Droped spindles VS offset bushings

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CurtDawg510

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I got a 70 duster that sits about 1/16" above bump stops
Its got big torsion bars, sway bars, subframes, etc
It handles real good with the stock style suspension

So the alinment shop can never get camber or caster perfect,
Cuz its lowered so much and control arms are pushed up...
I kno offset bushings wud be the simple ez fix

But wudnt droped spindles be better?
The only thing that worrys me is the wheel center will be higher in between control arms
Wud that take away from the good handling i got now?
Or mayb increase the handling a bit??
Or no change you can feel??

Im running stock type bump stops ( thoz triangles)
So its a progressave bumpstop.... It dont hit hard

What is your imput???
Thank you!
 
If you are street running,you are probably pushing the envelope for lowered running.
The offset bushings are just for getting some decent caster.
If you are THAT low, on stock parts, you probably have little to no caster.
You say it handles "real good", and "it don't hit hard",So who cares about the "perfect alignment".
There is no perfect alignment on Mopars,only compromises. But if your alignment guy is trying to achieve "perfect" numbers based on 45 year old specs for old-technology tires, well then throw those "perfect" targets out.

"Perfect" is when you are happy with it...Don't mess with it.

About the best caster you can achieve, with offset bushings,no strut-rod fudging, and 1/2 deg of neg camber, and correcting for the worst side,and assuming the rear is up a tad, is maybe 3.5*pos.
A bigger concern is bump-steer. If you don't have any now... leave it alone.
For street driving,I set the rideheight to the lowest point of the K,(on the CL of the car), at about 5.75 inches or so from the pavement with 24.5 inch front tires.
 
Do not waste your time with drop spindles, you don't need them.

Get the offset UCA bushings, and get rid of the stock bumpstops for a set of these http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-9132g/overview/. Set your ride height where you want it. How big are your torsion bars? If they're over 1", you only need about an inch of clearance to the short bumpstop. Get an alignment like -.5* camber, +3* to +5* caster, and 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. The stock alignment specs are for bias ply's, not radials, and are horrible for radials.

The short bumpstops are only .375" tall, the stockers are almost 1.5". So you could still lower your car some with the new bumpstops. As long as your torsion bars are over 1" you shouldn't have a problem with hitting the bumpstops.
 
Do not waste your time with drop spindles, you don't need them.

Get the offset UCA bushings, and get rid of the stock bumpstops for a set of these http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-9132g/overview/. Set your ride height where you want it. How big are your torsion bars? If they're over 1", you only need about an inch of clearance to the short bumpstop. Get an alignment like -.5* camber, +3* to +5* caster, and 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. The stock alignment specs are for bias ply's, not radials, and are horrible for radials.

The short bumpstops are only .375" tall, the stockers are almost 1.5". So you could still lower your car some with the new bumpstops. As long as your torsion bars are over 1" you shouldn't have a problem with hitting the bumpstops.


I wanna say torsion bars are like .910? Maybe??
I will get offset bushings and align it to those specs, and see if it corners a lil better!
Thank you
 
With the smaller bars your car will take a set as the outside settles on the bumpstop. For a streeter this is great........until you hit a bump or a pothole in mid turn. And when you lose control and mount a curb in Winnipeg Manitoba, you can kiss that aluminum wheel goodbye,as you call for a tow-truck.
 
I wanna say torsion bars are like .910? Maybe??
I will get offset bushings and align it to those specs, and see if it corners a lil better!
Thank you

It will corner better with the new alignment, but you won't be able to go any lower with those torsion bars. If anything you might need more travel than you have now to stay off the new bumpstops, and you will know when you hit them because they aren't the soft, progressive bump stops that the factory ones are. With your current set up you have to be on the bump stops pretty much constantly.

Ride height on these cars controls the amount of available suspension travel. Lowering the car reduces the amount of available travel, so you have to match your wheel rate (and torsion bar size) to the amount of available travel you have. With stock bars, you need all of the available travel that comes with the stock ride height (and then some, hence the progressive bump stops).

To get your available travel down to 1", you should have at least 1.03" or 1.06" diameter torsion bars if you intend to stay off of your bump stops (and you should). Your car will handle better too. If you plan on keeping the sub 1" bars at that ride height you'll need the drop spindles. Since the drop spindles cost more than a set of 1.06" bars from Firm Feel, I'd buy the bars instead. Better handling and less bump steer than with the drop spindles. Use your left over cash to buy some decent shocks, like the Bilstein RCD's or Hotchkis Fox's.

