Electrical Short - What Just Happened?!

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Hypnotoad

Hypnotoad

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Quick background info:

65 Valiant convertible 273.

6 weeks ago, I added a ready-to-run distributor, e-coil, electronic choke, Standard VR128 voltage regulator, and bypassed the ballast resistor. Also replaced all of the instrument cluster bulbs and cleaned contact points on the circuit board.

No problems whatsoever, until today. Here's what happened:

First startup of the day sounded like it always does.

Second startup hesitated, had a quick, odd clicking sound, then fired up.

Third startup had a longer fast clicking sound, then fired up.

Fourth startup attempt, and all electrical was dead.

I checked the battery, and it's got normal voltage.

Where do I begin troubleshooting this? I'm hoping that the clicking sound might provide a clue to someone out there who's much more experienced than this vintage car newbie.

Thanks!
 
Sounds like maybe a bad connection somewhere.
 
and all electrical was dead.
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ALL as in everything inside the car? grab your meter & seperate the bulkhead & see if the fusible link has continuity then reinstall bulkhead & go inside & check the ammeter connections. that'd get you started & holler back when you can. EDIT I'd clean the bulkhead terminals while you are at it. MORE EDIT I got sidetracked from K.I S.S.: clicking is classic-starter not recieving enough voltage, are you SURE the large cables/terminals are clean (including ground path-starter to block and neg cable from block to batt neg post) and the batt IS good correct?
 
Very first thing I'd do is check battery terminals. What do headlights do when you twist the starter? Try directly jumpering the starter relay, jumper the two largest exposed terminals. Make CERTAIN transmission is in park or neutral
 
You say the battery voltage was ok.
That does not mean that the battery is functioning to specs.

You can not check the battery without putting a load on it. This can usually be done by putting the meter on the battery and then turn on the lights. Or turn the key while measuring the voltage.

If one or more cells in the battery has OPENED, no longer has an internal connection, a battery can and usually will show 12 VDC or normal voltage for the battery.

If one or more of the cells is shorted, it will read a lower voltage without a load.

I can explain it but it would take me awhile to set up the basics of an electrical circuits. Which I am really not willing to do at this point in time, so trust me or don't
 
Sure sounds like a weak connection to me.
If it's not the battery itself as Pawned explained.

You wouldn't happen to have those temporary terminals on the battery cables do ya?

What the headlights do during all this is a HUGE clue.
 
Thanks for the pointers, guys. Given all the prompts about the battery, I went out this morning and checked the connections. They appeared to be pretty solid, but everything was still dead. No lights, no anything.

Still, I pulled the negative, reset it, and locked it down tightly. Problem solved, or so it seems.

I'll keep an eye on this, because I still have suspicions that the battery may be weak as Pawned alluded to.
 
Hypnotoad said:
Thanks for the pointers, guys. Given all the prompts about the battery, I went out this morning and checked the connections. They appeared to be pretty solid, but everything was still dead. No lights, no anything.

Still, I pulled the negative, reset it, and locked it down tightly. Problem solved, or so it seems.

I'll keep an eye on this, because I still have suspicions that the battery may be weak as Pawned alluded to.
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Cool.
Where in AZ are you?
I'm up by Prescott.
 
Currently in Phoenix (and have been for the last 35 years), but planning on making a cross-country move early next year.
 
Hypnotoad said:
Currently in Phoenix (and have been for the last 35 years), but planning on making a cross-country move early next year.
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I am up by Tatum and Bell. Where are you located? If you are not really far, I could stop by and give you a hand.

Or if you have it running, you could bring it over here and we can check it out. I have all my tools and wires here so it is easier to fix something, without running out for parts.

Either way, let me know.

BTW I have all the schematics for the Valiants back to 1967. It may be helpful
 
Still, I pulled the negative, reset it, and locked it down tightly. Problem solved, or so it seems.
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In order: clean the post/terminal interface. bad cable (corroded, hidden between terminal/strands on molded cables, happens on overseas cheap cables alot). bad battery (worn out/sulphated/loose post (the neg one you were physically working with). Holler how it turns out.
 
