electrical issues with the 67 fish

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red67cuda

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Hi Guys,
I have a 67 barracuda 273 4 speed coupe. I am at the end of my rope with and electrical issue. I recently replaced my instrument bezel with a new repro (very nice) and carefully cleaned and reinstalled the bulbs gauge cluster and all components. Here is the issues: 1, When I turn the key the car will not start. Not a click. I can start it at the starter relay switch by jumping with a screw driver. I have continuity all the way from the ignition switch to the starter relay. 2, I have no guage activity or lights on the dash with the exception of the speedo light only which has it's own connector. 3. I do have headlights, turnsignals, brake lights, dome light, high beams, wipers. The key turned to the forward position functions with all the related switches. Even the dimmer works on the one lit bulb (speedo)
I have checked coninuity on the multi pin harness and it's good. I have coninuity on the gauges as well. All the bulbs test out fine.
Prior to replacement the car started and I had very dim gauge light and none of the guages worked except the vacume guage. Speedo is disconected (still) need new cable.
Any thoughts?
I am new to the forum and I hope I can help out as well but electrical is not my cup of java. Thanks Steve
 
I can try to help you but only one thing at a time please. The ignition and starting has nothing to do with instrument cluster in electrical sense . They do cross paths mechanicaly though, here's how..
To remove the instrument cluster you first lower the steering column. If the car is column shift equiped you probably effected the linkage enough to loose the adjustment of your neutral safety switch when you lowered the column.
From here I dont know if the steering column is bolted back in place or if the instrument cluster is hanging from the harness connectors.
What do you want to fix first ?
 
Hi, Thanks for the reply. The car is a 4 speed and i have the bezal screws out and the bezal tilted forward. My main concern is that the ignition switch won't start the car. Thanks again
 
red67cuda said:
Hi, Thanks for the reply. The car is a 4 speed and i have the bezal screws out and the bezal tilted forward. My main concern is that the ignition switch won't start the car. Thanks again
Click to expand...

The instrument bezel needs a chassis ground . You may have already fryed some things like gauge voltage limiter. Grond the potmetal instrument housing to the dash before proceeding.
Oddly enough , if you pulled the hand brake, that indicator bulb would come on and with the headlights one the other dash lights would too but dont try this. Everything in the instrument cluster would attempt to ground through the switch on the park brake lever.
 
Thanks I will do this. Is the voltage limeter inside the fuel gauge? Otherwise I don't see it. I will ground the cluster and get back to you later today. I did think about this but it seemed to easy. I assumed the cluster made its own ground when in place. Thanks again
 
red67cuda said:
Thanks I will do this. Is the voltage limeter inside the fuel gauge? Otherwise I don't see it. I will ground the cluster and get back to you later today. I did think about this but it seemed to easy. I assumed the cluster made its own ground when in place. Thanks again
Click to expand...

The mounting screws make chassis ground all over these cars.
Yes the mechanical limiter is inside your fuel gauge. Regardless where it is located it needs a ground reference to operate properly. I've seen the pluged in can type blister the copper right off the circuit boards, more than once.
I still dont have an answer for the no start but I feel like neutral safety switch is somehow involved. You do have both wires connected to the amp gauge, right ?
Good luck
 
I have a 69 4spd in my 67 and there is no neutral safty switch, just back up light switch. I`m no autoelectric mechanic, but concerning the ign. switch, you know the run circut is good, just not the start circut. It seems you could use a test light to determine which terminal on switch is start circut and if you turn key and it does`nt light, trace wires from there. possibly a faulty switch if wireing checks ok. BTW redfish will be the "man" to whoop on your gremlin8)
 
Thanks again. So do I still need the ground wire on the pot metal part of the cluster? The car is a 4 speed so there is no nuetral safety switch. I have continuity from the starter switch all the way to the starter relay but it does not crank the starter. Before I removed the old cluster there was no starting problem. As soon as I removed the old bezel/gauges the car would not start with the key. Not sure if this helps clarify the situation.
 
You do have 12 V from the ign.switch to the starter relay when you turn the ign. switch in start mode?
When you jumped the starter relay, did you do this at the wires for the starter? or the ignition switch circuit?
 
Thanks for the input. I get my test light to turn on at the switch relay but I have not measured the voltage at the end of the ignition wire. I will check that. I can start the car by jumping at the switch relay with a screwdriver. I also bought a new relay switch but the new has the nuetral safety switch spade connector on it and my car is a 4 speed. should I attatch anything to that spade? ground? I am pretty sure my old switch is ok but was curious about the new one having the extra spade for NSS. Thanks again
 
Sounds like you have a starter relay for an automatic, exchange it for one for a manual. I agree with Redfish , it sounds like there`s no ground. You may have also pulled something loose when removing the instrument cluster, make sure your plugs to the back of the ignition switch and circuit boards are all still fully making contact. There are two positions when you turn the key to the right on your ignition switch, an "ON" position the first and a "START" position the second. Check to see you have 12 volts to the on postion wire (been a while but I think it`s the red wire?) and then see if it checks for 12 volts again in the start position (dark blue wire?) when you turn the the key to actually start the car. If it worked fine before removing the instrument panel then chances are it`s a ground or you`ve pulled something loose. One other place to check is at the bulkhead connector in the firewall, a lot of room for something to get loose there.
 
