planed on and way too much for the small clutch fork (too small a fulcrum). So I tried the longer clutch fork with the 9.5 inch pivot and that placed the fork right where the exhaust needed to exit. I then noticed the 10.5 inch pivot angled the fork downward so the exhaust pipe could pass above it. I also modified a Z bar with longer lower lever to fit into the stock Barracuda location. I am unclear too about whether Doug’s would work in this application just thought I would mention it.

I had always planned on shipping over since I was a High School drop out with zero prospects but at the last minute I changed my mind. Wound up going to college on the GI Bill instead. I haven’t seen these guys since 1966.
 
Just looked up the price on the McLeod hydraulic TO bearing- $429 with the required spacer from Summit- ouch! Since I don't have any parts except the bellhousing, it looks like around $1000 or more to convert to the hydraulic 10.5 setup if you used good quality new parts. Did a quick addup of the parts I need & came up with $1484! I'm still looking into the 9.5 stuff but have more research to do.
 
396 Signet said:
Just looked up the price on the McLeod hydraulic TO bearing- $429 with the required spacer from Summit- ouch! Since I don't have any parts except the bellhousing, it looks like around $1000 or more to convert to the hydraulic 10.5 setup if you used good quality new parts. Did a quick addup of the parts I need & came up with $1484! I'm still looking into the 9.5 stuff but have more research to do.
Click to expand...

Where are you located?
 
i currently use the tilton master cylinder,,looks excatly like the one from wilwood that silver fish uses,,,i also attached mine thru the fire wall,,but excatly at the speedo cable hole,,to get the correct pedal pivot position,,and made a bracket off of the clutch pedal to attache it too,i use a tilton hyd bearing with a mopar 4 speed and a ansen scatter shield,,,only thing differnt is i have custom built headers,, but my point is you can use the tilton/wilwood master cylinder,,,east install,,and use the factory shift fork,and a slave cylinder,,and advoid the now costly hyd bearing and achieve the clearance you need,,some one on this site has a slave cylinder he posted picsw how to intall and make the bracket,,,im sure that will solve your problem,,
 
looking at the pics you posted under another topic title,,,from qwhat i can see,it looks like one end of that pipe is a bolt flange,,the other end must be a slip in ?? get some pipe same quality,and size,, put that block in the car,, the bell housing u are going to use,fork,any thing in that area,, and re shape that pipe, find a guy that can weld mig will work but try to find a guy that can weld tig,,unles you know some ones skills im not talking about your local discount muffler shop,,,its not that hard to do,, mAY be cheaper and easier to re make that pipe,,, or,, you can contact,,DOUGS,,headers,, doug has sold out the busniess from what i understand,,maybe they have a revised pipe for a stick car,, cant hurt to call and ask,,,but re making that one pipe is an easy fix,,,
 
Has anyone come up with a solution for the 10.5" clutch issue and Doug's headers. I just ran into this problem yesterday and forgot about this thread. I thought the car had the stock 9.5" clutch and bellhousing. Apparently not. Dammit.

I'm thinking I may have to go with the shorter clutch fork and build a custom modified z-bar.

Please post if you found any solutions for a mechanical clutch and Doug's Headers. Would love to make these headers work because they were free as long as I do a write up on the install. Looks like it is going to be more work than I bargained for. Damn early a-bodies and non-fenderwell long-tube headers :sad:

Dave
 
My solution was a Wilcap custom billet flywheel (122 tooth), rebuilt 9-1/2" Borg-Beck pressure plate, & a McLeod 9-1/4" Rev-lok disc. Not all that cheap but works fine with all stock linkage. Posted pics of setup before, with the 4-speed topics maybe? Don't know exactly what's up with McLeod of late, you may not be able to get the disc anymore. The Revlok is a special street iron type, it has a marcel (spring) carrier. It can handle big torque loads. With the Wilcap flywheel ($325) you also have the option of a 10" diaphragm pressure plate, these are used on some Fords. 10.5" pressure plates won't work on the 122 tooth flywheel (bolt circle too large). The hydraulic option can be costly although some have found cheap ways like using a fabbed external slave setup. Doing a hydraulic the way I wanted was going to cost well over $1000 but I was going to go a bit exotic using a hidden master, modified pedals, & Tilton/ Wilwood parts.
 
Jeez.

Is there any way you could fab your own z-bar with the torque arms inthe position you need to clear the headers with the shorter 10-1/2" clutch fork? I believe I have the 12-1/2" fork now because the for is not parallel with the road.

I can weld my own z-bar if this is possible. Any additional insight would be great. I'm not spending annother 5-600 just to keep headers in the car. I'll put the Spitfires back on.
 
Dave,

I currently have the short throwout fork with the 10.5" clutch in my 66. Here are some photos. Hope they help. Sorry about the cobwebs!

I assume these headers are going on your red car, not the convertible?

IMG_0448 (Large).jpg


IMG_0449 (Large).jpg


IMG_0450 (Large).jpg
 
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