Well, I spoke too soon. Problem not solved. I went out to start the car this morning, gave one turn of the key, and all electrical was dead again.

So, I'm going to try a new battery first, and if that doesn't help, I will investigate the other suggestions in this thread.
 
Hypnotoad said:
Well, I spoke too soon. Problem not solved. I went out to start the car this morning, gave one turn of the key, and all electrical was dead again.

So, I'm going to try a new battery first, and if that doesn't help, I will investigate the other suggestions in this thread.
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Well I can plead with you, or act like the teacher in class, or just get plain mean

WHAT DOES IT TAKE to get you guys to pick up some tools (meter and a test lamp) and stop throwing expensive parts at a problem?

Do some testing!!!!

Or.........maybe you have a C you can throw at the car. Just buy a new battery

Now...........I understand the frustration, ..........been there.........But how frustrating is it gonna be when you dump a hunner'd bucks 'o battery in there and........it won't start?

"Whut you need" for electrical testing

1...Two people, or a starter remote switch, which you can make

2...A multimeter which nowadays you can buy for 30 bucks.

3...A 12V test lamp

4...Some alligator jumper leads. You used to be able to buy these at Radio Shack, but you can still get them off ebay, Mouser Electronics, Digikey

==============================

Rig the remote switch, or have an assistant who can twist the key.

"Stab" the probes directly into the tops of the battery POSTS. Twist the key and take a reading. If the voltage goes below 10V, the battery is either DISCHARGED or DEFECTIVE

What do you ALWAYS do first? Charge it, of course!!! It might be DEAD, which is very different from DEFECTIVE

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Battery has been on the charger, rerun the test above: If voltage is ABOVE 10V and engine will not crank,

Move your probes to the starter relay "big stud" and to the engine block. Attempt to crank the engine. Should be above 10V. NO? Check the CABLES and the battery post connections.

How? EASY.

Listen. Frying sound? Bad connection. Look for smoke, feel for heat. Use your METER. Put one probe on the battery pos. post, the other probe right next to it on the battery clamp. Crank the engine. Should be less than .1V (1/10 of one volt) If more, remove and clean the clamp

Put one probe on the battery post. Put the other probe on the far end of the cable, at the starter, or starter relay, wherever it goes. Crank the engine. If more than .1V you have a bad cable, IF the clamp test right above tested good.

=======================

Repeat this for the NEG cable.

========================

You can modify the procedure, jump "right to" the starter. Put one probe on the engine block, the other probe onto the starter main terminal. With engine trying to crank, shouldbe above 10V. If you had "good" voltage at the battery and low here, you know you have a bad cable or bad connection.

If you have plenty of voltage at the starter stud, but it will not crank, replace the starter.
 
67Dart273 said:
Well I can plead with you, or act like the teacher in class, or just get plain mean

WHAT DOES IT TAKE to get you guys to pick up some tools (meter and a test lamp) and stop throwing expensive parts at a problem?

Do some testing!!!!
Click to expand...

Fair enough! Will attempt to tackle this before I head out of town tomorrow. Otherwise, I'll do it on Sunday.
 
Harbor Freight sells digital multi-meters for as little as $5.99. Or get one of their ads that they give away the meters for just coming in.
 
Following up with some good news. I've been driving the car for the last week without any troubles, and wanted to give it some time before I reported back. Here's what I ended up testing & doing based on 67dart273's advice upthread:

Battery off: 12.X
Starter relay: 12.X
Starter: 12.X

Yet getting the car to crank was consistently the problem because I had no electric whatsoever. The only thing that would bring back the electrical was disconnecting the battery cables and reseating them. Every single time.

Using that as a clue, I inspected the cables more carefully. Both clamps were a little loose and had some play. I took them apart, sanded/brushed the wires, scraped away corrosion, and even sanded the ground to the engine block. I reassembled everything tightly, and it's started every single time since. On top of it, startup is almost effortless. In the past, if I had let the car sit for a few days, it would take a couple of cranks to get it going. Now, it fires right up.

