Just FYI on ECU's They need to be matched for optimal performance.
Electronic ignition upgrade.
- Thread starter rymor92
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Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Like I said, if you think you need an upgrade (you don't) then go to a CD ignition. I'll say it again, the HEI is NOT an upgrade over the Chrysler ignition.
Your 360 isn't going to require anything more than what you have. Unless you need a 2 step or a high speed retard or something else along those lines, the Chrysler ignition is hard to beat.
Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
Get what you want, you've already made up your mind. Doubtful you will notice ANY difference over a correctly curved Chrysler ign. with a good box, except that your wallet will be a lot lighter.
What people are trying to tell you is not that the Chrysler ignition is just "okay", but that there are few if any systems that are an improvement. As I said before, the HEI is a good ignition and I'm not dissing it- but what you have is already every bit as good for your purposes.
If you're just looking to spend money, go this route:
Hunt H2 All MoPar V8 's Internal Coil Rare Earth Magnets 4 amps
You can arc weld with it.
Exactly. These cats come on here asking our advice. We give it freely of our own time. Then they do the opposite. Oftentimes they come back crying about how they can't get their junk to run again. I'm like you. His mind was made up before he ever opened this thread.
So to the original poster, go for it!
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Ant
Well-Known Member
I agree with the other posts here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If you do want an to go the HEI route, there should be other reasons too. You could focus on optimizing the rest of the system, like going with lower resistance plug wires, making the plug wires the correct length(shorter = less resistance), using the correct spark plugs, maybe recurve the timing advance and making sure all your connections are good.
If you do want an to go the HEI route, there should be other reasons too. You could focus on optimizing the rest of the system, like going with lower resistance plug wires, making the plug wires the correct length(shorter = less resistance), using the correct spark plugs, maybe recurve the timing advance and making sure all your connections are good.
I see all these guys bragging about HEI this and HEI that.....and a lot of them I have respect for. But I've worked on the line in dealerships when all this stuff was still new. I can tell you from experience that one is not really better than the other. Ford's Duraspark for example, is every bit as good. I've seen some of all the big makes electronig ignition be it Chrysler, GM, Ford or AMC (Ford) go quicker than 10 seconds. Some cars are out there running in the 8s with the Mopar style ignition. HEI or MSD my ***.
Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
And then it ends up for sale because they can't get it to run right and just got their doors blown off by a Smart car. I shoulda just LSed it.
Right. And they think we're full of **** when we tell these stories, but, you, I and most all these guys on this thread have seen it happen first hand more than a few times. I'll just start telling people to run the Fisher Price ignition system. lol
The reason people come back crying that the aftermarket stuff isn’t working is a lot of the time they didn’t do the research for their setup and just bought the biggest name or what they saw on tv. No matter what I have to spend money. As some else said about selling because they can’t it to run. That’s how I got this car seller changed stuff and got mad and sold it. Once I got home I got it running in an hour.
I have to spend money either way as a lot of the parts on here are just your basic auto store replacements. That’s one major reason I said reliable. Yes it’s working now but it’s all newer so how long will they actually last is the problem. I have no problem running mopar performance ignition but as stated I’ll still be spending money. So to buy the dui tri power vs upgrade and custom tune mine will be close in price. The tri power will clean it up and give me less parts to break is what I’m thinking. But I’m between these two options.
I have to spend money either way as a lot of the parts on here are just your basic auto store replacements. That’s one major reason I said reliable. Yes it’s working now but it’s all newer so how long will they actually last is the problem. I have no problem running mopar performance ignition but as stated I’ll still be spending money. So to buy the dui tri power vs upgrade and custom tune mine will be close in price. The tri power will clean it up and give me less parts to break is what I’m thinking. But I’m between these two options.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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And another thing about the factory ignition; IF it does breakdown, 500 miles from home, parts are only as far away as the nearest period mopar. If you go to a Mopar car-show, chances are that every second car in the show has a spare of whatever you didn't bring.
The only part I carry a spare of is the Pick-up, and NOT because they fail; rather because, they have the potential to fail, first.
I've been driving Muscle-car era Mopars, almost continuously since 1970, and in all those over fifty years, the only failures I have had are; one pick-up, one Ecu, and two resistors.
In a pinch;
> you can run both the ECU and the coil off the same resistor, and
> in a bigger pinch, you can run the coil straight off the battery
> and, one time I had an aftermatket EVR fail, full-fielding the alternator, which then pumped out over 20volts, meaning that after the ballast, the ECU was probably running at least 50% of that and the coil more like 70%. Moparchit is tough. I replaced that EVR, with one from my bin of well-used parts.
OP, in my experience, any period Mopar will run off any period ECU, to at least 4000/5000 rpm; number of cylinders means nothing. All the ECU does is amplify and translate the tiny voltage coming out of the pick-up, into something the coil understands.
