E body brake conversion confusion

[jawbone]

Issue 1: Want to perform disc brake conversion on 68 Barracuda. Purchased 73 E body spindles (pn 3402626 and 3402627), 11 inch rotors and pin style calipers. Now for the confusing part. I understood the upper control arm would require replacement to accept large ball joint. If this is the case then why the following.

1973 DODGE DART Classic Performance A6374WBIK-S Classic Performance Stock-Type Control Arms | Summit Racing

Thought I could use later model A body upper control arm that accepts large ball joint.

Issue 2: Pins on calipers were bent in shipping. Replacements I have found are for pre 73. Cannot find for 73 and later. Mine are 5 1/4 inches long which is same as advertised. Do I possibly have earlier model calipers? Have a set of sliding calipers. Can I use them in lieu of pin style?

 

[72bluNblu]

Issue 1: CPP’s application chart is completely useless. This is just their stupid way of saying those are A-body UCA’s with the large upper ball joints. So a 73+ A body UCA is the same thing. B/E bodies used the same large upper ball joint as the 73+ A bodies.

Issue 2: I’m pretty sure that the pins are the same, I have definitely swapped pins between calipers that were from 72 down and 73+. Or at least were advertised as such, so, maybe that’s not a good indicator. The pin style caliper brackets are definitely interchangeable ‘70-72 and 73+, because I’ve run early calipers on the later 11.75” caliper brackets for a rotor upgrade.

And yes, you can use the slider calipers on those spindles as long as you have the matching caliper brackets, which you appear to have.

 

[jawbone]

Issue 1: CPP’s application chart is completely useless. This is just their stupid way of saying those are A-body UCA’s with the large upper ball joints. So an 73+ A body UCA is the same thing. B/E bodies used the same large upper ball joint at the 73+ A bodies.

Issue 2: I’m pretty sure that the pins are the same, I have definitely swapped pins between calipers that were from 72 down and 73+. Or at least were advertised as such, so, maybe that’s not a good indicator. The pin style caliper brackets are definitely interchangeable ‘70-72 and 73+, because I’ve run early calipers on the later 11.75” caliper brackets for a rotor upgrade.

And yes, you can use the slider calipers on those spindles as long as you have the matching caliper brackets, which you appear to have.

Thanks for the very informative and precise response. Can't thank you enough.

 

[jawbone]

Issue 1: CPP’s application chart is completely useless. This is just their stupid way of saying those are A-body UCA’s with the large upper ball joints. So a 73+ A body UCA is the same thing. B/E bodies used the same large upper ball joint as the 73+ A bodies.

Issue 2: I’m pretty sure that the pins are the same, I have definitely swapped pins between calipers that were from 72 down and 73+. Or at least were advertised as such, so, maybe that’s not a good indicator. The pin style caliper brackets are definitely interchangeable ‘70-72 and 73+, because I’ve run early calipers on the later 11.75” caliper brackets for a rotor upgrade.

And yes, you can use the slider calipers on those spindles as long as you have the matching caliper brackets, which you appear to have.

I posted another question regarding this issue. The pins provided me will not screw into caliper mounting bracket.

 

[72bluNblu]

I posted another question regarding this issue. The pins provided me will not screw into caliper mounting bracket.

Ok, I replied in your other thread. In the future it's usually easier to keep your questions that are on the same topic in the same thread, because I wouldn't have seen the new thread until you replied to this one. And now your answers are going to be in two different threads. Just food for thought.

 

[cudamark]

If it was me, I'd use the '73-6 A-body upper control arms with the larger ball joint, and the slider calipers. If your small ball joint upper control arms are like new, I might consider getting the tapered sleave adaptors for the later spindles.

 

[jawbone]

If it was me, I'd use the '73-6 A-body upper control arms with the larger ball joint, and the slider calipers. If your small ball joint upper control arms are like new, I might consider getting the tapered sleave adaptors for the later spindles.

I do have the set of slider calipers of which I like better than the pin style. As for the upper control arm, will probably get one from QA1 then I'm set. In the process of rebuilding the pin style calipers. Parts are expensive. Will be lucky to get my money back when I sell them.

 

[72bluNblu]

I do have the set of slider calipers of which I like better than the pin style. As for the upper control arm, will probably get one from QA1 then I'm set. In the process of rebuilding the pin style calipers. Parts are expensive. Will be lucky to get my money back when I sell them.

Yeah the pin style aren’t quite as well supported for parts, I think it’s just because they made a whole bunch more of the slider style.