I run my Duster with a smidge less than 1" of clearance between the frame and those .375" bump stops. But I also have 1.12" torsion bars. My car sits at about 25" from the ground to the top of the wheel opening with 25.7" tall front tires (275/35/18's). The K-frame is about 5 3/8" off the deck. The car does daily driver duty, typically my primary driver gets about 10k miles a year. Not sure how the roads here compare to those in Winnipeg, but California has the 7th worst roads in the US. http://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-states-with-the-worst-roads-2015-7
 
IMO, If you lower the car more that one inch lower that oem spec. the front end geometry goes out the window. Was it all that great to begin with? NO. but with that a fact. you need to be into changing the upper control arms and or pick-up points to achieve more castor, and correct the camber curve. that's where dropped spindles are some benefit. In that you can maintain the imperfect factory geometry rather than make it worse.
If you are only interested in a pleasure driver on the street or straight line stuff it's not too big a deal, but if you want a "canyon carver" then some changes will be in order.
 
IMO, If you lower the car more that one inch lower that oem spec. the front end geometry goes out the window. Was it all that great to begin with? NO. but with that a fact. you need to be into changing the upper control arms and or pick-up points to achieve more castor, and correct the camber curve. that's where dropped spindles are some benefit. In that you can maintain the imperfect factory geometry rather than make it worse.
If you are only interested in a pleasure driver on the street or straight line stuff it's not too big a deal, but if you want a "canyon carver" then some changes will be in order.

The factory front end geometry NEEDS to go out the window. It was set up for bias ply tires, which have much different characteristics than radials do. Remember, the factory geometry included positive camber and negative caster. #-o

When lowering the car, you don't need to change the stock UCA's. Tubular arms are nice, and I run them on my cars, but they aren't absolutely necessary. Most lowered cars can get enough caster back with the offset UCA bushings to run the alignment specs I posted above, otherwise I wouldn't have posted those specs and suggested that the OP get offset bushings.

Lowering the car does not make the factory geometry worse, either. It actually IMPROVES the camber curves, lowers the roll center, and slightly reduces bump steer (although this was small to begin with). It does make getting the caster positive a little more difficult, but the offset bushings correct that.

On the flip side, adding drop spindles can make the geometry even worse than factory. How? Because most people don't lower their cars a full 2". If you lower your car 2" from factory with 2" drop spindles, most of your geometry stays the same because the angle of the control arms is unchanged. Camber curves stay the same. The roll center is lowered with respect to the ground, but not with respect to the car. But, if you don't lower the car 2", you actually have raised the suspension. It's confusing, I know. But, if you lower the ride height of your car 1.5" while using 2" drop spindles, you actually had to raise the control arms. And that makes your camber curves worse. And increases your bump steer. And raises the roll center with respect to the car (even if it's still lower with respect to the ground).

The best suspension geometry for handling characteristics on these cars occurs when the control arms are roughly parallel to the ground. From that point, compression always adds negative camber, which is what you want. The steering arms are almost parallel to the control arms, and they're parallel to the ground, so bump steer is minimal. The static camber is usually negative, and you just have to get the correct amount of positive caster, either with offset bushings or tubular arms.

You don't even have to believe me. The article that covers the geometry changes between the standard 73+ A-body and FMJ spindles plotted out all of the suspension geometry for a lowered car, because the car used in the article was lowered 1" from stock and used 26" tall tires. You can see the roll center, camber curves, bump steer, all of it. The bit about it being lowered is in the caption attached to picture #9 in their slideshow, it's not in the main text. And 1" lowered from stock isn't even where the best geometry is at. :D

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/mopp-0503-swapping-a-and-b-disc-brake-spindles/
 
Thank you for thoz alignment specs, i finally got it aligned and it handles way better then ever before!!
Next will be bigger torsion bars, short bump stops, and adjustible upper control arms (just to get it really dialed in)
Hope to see you at some bay area mopar event
Thank you!


Do not waste your time with drop spindles, you don't need them.

Get the offset UCA bushings, and get rid of the stock bumpstops for a set of these http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-9132g/overview/. Set your ride height where you want it. How big are your torsion bars? If they're over 1", you only need about an inch of clearance to the short bumpstop. Get an alignment like -.5* camber, +3* to +5* caster, and 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. The stock alignment specs are for bias ply's, not radials, and are horrible for radials.

The short bumpstops are only .375" tall, the stockers are almost 1.5". So you could still lower your car some with the new bumpstops. As long as your torsion bars are over 1" you shouldn't have a problem with hitting the bumpstops.
 
I cut that factory bumps stops down with a utility knife, spend the savings on better shocks.

IMG_0674.JPG
 
If it's bottoming the torsion bars are not big enough! Plus in Canada everything cost $100 by the time you get it shipped here so I been cutting down the factory ones for years.
 
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