Try putting a spade on the NSS terminal of the starter relay and ground it by using the mounting screw. This eliminates the NSS. If your test light lights up at the yellow wire at the relay, It has to be either a bad relay or NSS. Even new the relays can be bad.
 
Thanks for the reply. I grounded the NSS spade and still no start. I also measured the voltage of the ignition switch start wire and only reading 9,6 volts. The battery reads 12. I also put my old relay back in which is correct and still no luck. All was good until I pulled the instrumnet cluster so it must be a ground or something else. I checked the ignition switch connection as well and it seems fine. the key will turn the car off after I jump start it at the relay as well. I am stuck!
 
This is a pic of the starter relay in my -67 4-speed.
If you jump a wire from the positive of the battery to the spade of the (arrow)yellow wire, then it should turn the starter, if not try to ground the relay housing.
If it (starter relay) got a fourth spade try to ground that one (nss).
The black wire goes to the starter solenoid. The red fat (not connected to the starter relay) one goes direct to the starter motor.
As Longgone mentioned, have a look at the bulkhead connector to see if you got a bad connection there. seems as you´re dropping a few volts there.
However 9.6 V might be enough to make the starter relay to "respond".

start relä 004.JPG
 
Lets imagine for a moment that the battery is about dead, 10 volts showing...
If the relay would function at that, the starter would not. To hold the key in the start position would simply cook the starter and finish killing the battery.
Must have been some engineering invloved.
 
RedFish said:
Lets imagine for a moment that the battery is about dead, 10 volts showing...
If the relay would function at that, the starter would not. To hold the key in the start position would simply cook the starter and finish killing the battery.
Must have been some engineering invloved.
Click to expand...

I agree. I´m jumping into conclusion here, assuming the battery is fine.
The battery could read 12 V and still be weak.
 
Ok, I put 12 volts to the switch spade on the relay and nothing happend. I then went back to my old relay (reinstalled it)which worked before I pulled the cluster and that one was not working as well. With 12 volts on the swich spade there was obviously no voltage at the starter lead. All this seems obvious that the relay switch is bad but I am just having a hard time understanding how mine went bad and why the new one does not work as well. I am sure I will figure this out soon. You are very helpfull and I appriciate your time. Thanks again Steve
 
Can low signal voltage damage a relay ? Probably, over time anyway.
I suggest you find out why the dash lights were dim as stated in your first post and why you later found less than 12 volts on that start signal wire.
Good luck
 
Battery should have over 12 volts, if charged. Check the wires in the column, think something was pulled loose.
 
I had my bezel restored this last winter so I just went through all this. (without the promblems though) I ran a short wire from the metal top support of the instrument bezel to the gauge housing, I then ran a wire from the gauge housing to ground so I'm well grounded.

I'm an electrical rookie myself so I can't offer much more than that.

Good luck...
 
Thanks, the battery is at about 12.5 volts. Newer optima. I checked the column harness connection and it was good. I am only getting about 9.5 volts through the starter switch wire which must be contributing to the issue. I am in agreement with Redfish and need to go back to square one when the problem started when I removed the cluster. I am not sure how to approach it but I guess I will one wire at a time :) Thanks
 
Ok Mr RedFish, I have begun to work the Gremlins out! After a good night sleep I went at it again today. The first thing I did was take apart my original relay switch. It appears that someone else had done a little solder work on the housing once before. I connected the relay out of the housing and used a proper ground wire and it fired right up with the key. YES! I then carefully put it back together and soldered a proper ground wire to the metal tab on the corner and grounded to the mounting bolt. All is good now. I proceeded to reinstall the instrument cluster ( w/ a good wire ground installed to the pot metal housing) and it still started. YES YES! Now I have to start with the gauge issues. The dash lights are lit but are dim. The only gauge working is amp gauge. This was also the case prior to removing the original cluster. I have also encountered a new problem in that the turn signals no longer flash. From what I have read and you have suggested I think maybe the Fuel gauge voltage regulator needs to be checked? I will also replace both flasher units as well. Let me know what you think. Again I thank you and everyone else who has helped over the past few days..
 
Mopar Muscle Magazine did a great article on repairing gauges on the rallye dashes. If you search their archives online you should be able to find it. It`s pretty much a play by play on how to check out everything in the cluster.
 
Mister RedFish ? Thats my dad LOL
Dim lighting and dead gauges are the 2 most common problems.
When only 1 of 2 or 3 gauges fails the problem would be that gauge or sender. When all related gauges fail you can just about bet their power supply is the problem ( you can tell by the wire connections that the amp gauge is not related to the other 3 ).
Their power supply is inside the fuel gauge and will need repair one way or another. How is up to you. So...
lets pull the instrument panel again and take it to the workbench. While its out for repairs, use a small nut and screw to attach the 2 amp gauge wires together and tape them.
I added a pic I call the DOH Factor. Please be very careful when handling these instrument panels. They are fragile !
Leave the headlight switch in the car. We'll use you multimeter to find the dim light problem. Please note.. there are only 4 bulbs used for illumination in the entire panel plus they have blue tint diffusers over them. Bright as possible wont be fantastic.

DOH! factor.JPG
 
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