It’s a point of debate, but the pin style in general are used a ton in modern calipers as well, and they have the added bonus of the sliding surface being replaceable (the pins). The slider style has more friction to the caliper sliding, and if the surface gets screwed up the calipers can hang up and wear the pads unevenly.

But for the old Mopar application there’s more parts and brake pads for the slider type.

 

[jawbone]

Yeah the pin style aren’t quite as well supported for parts, I think it’s just because they made a whole bunch more of the slider style.

It’s a point of debate, but the pin style in general are used a ton in modern calipers as well, and they have the added bonus of the sliding surface being replaceable (the pins). The slider style has more friction to the caliper sliding, and if the surface gets screwed up the calipers can hang up and wear the pads unevenly.

But for the old Mopar application there’s more parts and brake pads for the slider type.

Think your correct. So far I've invested $175 in pins and pistons. Got the pistons from Richard Ehrenberg who just happened to have some. RockAuto does not sell them. Let's just say I could not find any there. These are 2 3/4 wide.

 

[72bluNblu]

Think your correct. So far I've invested $175 in pins and pistons. Got the pistons from Richard Ehrenberg who just happened to have some. RockAuto does not sell them. Let's just say I could not find any there. These are 2 3/4 wide.

All of the B/E-body calipers have 2.75” pistons regardless of caliper type. For ‘76 and forward all of the A/B/E/F/M/J/R bodies have calipers with 2.75” pistons. I’d have to check a part # to be sure, but I thought the sliders and the pin type calipers used the same pistons if they used 2.75” pistons. That might be year dependent too though.

 

[jawbone]

All of the B/E-body calipers have 2.75” pistons regardless of caliper type. For ‘76 and forward all of the A/B/E/F/M/J/R bodies have calipers with 2.75” pistons. I’d have to check a part # to be sure, but I thought the sliders and the pin type calipers used the same pistons if they used 2.75” pistons. That might be year dependent too though.

The slider pistons I replaced are just south of 2 5/8. Do not know their origin. Checked 77 Monaco. Piston at 2 5/16. Same as for 73 Challenger which was origin of my pin style.

 

[72bluNblu]

The slider pistons I replaced are just south of 2 5/8. Do not know their origin. Checked 77 Monaco. Piston at 2 5/16. Same as for 73 Challenger which was origin of my pin style.

The ones that are ~2.6” are A-body, from ‘73-‘75+. Only A’s used those and they should all be sliders.

The rest of the single piston calipers have 2.75” bores, except for some C’s and trucks.

 

[jawbone]

The ones that are ~2.6” are A-body, from ‘73-‘75+. Only A’s used those and they should all be sliders.

The rest of the single piston calipers have 2.75” bores, except for some C’s and trucks.

That would agree with my short experience with them and means RockAuto not selling them. Get them from Richard Ehrenberg while you can. Think he said had 12 sets.

 

[72bluNblu]

That would agree with my short experience with them and means RockAuto not selling them. Get them from Richard Ehrenberg while you can. Think he said had 12 sets.

These are all listed as 2.75” caliper pistons…

And several of these are listed as 2 5/16

The books and cross references on RockAuto are not all correct, so, measure and order accordingly.

 

[jawbone]

These are all listed as 2.75” caliper pistons…

View attachment 1716312888

And several of these are listed as 2 5/16

View attachment 1716312891

The books and cross references on RockAuto are not all correct, so, measure and order accordingly.

I knew you were up to something. My piston height is 1 15/16 not the 1 3/4. Was referencing the 7504. Did find the correct one in your posting. It's the BETTER BRAKE PARTS 7505 but the Carlson 7505 was not 2.75 diameter. Very confusing to say the least. Guess I paid too much.

 

[72bluNblu]

I knew you were up to something. My piston height is 1 15/16 not the 1 3/4. Was referencing the 7504. Did find the correct one in your posting. It's the BETTER BRAKE PARTS 7505 but the Carlson 7505 was not 2.75 diameter. Very confusing to say the least. Guess I paid too much.

Yeah the parts book references online are pretty rough. And then sometimes they link up with the wrong part or part number, like I’m pretty sure RockAuto has them backward based on that applications they have listed.

The only nice thing is RockAuto lists dimensions on a lot of stuff, so if you can measure what you’ve got sometimes you can do an end around on the application list.

As far as I know all the single piston stuff is reproduced, it’s just a matter of figuring out the part number/application

 

[66Valiant528]

Just want to throw out there that there are at least 2 slider type brackets for different diameter rotors. A smaller set for the almost 11 inch rotor and a bigger set for the ll.75 "monoco" rotor. Make sure you have the right slider brackets for your rotor diameter.