The only part I carry a spare of is the Pick-up, and NOT because they fail; rather because, they have the potential to fail, first.
I've been driving Muscle-car era Mopars, almost continuously since 1970, and in all those over fifty years, the only failures I have had are; one pick-up, one Ecu, and two resistors.
In a pinch;
> you can run both the ECU and the coil off the same resistor, and
> in a bigger pinch, you can run the coil straight off the battery
> and, one time I had an aftermatket EVR fail, full-fielding the alternator, which then pumped out over 20volts, meaning that after the ballast, the ECU was probably running at least 50% of that and the coil more like 70%. Moparchit is tough. I replaced that EVR, with one from my bin of well-used parts.
OP, in my experience, any period Mopar will run off any period ECU, to at least 4000/5000 rpm; number of cylinders means nothing. All the ECU does is amplify and translate the tiny voltage coming out of the pick-up, into something the coil understands.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Some people just won’t understand improving things. Saying what you have will be enough or better than I need. That’s just crazy to me, there is always something else out there that you can improve with. That’s like saying my 318 that has no issues and runs great with only 37k on it is good enough. No no it not. That’s why it’s getting a built 360. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to make there cars better or try something new. It’s not your money so why are you worried about it, not every build is a budget build.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
I've switched over a few mopars to a 4-pin HEI module from chrysler ECUs when the ECU gave up. They all seem to have started faster and idle cleaner. Who knows, maybe it was just a placebo effect. Lots of ways to skin a cat with this one. As Rob used to say - pick your parts, pay your money. Wish he was still around here.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Then go buy a real ignition and stop
pining away for an ignition that isn’t better than what you have.
Somehow you think your 360 is going to rotate the earth and needs more ignition.
I’m ALL FOR the biggest ignition you can buy. Go buy it. But that’s not what YOU asked.
Now that you’ve asked and it’s been answered you aren’t liking the answer. I’ll say it again.
THE HEI IS NOT AN UPGRADE OVER WHAT YOU HAVE. Period.
If you want to piss away money on a system that isn’t a nickel better than what you have then knock yourself out.
If you want a real upgrade, see if you can find a used Mallory 685 box or a 667C or S box.
You can use an MSD but I won’t use a 6 box from MSD unless it’s one of the programmable boxes.
If not, use an MSD7.
Those would be upgrades. The HEI is NOT.
Well in my case, my car is a 68, I'm using an electronic era distributor to trigger an HEI. "hidden" black HEI module is less noticeable than an orange box under the hood. While NO, not much under there is stock anyway, there's one less thing jumping out at you.
I went the HEI route ONLY after A LOT of people on this site touting it as THE way to go,- seems to be something of a reversal of opinions
I went the HEI route ONLY after A LOT of people on this site touting it as THE way to go,- seems to be something of a reversal of opinions
Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
THAT is the whole point that people are trying to tell you- what you propose is not necessarily an improvement. It's just something different.
Put a Jesel belt drive on it with a cam-driven distributor. Put a crank trigger on it with coil on plug. Way overkill for you, but those are improvements. Pay the piper, it's your money.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
i guess that's another way to improve your spark.
And I get tired of people dissing 318s simply because they're 318s. You have a 37k mile 318? Where can I come over and pick it up?
I've swapped more 360s out in favor of a 318 than the other way around...
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Get one that comes with stickers.
Not going for sale. It’s going up on a stand. For possible future use. I bought this car just to replace everything in it for better performance and handling but keep the classic original look. All original clean car.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Damn...that thing is NICE!!!
Rymor,
Take no notice of Newbomb Turk & his superb ignorance. If he actually knew anything about ign, he would know that HEI is an improvement. Look at FACTS.
[1] Over the decades, spark plug gaps have increased. Why? Because the greater exposure of the mixture to the bigger spark is more likely to ensure combustion takes place.
[2] GM recommended 060 plug gaps for most engines, some had 080 gaps. I have run 1/8"for the hell of it...
[3] Variable dwell [ VD ] is MOST important & more so as the number of cyls increase [ for an 8 cyl engine ]. I suspect the reason Chrys did not have VD is that the Motorola # MC3334 IC was not available when the ECU was designed. The primary winding of the ign coil takes time to reach it's max current value, [ & therefore max efficiency at transferring that energy to the sec winding ]....& creating a spark. With more cyls to fire [8] from ONE coil, that critical saturation time is reduced...time to start preparing for the next spark. This is where VD comes in. Since there is more time at low rpms to saturate the coil, the dwell is reduced. Dwell being the number of degrees of crank angle [ not time like many think ] that that the coil is on. With fixed dwell on a street driven car, the coil gets very hot at idle/cruising & that shortens the life of the coil. Also, the coil windings are made of copper. The hotter they get, the higher the resistance & the less power the coil produces. At higher rpms, a VD system starts the coil current earlier so that the coil has enough time to saturate. A very clever system.