I appreciate everyone's help. Sincerely.
 
You are welcome. Learning to do some simple tests will save you money in the long run. "Sometimes" throwing money at it makes sense. Let's say, maybe it's the connections, but the battery is 5 years old anyway. Maybe you would not feel so bad if you "threw" a new battery in and that wasn't really the problem.

As an old guy (67) I've been fooled a few times by "appearance" connections. About three years ago, my 86 Ranger would not start. The cables looked GREAT!! But down where the ground cable tapped off to hook to the frame, and went on to the engine block, it was all corroded inside the cable jacket. A few voltmeter tests soon showed up "where this had" to be.
 
Hypnotoad said:
The only thing that would bring back the electrical was disconnecting the battery cables and reseating them. Every single time.

Using that as a clue, I inspected the cables more carefully. Both clamps were a little loose and had some play. I took them apart, sanded/brushed the wires, scraped away corrosion, and even sanded the ground to the engine block. I reassembled everything tightly, and it's started every single time since.
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LOL, remember this question from post 7?

"You wouldn't happen to have those temporary terminals on the battery cables do ya?"

The problems you were describing were exactly what happens with a bad connection.
 
TrailBeast said:
LOL, remember this question from post 7?
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Definitely. I had to go look for pictures of temporary terminals to see if I had them. Of course, I found 800 different options, and got more confused. Stupid internet.
 
Hypnotoad said:
Definitely. I had to go look for pictures of temporary terminals to see if I had them. Of course, I found 800 different options, and got more confused. Stupid internet.
Click to expand...

Temporary terminals are those stupid things that have the little strap of metal over the top of the bare cable to hold it to the lead part that goes over the batter posts.
Still, even if you don't have those your symptoms were exactly as if you did have those connections but one or both were not connecting well.

A little diagnostic trick for you, is that when something like a battery terminal is the cause the offending terminal will usually be warmer than the other. (sometimes even hot enough to burn you, so touch quickly at first)

Also an intermittent total loss of power for no apparent reason that happens when you try to start the engine is almost ALWAYS a bad connection at the battery, starter or ground points of the battery cables.

This is the kind that are about the worst ones, and you can see why in this picture.
Look at the condition of the cables where they go under the strap, and I'll bet you anything this guy had the same problems you did.
 

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Hypnotoad said:
Following up with some good news. I've been driving the car for the last week without any troubles, and wanted to give it some time before I reported back. Here's what I ended up testing & doing based on 67dart273's advice upthread:

Battery off: 12.X
Starter relay: 12.X
Starter: 12.X

Yet getting the car to crank was consistently the problem because I had no electric whatsoever. The only thing that would bring back the electrical was disconnecting the battery cables and reseating them. Every single time.

Using that as a clue, I inspected the cables more carefully. Both clamps were a little loose and had some play. I took them apart, sanded/brushed the wires, scraped away corrosion, and even sanded the ground to the engine block. I reassembled everything tightly, and it's started every single time since. On top of it, startup is almost effortless. In the past, if I had let the car sit for a few days, it would take a couple of cranks to get it going. Now, it fires right up.

I appreciate everyone's help. Sincerely.
Click to expand...
This is why everybody who wishes to repair their own electrical problems should know how to do a voltage drop test. In your case, if you put a voltmeter on both battery posts and note the reading when somebody turns the ignition key to start. If you then move the positive meter lead to the battery cable and do the same test, it will show less voltage. Or, to put it another way, keep the positive meter lead on the positive battery post and move the negative meter lead to the positive battery cable and read the voltage when cranking the engine. The meter reading will show any lost voltage at that point. Doing this on both the positive and the ground sides of the battery to starter circuit takes all of two minutes. This type of test can be used on any electrical circuit but it must be done with the circuit loaded.
 
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