 

[72bluNblu]

Just want to throw out there that there are at least 2 slider type brackets for different diameter rotors. A smaller set for the almost 11 inch rotor and a bigger set for the ll.75 "monoco" rotor. Make sure you have the right slider brackets for your rotor diameter.

So there are 4 I’m aware of for sliders, because there is an “HD” version of both the 10.87” caliper brackets and the 11.75” caliper brackets. They work the same but the HD version has a noticeably thicker casting. I don’t know if it was intentionally a heavy duty version, or if they made the casting lighter at some point or whatever because I didn’t have histories on them.

And there are also 10.87” and 11.75” pin style caliper brackets, so, 2 versions of those.

If you get into C-bodies and trucks there’s different stuff again, but they have different bolt spacing on the brackets so they’re not mounting up to the knuckles used on the non C body cars.

Rick Ehrenberg’s article has all the measurements for the different caliper brackets to ID them if you’re not sure what yours are. Just completely ignore the absolute schlock he preaches about the FMJ spindles, the geometry has been evaluated and everything he said about using FMJ spindles is wrong. His measurements are good though.

https://www.allpar.com/threads/disc...1&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1085245451

 

[Demonracer]

In the 5th picture of post #1, the pin on the left is bent. That will cause problems, ask me how I know.

 

[72bluNblu]

In the 5th picture of post #1, the pin on the left is bent. That will cause problems, ask me how I know.

He knows, that’s why he was trying to figure out which replacement pins would fit

From that same post

Issue 2: Pins on calipers were bent in shipping.



View attachment 1716307406

 

[jawbone]

Just want to throw out there that there are at least 2 slider type brackets for different diameter rotors. A smaller set for the almost 11 inch rotor and a bigger set for the ll.75 "monoco" rotor. Make sure you have the right slider brackets for your rotor diameter.

Thanks for the information. I have the set for a 11 inch rotor. Was all purchased together. Thanks for your comment.

 

[jawbone]

So there are 4 I’m aware of for sliders, because there is an “HD” version of both the 10.87” caliper brackets and the 11.75” caliper brackets. They work the same but the HD version has a noticeably thicker casting. I don’t know if it was intentionally a heavy duty version, or if they made the casting lighter at some point or whatever because I didn’t have histories on them.

And there are also 10.87” and 11.75” pin style caliper brackets, so, 2 versions of those.

If you get into C-bodies and trucks there’s different stuff again, but they have different bolt spacing on the brackets so they’re not mounting up to the knuckles used on the non C body cars.

Rick Ehrenberg’s article has all the measurements for the different caliper brackets to ID them if you’re not sure what yours are. Just completely ignore the absolute schlock he preaches about the FMJ spindles, the geometry has been evaluated and everything he said about using FMJ spindles is wrong. His measurements are good though.

https://www.allpar.com/threads/disc...1&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1085245451

Have read that article and confirmed my brackets were 10.87. You have quite the knowledge base. I deeply appreciate time and comments. Soon I will be asking about the E body spindles [3402626 and 3402627] and how to marry them to my A body steering. At the moment I'm stuck on what tires to buy. Cannot move the car until I do.

 

[72bluNblu]

Have read that article and confirmed my brackets were 10.87. You have quite the knowledge base. I deeply appreciate time and comments. Soon I will be asking about the E body spindles [3402626 and 3402627] and how to marry them to my A body steering. At the moment I'm stuck on what tires to buy. Cannot move the car until I do.

As long as you’ve got large ball joint UCA’s the E body spindles bolt right up, nothing else is different. You would just use a 73+ A body lower ball joint.

What wheels are you planning on running?

 

[jawbone]

As long as you’ve got large ball joint UCA’s the E body spindles bolt right up, nothing else is different. You would just use a 73+ A body lower ball joint.

What wheels are you planning on running?

And you answered the question to the riddle. Did not know what lower ball joint to use. This was a /6 car. Is there anything in the steering linkage to upgrade? Currently have 14 inch rallye wheels BBP 5.5 and 6 inch. Cannot decide tire wise what to do. Do not want clearance issues. When I had my AAR simply ran stock recommended tires. I can do 205/70R14 and 225/70R14 but members say there wimpy. Not adverse to buying 15 inch wheels to widen the search.

 

[Demonracer]

If you get the 15" wheels with 4" bolt circle, you will have a better selection of tire sizes.