[4] You can buy HEIs for all types of engines that never originally had HEI. From many manufacturers. None of those companies are making Chrys dist to use Chrys ECUs........Hmm.
[5] Any ign system that uses a bal res is not going to produce as much ign power as a system that uses a low resistance coil & NO BAL RES. The HEI coil gets the full 12v. The Chry coil gets about 7-8 v. The HEI coils are about 0.6 ohm; they are also E core coils, much more efficient than the Chrys canister coil. The Chrys coil is about 1.5 ohms. The formula for power [ Watts ] is voltage squared divided by the resistance. It is obvious the HEI system provides much more spark energy.
[6] The Chrys system eliminated points, which gave more reliable ign & increased tuning intervals. It was good in that respect. It did NOTHING to improve spark energy. Same coil, same bal res used as in the points system. Hence the limited 0.035 plug gap.
See below. HEI has 40% more voltage output & 85% higher energy level.
Take no notice of Newbomb Turk & his superb ignorance. If he actually knew anything about ign, he would know that HEI is an improvement. Look at FACTS.
[1] Over the decades, spark plug gaps have increased. Why? Because the greater exposure of the mixture to the bigger spark is more likely to ensure combustion takes place.
[2] GM recommended 060 plug gaps for most engines, some had 080 gaps. I have run 1/8"for the hell of it...
[3] Variable dwell [ VD ] is MOST important & more so as the number of cyls increase [ for an 8 cyl engine ]. I suspect the reason Chrys did not have VD is that the Motorola # MC3334 IC was not available when the ECU was designed. The primary winding of the ign coil takes time to reach it's max current value, [ & therefore max efficiency at transferring that energy to the sec winding ]....& creating a spark. With more cyls to fire [8] from ONE coil, that critical saturation time is reduced...time to start preparing for the next spark. This is where VD comes in. Since there is more time at low rpms to saturate the coil, the dwell is reduced. Dwell being the number of degrees of crank angle [ not time like many think ] that that the coil is on. With fixed dwell on a street driven car, the coil gets very hot at idle/cruising & that shortens the life of the coil. Also, the coil windings are made of copper. The hotter they get, the higher the resistance & the less power the coil produces. At higher rpms, a VD system starts the coil current earlier so that the coil has enough time to saturate. A very clever system.
[4] You can buy HEIs for all types of engines that never originally had HEI. From many manufacturers. None of those companies are making Chrys dist to use Chrys ECUs........Hmm.
[5] Any ign system that uses a bal res is not going to produce as much ign power as a system that uses a low resistance coil & NO BAL RES. The HEI coil gets the full 12v. The Chry coil gets about 7-8 v. The HEI coils are about 0.6 ohm; they are also E core coils, much more efficient than the Chrys canister coil. The Chrys coil is about 1.5 ohms. The formula for power [ Watts ] is voltage squared divided by the resistance. It is obvious the HEI system provides much more spark energy.
[6] The Chrys system eliminated points, which gave more reliable ign & increased tuning intervals. It was good in that respect. It did NOTHING to improve spark energy. Same coil, same bal res used as in the points system. Hence the limited 0.035 plug gap.
See below. HEI has 40% more voltage output & 85% higher energy level.
MadScientistMat
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Also worth noting - HEI isn't the only ignition with variable dwell. The Bosch systems used on most early '80s European cars, Ford's TFI ignition module (the one that replaced the Duraspark), and pretty much everything fuel injected where the EFI computer had timing control integrated all used variable dwell. Variable dwell also removes much of the need to match the ignition box to the RPM range (at least until you get to the point you need a CDI) since the box can change its dwell with RPM. You won't see serious overheating issues with a properly working street box on the street, but try using a gold ignition box and its ballast in stop and go traffic and you'll run into heat issues. A good quality variable dwell ignition can pull off gold box behavior at high RPM and street box behavior at idle.
That said, it's an incremental improvement, and may not be a difference for your build. I would not bother swapping the distributor if you want HEI unless your distributor is damaged beyond repair - wiring a good quality module to your distributor and possibly swapping the coil are all it takes. And if you already have the advance curve dialed in, swapping the distributor means you now need to copy your advance curve into your new distributor to get it to run as well as the old one.
And there's a reason I put "have the advance curve dialed in" in bold. The right advance curve is a lot more important than the HEI vs Mopar ignition debate.
That said, it's an incremental improvement, and may not be a difference for your build. I would not bother swapping the distributor if you want HEI unless your distributor is damaged beyond repair - wiring a good quality module to your distributor and possibly swapping the coil are all it takes. And if you already have the advance curve dialed in, swapping the distributor means you now need to copy your advance curve into your new distributor to get it to run as well as the old one.
And there's a reason I put "have the advance curve dialed in" in bold. The right advance curve is a lot more important than the HEI vs Mopar ignition debate.
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